Looking for...

[johnl]

Jeff
I just did a quick search of about 100 miles of my home using http://www.searchtempest.com/
It searches craigs list and ebay within the area you specify. I found lathes as low as $50 that would work for turning awls and pens. I don't know where you are, but you might give it a shot. Over the years, I have picked up many nice items cheaply.
John Lewis

[frank_jones]

DW

We must not forget that Colin Barnsley at Woodware Repetitions is most certainly picking up the George Barnsley banner. Not only has he secured all the back stock which was available after the collapse of the old company, he has now gained control of the company name - George Barnsley & Sons Ltd.

I assume this means that, in the not too distant future, we will be able to order for example Barnsley awl blades on the web and settle the bill via PayPal!

As you say DW, there are some items which may never become economic for Colin and his team to make in the 21st Century. However, it is simply not true to start a posting with the phrase - “With Barnsley gone”. There are so few suppliers of quality tools. Wearing my UK hat, I may be a little biased, but we need such people if the trade is to survive.

For the record the details are :-

Colin Barnsley
Woodware Repetitions
47 Mowbray Street
Sheffield
S3 8EN
England
US Direct dial - 01144 1142726060

Hopefully before long I will be able to post again with an email address for Colin which ends in @georgebarnsleyandsons.co.uk

Frank Jones - HCC Member
frank.jones@noblefootwear.com

P.S. Jeff
I regularly warn people who contact me asking about getting started in hand shoemaking - be very careful it is a habit forming drug.

[lancepryor]

Athan:

As mentioned above, Edwin Hale offers the Barnsley tools; I don't know that, generally speaking, Colin wants to deal with small orders, so Edwin may be a better route to follow. Personally, I've had better luck with the Barnsley inseaming awls than those from Dick Anderson, which I've snapped quite easily (perhaps due to user error). Also, the Barnsley awls come in a range of sizes, which is nice given you might want different thread sizes as you start making more shoes.

That being said, Dick's awl hafts and his gimping attachment are great, and his customer service is wonderful, so you won't go wrong ordering from him either.


DW:

I happened to speak with Colin earlier today. He said that, over the past few years, they have assembled a significant number of old Barnsley items and hope to put a new catalogue out at some point. Hopefully we can support him, and in turn he will resume making some of the tools which are currently difficult or impossible to come by.

If anybody is looking for something, it might be worth a call to Colin, or call or e-mail Edwin.

Lance

(Message edited by lancepryor on November 04, 2009)

[dw]

Lance, Frank...

You are both 100% correct and I welcome your updates.

How long has it been since Geo. Barnsley (the original)closed shop? Two years? Three?

I talked to Colin shortly after that. However, I have not, till now, received any news or anything from Colin to give me hope. I am glad to hear that things are going forward.

I used to get a catalog from GB fairly regularly. I will be eager to see what has emerged from the transition.

And equally eager to tell students and anyone who needs to know where they can get good tools. If only, as you suggest, the awls...although I am not sure Barnsley has anything to do with their production...at least since I have been in business they were always stamped "King."

Lance, the first awl I had from Dick was also brittle. since then I think he's gotten better at tempering.

Bottom line...as the collapse of the old company so clearly illustrates...it's always smart to have an alternate source.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[jkrichard]

I just purchased a run of the Barnsley awls (various curved awls and several square awls) from Edwin Hale (Hale and Co.). Msr. Hale was quick to respond and reply, and quite the respectable gentlemen. I intend to keep him on my list of people to do business with on a regular basis (St. Crispin willing).

I like people who are on top of things and ready to conduct business. When I call finders and suppliers I call because I'm ready to pay their electric and utility bills.

My items have already been shipped by him, I will gladly post pictures when they arrive.

I am still waiting my curve awl, square awl, and hafts from Mr. Dick Anderson---those pictures forthcoming upon their arrival. I would love to recommend Mr. Anderson to anyone as well. We use his welting stands at Green Country (both sitting and standing), and several students swear by his awls. I'm all about keeping our local craftsmen and our 'mom 'n pop' shops in business.

John, DW, I'm going to keep my eye out in the local papers and Craig's List for lathes, excellent idea. Tulsa is a heavy machining industry city---and the economy's plunge has hurt a lot of businesses and caused a lot of auctions/sell outs.

Mr. Frank Jones, our instructor, Mr. Mike Dewitt, has always said, "bootmaking is a social disease." As far as making handmade shoes, I have already bitten into the core of that apple, and pretty hard. After Janne Melkersson's brief visit to our school, the invitation to apprenticeship with Marcell in March, and a day spent in Lisa Sorrell's shop, I have no question anymore as to the direction I'm heading: Tradition, Elegance, Excellence. The bar I have set for myself is ridiculously high...but why shoot for the Moon when the entire universe is waiting? I have thus far removed myself from machine use except for stitching uppers, and I'm practicing tempering/casing bends so I can stack my own heels.

...I suspect after time in Marcell's shop I will be able to fully make a shoe without peripheral assistance, or at least be able to curse at the leather in proper Hungarian (Magyar).


Well, I think I've babbled on sufficiently enough...

-Jeff

[btippit]

This will be a strange post for me. I'm working with a company that tells me years ago they used a substance for toe boxes where you just dipped the lasted shoe in the stuff and it set up when you pulled it out (don't know how long it took). No heat was needed to activate it. They can't remember the name but it doesn't matter because that stuff was banned due to cancer causing properties.

Their search now is for some substance that can be used to make fairly stiff toe boxes (these are ballet pointe shoes) but is not heat activated. Does anyone know of anything like this? Our friend Paul Krause suggested silastic and I will pass that on to them but if there is a "dip and set" product available that doesn't kill people (really bad for customer loyalty) I would appreciate any leads you can give me.

Bill “The Last Man Standing” Tippit
www.globalfootwearsolutions.com

[jkrichard]

Celastic is definitely 'dip and set,' Bill. The dip would be acetone. Once the acetone has fully evaporated from the celastic you can put it in a drying oven to speed the hardening process---otherwise it only takes a few hours to set for sanding and shaping.

As far as toxicology of acetone...



"Acetone toxicology: Acetone is believed to exhibit only slight toxicity in normal use, and there is no strong evidence of chronic health effects if basic precautions are followed.
At very high vapor concentrations, acetone is irritating and, like many other solvents, may depress the central nervous system. It is also a severe irritant on contact with eyes, and a potential pulmonary aspiration risk. In one documented case, ingestion of a substantial amount of acetone led to systemic toxicity, although the patient eventually fully recovered.Some sources estimate LD50 for human ingestion at 1.159 g/kg; LD50 inhalation by mice is given as 44 g per cubic meter, over 4 hours.

Interestingly, acetone has been shown to have anticonvulsant effects in animal models of epilepsy, in the absence of toxicity, when administered in millimolar concentrations.t has been hypothesized that the high-fat low-carbohydrate ketogenic diet used clinically to control drug-resistant epilepsy in children works by elevating acetone in the brain.

[btippit]

Wow. That was fast Jeffrey. Thanks. I'll pass this additional info along as my lack of knowledge on the subject led me to misunderstand Paul about how it was used. The toxicology info might scare them off as this is a small factory and not a one man shop so there would be liability issues to worry about. I believe Paul told me this was available from Panhandle Leather and upon further digging through the archives here I've seen a suggestion to use press cement, also available from the same place. Thanks again.

Bill

[jkrichard]

Also Bill,
Just a quick Google regarding custom toe caps for pointe shoes and their constructions ...

Here

Sorry not to get that in one shot--- an afterthought on patents after acetone toxicology... O.o

-Jeff

[jkrichard]

Bill, it is available from Panhandle, in large sheets IIRC. Proper ventilation and gloves, if they're especially cautious eye protection while handling...the acetone also evaporates rather rapidly so maintaining the top tightly on the lid while not in use to reduce waste.

As any company/factory maintaining operations within OSHA guidelines, they would likely have their employees familiar with any chemicals or solvents they are using in production...

and have their MSDS sheets ready and available for inspection.

They may also want to test the acetone (if they choose to use this method) on their fabrics to see if bleaching occurs...just as a point of caution.

I will be happy to send you instructions on how we use the stuff and apply it etc if you like.

*cough* Right?

Bill, we use acetone at Green Country and unless you are terribly careless with it...it's not nightmarish. What?! No, that's not a third arm growing from my mid-back!

-Jeff

(Message edited by JKRichard on November 04, 2009)

[jask]

From the description of a dip and set technique, I wonder if what they were using was not a cellulose acetate dip? AKA: press cement or celluloid cement this would also be dissolved with acetone ( or possibly M.E.K. back in the "good old days" ) most of the modern "Celastic" type materials are sheets. Cellulose acetate flakes are still readily available and easily used; some prosthetic facilities still use it as a cast sealer.

[btippit]

You guys have been most helpful. Thanks for the info on cellulose acetate flakes Jask. I found the website of a manufacturer (Rhodia). I think this will give them plenty to experiment with. Between press cement, celastic and the flakes they should come up with something that will work.

And thanks for the visual of the third arm Jeff. I should have no trouble sleeping tonight.

Bill

[dw]

Cellulose acetate or press cement is still available in various forms--the best I have found comes from Midwest Chemical. I have tried several other versions and due to the "plasticizers" introduced into the formulae, found them to either be too soft or taking too long to set and/or extremely noxious smelling. More than one of them literally made me nauseous.

All that said, I always seem to come back to the basic question: what in the world did the makers of pointe shoes do before there was celluloid cement or dips or plastics?

At some point it might be useful to know how to make shoes without having to rely on the petro-chemical industry and/or the destruction of the planet.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[artzend]

DW

I am pretty sure that the ballet shoe makers in Freeds when I was there, used some sort of heavy paste that they painted on. I re did their patterns but didn't spend any time watching them, sorry.

Tim

[jkrichard]

The Barnsley awls I ordered from Hale and Co are in:

10399.jpg

The curve awl set, 2 1/2", 2 3/4, 3, 3 1/4", 3 1/2"

10400.jpg

Square awls, 2 7/8", 3 1/8"

10401.jpg

...from another view.

Original photos can be found here...

Rick (et al), let me know if you need some better shots of the square awls.

-Jeff

[marcell]

I made ballet point shoes for years. Any question?
The paste we put on to the toe is dextrin (http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/5823/adhesive/82532/Starch-and-dextrin), heavy canvas and paper.
When I went back after 15 years to my former workplace the etchnical director who guided me to the abadoned workshop stil believed that we made the toe from solid wood.

[marcell]

Actually my tool maker's work. Sorry for tha bad quality pictures.

10403.jpg

10404.jpg

10406.jpg

(Message edited by Marcell on November 10, 2009)

[artzend]

Marcell

Thanks for that, I thought it was a thick paste. The makers in the factory had big brushes coated in the stuff but I never knew what it was back then.

Tim

[dw]

Marcel,

I like your toolmaker's work. The ferrule on the awl haft is sweet! Is he someone who works in your shgop or does he make tools for shoemakers all over Hungary or Eastern Europe?

Also thanks for the update on pointe shoes. I kind of figured it would be something like that.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[marcell]

He is a historic sword maker, making replicas for museums in Hungary. I just convinced him, that shoemaker's tools are much more important than weapons. But I must say: he is not fast at all (but at least perfectionist, like me).

[jkrichard]

10417.jpg

Awl haft courtesy of Mr. John Lewis (thank you John!); Barnsley awl courtesy Edwin Hale, Hale and Co.

[bill_t]

Hi all –

The first of what promises to be many dumb newbie questions.

Before starting in on any shoemaking, per se, I need to adjust some lasts to approximate my somewhat oddly shaped feet. I have a pair of US military plastic lasts (thank you, Rob) that need both some cutting and some substantial building up. Several people at the annual meeting suggested using Ortec to attach the leather (thank you, Lance) to the lasts.

I checked a couple of sources on line, and it’s clear that Atlas has no interest in selling things to a hobbyist such as me, and both Frankford and a local finder stated that they are not allowed to sell Ortec to anyone but businesses because its use is regulated.

So, does anyone out there have any ideas on how to procure a quart (I can’t imagine using a gallon quickly enough) of Ortec? Alternatively, is there a different adhesive that would serve as well and not require an FBI background check?

Thanks.

Bill

[paul]

Bill,

I use my sole rougher and Barge to attach a thin layer of split leather to my lasts, and then build up upon that.

Sole roughers and refills should still be available from s/r finders.

Paul

[dw]

Bill,

I'll second Paul...I don't think you need Ortec in particular.

I save scraps from insole shoulders and the bellies of bends in a bin near the area where I mod lasts.

I use Duall 88 and I just rough up the area of the last where I want the build up with coarse sandpaper...usually by hand. I split a piece of scrap with the splitter to about 5 or 6 iron and slop cement on it. Cement the last. Let dry and carefully position and press the leather to the last. Tap down and pare the edges of the scrap so that it merges with the lines of the last. Sometimes several layers are needed and trying to put too thick a piece of leather on the last is counter-productive as it will not conform to the several dimensions it must conform to to blend with the last. So more layers are better.

You can sand the leather on the finisher to blend the leather into the shape and lines of the last so that, in profile, it is not a "lump". Build-ups such as these need to follow the "fair curves" principle. You don't want your finished shoe/boot to look like a bag of dead kittens.

At that point I give the build-up several coats of press cement, sanding in-between coats. If the build-up is in an area where lasting or hammering might put some strain on it, drive a couple of tiny brads into the build-up before coating with press cement. I use blued wire toplift nails.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[jkrichard]

Rick (et al),
The Dick Anderson awls and hafts have arrived!

10444.jpg

Top is the curve on maple haft. Bottom is cocobola haft with square awl.

10445.jpg

Also, I want to give a special, special thank you to John Lewis...who pulled through for me with a collection of walnut hafts from my hometown of Memphis (it was a sentimental thing for me). These will get fitted with the rest of the Barnsley awls from Hale and Co tomorrow.

10446.jpg