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[woollymane]

Thanks Courtney!

[dw]

All,

I recently ran across a website that sells Japanese woodworking tools. They offer knives that look remarkably like the shoemaking knives that were offered by Barnsley for over a hundred years.

The big difference is that there are several iterations that feature a thin layer of hard blue steel hammer-welded to a softer "backbone." This is a traditional Japanese sword making technique and some of the more esoteric of these knives can run hundreds of dollars.

The more common "utility" versions are very reasonable--a tenth of the more expensive knives. Also the technique allows for a very sharp edge that will hold for a long period of time but, because of the softer layer is easier to sharpen.

Anyway, I thought I would pass this along:

Here are two links to the site...the first for the knives, the second for instructions on how to sharpen them:

knives

sharpening instructions

I intend to purchase one or more of these knives myself. but like a lot of new sources there is no guarantee and YMMV

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[dw]

Try this pafge for more variety:

all knives

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[lancepryor]

DW:

I ordered a couple of the marking knives -- one in a left handed bevel, the other in a right -- a few years ago. I don't think they carried the 'leather knife' then. A couple of comments about the ones I ordered. First, they are hardened to a very high hardness (Rockwell 64), so trying to sharpen them on something like an oilstone will be VERY difficult. I have some Japanese waterstones which are much more effective on hard steel. Second, the laminated knives are pretty thick behind the edge, so while they can get very sharp, the thickness of the knife behind the edge can reduce the ease with which they cut stiff leather or even skive; working from memory, I would say the knives are at least 3/16" thick at the spine, and this on a knife which is less than 3/4" wide. They can be thinned to change the profile behind the edge, but this is a fair amount of work. I have pretty much discontinued using these knives, since my knives from Tina and Barnsley have much thinner blades.

Lance

[jon_g]

Interesting site. I've got one of those pattern knives that I inherited somewhere along the way and I'm with Lance on the thickness although grinding might be worth it to have something as pretty as that Damascus steel knife

[dw]

Lance, Jon,

Thank you for those comments. The thickness is an issue. One that makes me think twice about ordering. You have to love the forum if only for that.

I have one of the leather knives and like it very well...I don't know why but I thought the woodworking knives would be about the same thickness.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[piper]

I would like to make shoes from fabric, specifically synthetic (nylon?), breathable almost mesh-like fabric. Not cotton or wool. Something like running shoes. Trouble is, I do not know what this fabric might be called or where to find it (retail, not wholesale). Any suggestions?

[romango]

Diane,

Try http://www.therainshed.com/

They have all sorts of action fabrics.

[elfn]

I've made uppers out of heavy felted wool and cordura over a good quality pig skin lining with a single piece stabilizer for the bottom and perimeter of the foot. I wear them every day but I don't think they will hold up over the long run. I doubt the uppers will last long enough to require resoling.

Nori

[janne_melkersson]

Here's the link to more useful tools http://www.flobyoverskottslager.nu/verktyg.htm

In the Thors hammer section the shoemaking hammer is third from left. In the knife section E.A. Bergs bended (left/right) and straigt version will be seen.

A set of a shoemaking hammer and a knife i about $50 plus shipping.

I can tell you I have been using them in every pair i made so far and they works.

Janne

[janne_melkersson]

ps click on
"Som Du ser, mängder av hammare, special ex: Geologhammare..." and the shoemaking hammer will be third from left
Janne

[piper]

The rainshed site looks good, but how do I know which fabric is the right kind? What should I look for?

[romango]

Well, that's always the problem... even with leather. Your best bet is to call and tell them what you are trying to do.

This type of fabric is very cheap compared to leather. Maybe you could buy a few 1/2 yards of promising sounding stuff.

[kemosabi]

Looks like they sell swatch sets for all their fabrics.
In the upper left of their page click on: Fabric/Swatch sets.
Packs of up to 20 and 30 swatches for a buck.

Rick,
Do you buy fabric from them?
If so, what kind do you like?

-Nat

[romango]

I live very close to them and I have purchased Thinsulate, Gortex and a few web type fabrics like you see in sneakers. I don't know what they are called.

[dw]

High Carbon Steel Skiving Knives Redux

After talking to the very nice folks at JapanWoodWorking and explaining my/our needs, Jack sent me this link:

violin knives

Now these look pretty good. And they are just a tidge over 2mm thick.

Also here's another sharpening tutorial that has some good information.

sharpening

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

(Message edited by dw on April 14, 2011)

[dearbone]

DW,

IMHO,Tools for different trades are made/tempered differently,A shoe maker knife is of softer steel than the woodworking knife/chisel.For sharpening knives, fine emery cloth is way better than sandpaper,sand paper will tear much easier than emery cloth, I have been looking for a fine natural stone for years like the one my mentor had probably brought with him form east Europe where the finest stone come from,i recently bought a sharpening stone form cordwainers tools,i thought it might be as fine as my mentor stone,So sharping with emery cloth, honing it with rouge leather strip,I can get a good edge sharp enough for skiving,I recently bought a 10mm and 15mm wide Tina knives and the temper is good.

Nasser

[dw]

Nasser,

Well, here I have to disagree. Shoemakers knives tend to be softer temper because many makers don't want to spend any time sharpening their sharpening skills.

A good knife is a good knife and the really critical issues with knives...aside from thickness, length, etc....revolve around how hard the steel is (temper) and how well it will take and hold an edge.

Too soft a temper and while it may take an edge quickly and easily, it will not hold. Too hard and it will be harder to sharpen...might even be brittle...but once sharp will hold that edge for a long time.

And all things being equal the sharper knife will be the harder tempered knife.

^IMO...

I use emery paper and I agree with you 100%. But I also have and use some very nice Arkansas stones in a variety of coarseness and I really think that for excellent edges that's the way to go.

One of the things that struck me as important in the above tutorial was the assertion that water stones will wear away and so lose the flatness that is so essential to maintaining a consistent bevel...whereas a good oilstone will remain flat and even throughout its life.

I have a number of Tinas and some Bergs...and a special knife that I had custom made for me that is made of "hi-speed" steel alloy. Supposedly you can even "burn" the edge without losing temper. It is hard to sharpen but when sharp I can depend on it to skive cleanly and easily for literally months. One of my all time favourites.

Surprisingly enough...or maybe not so surprising...I have a knife made in Hungary (courtesy of Marcel) that I like as well or better than any of the Tinas I have. It seems a little crudely made by comparison but it will hold an edge.

Anyway, different strokes...some folks swear by utility knives that use old fashioned razor blade.

As my old dad used to say "there's no accounting for taste."

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[janne_melkersson]

This is what i am using for sharping all my tools. http://www.dianova-ab.se/products.php?c=340

It is made of industry diamonds and together with the leather strap Nasser mentioned about you get the knife sharp. To bad the site is not in English becasue there is alot of talk on how to use it. The one I use cost 206 Swedish kronor and you get one rough and fine side.

Janne

[dw]

Janne, Nasser, all...

I don't speak or read Swedish so I'm not sure exactly what is being described on Janne's link, but if you're looking for diamond stones, or hones, try here:

diamond stones

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[dearbone]

DW,Jan,

I was at Lee valley some years ago and this fellow who worked there convinced me to buy a diamond stone after swearing how good they were,it is somewhere in the shop,i will dig it out for another try,maybe there is a technique on how to use them properly that i am missing,but i watched my mentor collects the knives of everyone i the shop once a week and use the sander fine wheel for through rough sharpening and than uses a fine rounded hand stone to hone,So sharp were his knives that the shop master who is our pattern maker and who mostly works at night used to take the old man knives and uses them and that got me in trouble with him in the morning so many times and all along he knew it was the shop master and not me who was taking his knives. Some old memories about knives that don't go away.

Nasser

[lancepryor]

Over the past couple of years, I have become quite interested in Japanese knives and, by necessity, the sharpening of same. Traditional Japanese knives are single-bevel, and there are literally dozens, if not scores, of fine Japanese knife smiths. Also, the Japanese knife makers have seemingly experimented with a much wider range of steel formulations than their European counterparts. In general, Japanese knives are hardened to a much greater extent than European knives, and the different steels have carbide structures that may allow finer edges and/or longer edge retention. Finally, the Japanese knives are typically sharpened with much finer angles (e.g. as low as 10 degrees on a side, versus the 20 degrees plus per side of the German makers). The sharpness of the knives is critical to successful execution of the types of cuts and desired texture so important to Japanese cuisine.


Experts who sharpen the Japanese knives use waterstones almost exclusively -- these stones cut fast and are offered in a huge range of grit sizes, allowing for extremely finely finished edges. The downsides are that, as previously mentioned, they do lose their flatness and, hence, need to be flattened with something like a diamond stone, and some of them need to be soaked before use. However, based on my experience, they are nevertheless worthwhile. For shoemaking, something like a Bester 1000 or 1200 grit stone would be sufficient (available here: http://www.chefknivestogo.com/besterstones.html), along with a diamond stone to flatten the Bester. (for example, this: http://www.sierratradingpost.com/p/,3587T_Smiths-Diamond-Bench-Stone-6x25-.html).


The diamond stones can also be useful for dealing with edges that are badly dinged (from those pesky lasting nails, etc) and for changing bevel angles. The guys I have read typically don't use the diamond stones for finish sharpening, as they don't like the way they leave the edges, and the diamond stones don't typically offer a fine enough grit for their tastes (although DMT do now make an extra extra fine diamond stone).

Here is a sub-forum on sharpening from a knife forum: http://www.knifeforums.com/forums/showforum.php?fid/48/

Lance

[tomo]

All,
My old dad taught me how to sharpen knives and scissors right from when I was a kid. In all the shops I've worked I picked up stuff (techniques or methods) but I always got the job of sharpening.

I agree with DW about temper. When you heat a piece of steel (a knife you may have made) and to the correct temperature (colour), it's then quenched in oil (water makes it too brittle) this makes it hard. The next step is to heat it again until it is the desired temperature - usually a lesser heat than the first time, where it is quenched again. This second heating/cooling sets the temper or 'lets it down', which is really producing the 'toughness'.

The harder the steel the softer the stone you need to use. This is because the hard steel is wearing the stone, but in doing so new facets of stone are always at the fore and so the hard steel is ground down (sharpened). Unfortunately the best way to check for softness is too use it and you'll feel the drag straight away but you can't do that in a shop (store). A hard stone, no matter what grit feels 'slick' when you use it. A soft stone feels nice like ..... velvet sort of, hard to discribe.

I got a couple of Knives (Hyde) and they are hopeless to try and keep an edge on. The best knife I have was some cheap thing with a boxwood handle that was in a load of tools I bought second hand.

You can sharpen a knife to a lessor angle and it will cut better BUT the edge won't stand up as well, that is if you hit a nail or another tool you're more likely to put a nick in it. A steeper angle will be harder to damage but won't cut as nicely.

Regardless as to weather you use an oil stone or water stone, you need to use as much of the surface area as you can. This will help stop valleys forming in it.

You can 'dress' a damaged stone by rubbing two together so that the high spots are worn off.

T.

(Message edited by Tomo on April 15, 2011)

[amuckart]

Sharpening is certainly a topic amongst almost anyone who uses edged tools that causes a lot of debate, not just amongst wood and leatherworkers either, you should see the arguments sword collectors have about it!

I find it interesting because the technical aspects of it are entirely subject to scientific analysis. The manual techniques employed are also subject to analysis, but there is a large degree of skill involved doing it freehand, and absent immense steadiness of hand it is unlikely most people can sharpen as well freehand as they can with a jig.

The best print book I have found is Leonard Lee's Book of Sharpening. The best online resource I have found is Brent's Sharpening Pages at http://www3.telus.net/BrentBeach/Sharpen/index.html

That page is excellent for explaining what is happening to the edge at each stage of sharpening, which is critical to understand when selecting a sharpening medium.

There are only three factors that affect how good something is as a sharpening medium, grit size, grit consistency, and how well it matches the shape of what you're sharpening. What the grit is made of will affect how fast it cuts the steel off the edge, and the degree to which the grit breaks down, but that's it.

Grit consistency is especially important at low grit sizes used for honing, less so at the larger sizes used for grinding. If there's smaller grit floating around that's not a problem, but coarser grits are all bad.

Diamond stones are excellent for grinding, but not so great for fine honing because the grit sizes don't go that small. Japanese water stones come in a huge range of grit sizes and remove material very fast but need flattening regularly (which is a task for which diamond stones are perfect)

The 3m paper mentioned in the website above is the most consistent and smallest grit easily available anywhere - it is finer than jewellers rouge and more consistent - and the edges that can be created with it and a decent jig are terrifyingly sharp. It is also available in belts for 1" belt grinders.

[amuckart]

One thing I'm curious about with those violin maker's knives is whether the fact that they're straight is an issue. I thought a lot of skiving knives like that were curved.