Fitting the Foot

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Re: Fitting the Foot

#476 Post by dw »

@nickb1,

The addition of "three full sizes" to LOF in order to establish SLL is an old, old convention. It works...kind of...for mid range sizes and mostly men's shoes.

But a "full size" is always one immutable thing--usually one third of an inch.

So to Sabbage and a lot of other makers, it quickly became clear that three full sizes was a larger proportion of a very short foot length than it was of a longer foot length.

In my experience, that realization is just about the most reasonable concept that has ever been imagined esp. because it can usefully be applied to every foot.

And that brings us to whether the same technique apples equally to men's and women's feet/shoes.

The question is "Why wouldn't it?" The whole concept is tailor made to deal with relative proportions. If a man's foot is very short why would you apply a different standard than if it were longer. If a man's foot were as short as a woman's foot, what changes? If a woman's foot is as long as a man's foot why would we treat it differently? The nub of the thing is that Sabbage's Sectionizer deals with feet rather than gender or convention.

I suspect that the convention of regarding men's and women's shoes differently comes from manufactured RTW shoes and standardized lasts, and is a kludge to deal with those relative proportions without having to actually deal with the implications. Bespoke makers deal with feet, manufacturers deal with lasts with little to no regard for actual feet.

So...your second question. This can be a matter of judgement. First, the chances are good that your customer has never had a bespoke fit and is used to wearing shoes made on lasts that are mirror identical. So if the discrepancy between the footprint and the bottom paper is not too great, it can be ignored as long as the girths are correct. The upper may 'overhang' the insole slightly but the shoe will not necessarily be uncomfortable. Of course, this assumes that the ball girth on both feet are correct...or near-as-nevermind.

I,personally, have great respect for the medial side of the foot. Barring foot problems, the foot will not spread to the medial side much if any. A normal foot and a normal gait pushes the bones and the flesh laterally simply because that's where in the gait that most of the weight of the body is carried.

So I always put most if not all of any wanted build up on the lateral side. My teacher always said 1/3 medial, 2/3 lateral in reference to building up in the forepart (specifically the toe). I tend to generally agree with that formula although I might favour the lateral aspect a bit more. It's a safe formula, in any case.

In this particular case / foot, I would line the bottom paper up with the medial footprint at heel and joint and let the toe print on the medial side peek out form under. No harm, no foul.

At the same time the large toe can overhang the insole at the side somewhat...not egregiously so...and especially as the heel height rises.

If I might make one other observation: I never try to square the bottom paper with the outline--not lengthwise not width-wise. Outline generally gives us information about flesh above the plantar surface of the foot...and correspondingly the insole...and can be misleading with regard to LOF. once I find the LOF i bracket the footprint and align the bottom paper between "0" and "12". The outline will usually be well outside the proper positioning of the bottom paper, lengthwise.

Hope that helps...it's early and I haven't had my coffee. And besides that I'm old. :oldnwise:
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Re: Fitting the Foot

#477 Post by nickb1 »

Many thanks @dw,
What you say makes perfect sense to me, re. the sectioniser and women's feet. If I read you correctly your preferred approach in this case would be the second one I've indicated (bottom pic), though not flaring out the insole at all on the medial side. Since I know from first hand the pain of not having an adjustment in the lateral side for this, and it took me more than 2 months to "break in" the shoes, I'll build up there maybe 3/16" then see how it feels at the fitting.
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Re: Fitting the Foot

#478 Post by nickb1 »

dw wrote: Sat Dec 19, 2020 7:40 am If I might make one other observation: I never try to square the bottom paper with the outline--not lengthwise not width-wise. Outline generally gives us information about flesh above the plantar surface of the foot...and correspondingly the insole...and can be misleading with regard to LOF. once I find the LOF i bracket the footprint and align the bottom paper between "0" and "12". The outline will usually be well outside the proper positioning of the bottom paper, lengthwise.
I'm not sure what you mean by "bracket the footprint" though. What I tried to do here was work out where the lower edge of the bottom paper (representing the feather edge) should sit in relation to the lowest point of the outline. The lowest point of the outline shows not where the heel touches the ground but the backwards extent of the heel structure, including the bone above ground level. I did this by inspection of the last, holding it at the intended heel height.
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Re: Fitting the Foot

#479 Post by PhilipB1 »

Not sure if this goes here or under lasts.

I need to add build-up to the outside of a last to give the 4th toe little toe more space. The 4th toe needs about 3/16" more on the side of the last to avoid being distorted when at rest. The little toe needs a similar amount. The last is fine by the time it gets back to the ball joint and the instep is also ok.

I could just add the extra to the side of the last and then all the measurements will be ok, but that seems to change the shape of the last quite a lot and will push the insole out pretty much in line with the foot outline in the toe area. But if I don't add the extra to the edge then I'm worried that the toe stiffener will prevent the shoe from flexing enough to give the 4th toe the space it needs. I imagine this is a pretty standard problem so I'm hoping someone can advise what I should do.
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Re: Fitting the Foot

#480 Post by dw »

My take...when you add a build-up to the side of the last you change the width of the projected insole. Ideally, the insole should be no wider than the weight-on plantar surface of the foot. You can find / discover the plantar surface of the foot by using a pedograph to obtain a 'footprint'. This is not the 'outline.' If the footprint is slightly wider than the insole but the girths are correct, you can probably get by. If the footprint is too wide it will cause the metatarsal heads to 'bunch up' and can cause or aggravate the nerves in the foot. I have a Morton's Neuroma from long ago (my days of jumping out of airplane at 1500 feet) and that's how I discovered that--from personal experience.

If the footprint is narrower than the insole, there will always be a gap between where the foot is 'grounded and where the insole ends. If the girths are correct, this may not be an entire catastrophe but it not only does no one any good, that corner will collect lint and, of course the insole will be distorted somewhat at the inseam. In such cases it is always better to respect the footprint and add any necessary build-ups to the dorsal surface (on top) of the last.

IMO...YMMV
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Re: Fitting the Foot

#481 Post by PhilipB1 »

Thanks, DW. I think I understand what you saying. The insole should, as a minimum be the size of the footprint and if the last is adjusted correctly, the leather will flow out (over the welt) and round the foot. However it seems the toe stiffener stops this happening in the 4th toe area (perhaps I'm making the stiffener too stiff?).

Yesterday I was watching the Bill Bird videos on Youtube on measuring the foot and making a last from those measurements. There are 12 videos in total on this subject; here is a link to the first:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQr82L-1X7s. Bill was trained and worked as a last maker at Lobb. He subsequently moved into making lasts for orthopaedic shoes and eventually set up his own business making orthopaedic shoes. In one of the videos he shows how to get from foot measurements to last outline (insole outline), where to bring the last inside of the outline around the toes and where you can't bring it in if you don't want to compromise the 4th and 5th toes. I'll have a go at building up the last in this way.

BTW, it's amazing watching Bill Bird in action, crafting the last. You can see he has as clear vision of how he wants the last to come out. And he knows exactly where to cut and shape the last and how much to take off. So much skill and experience. It's hard to imagine building up these last making skills without working in the trade and having the continue supply of work.
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Re: Fitting the Foot

#482 Post by dw »

Related to some of the discussions we've had here in the past couple of months and esp.ith regard to the long heel, I thought I would post a couple of photos that speak directly to the long heel and its relationship to a correct fit.

In one of these photos (I hope I get them in order), I have just slipped the shoe on (need a shoe horn to put all my shoes on) and as you can see there is near-as-nevermind0 no slack or looseness along the topline. I cannot shove a pencil behind the heel, or along the medial or lateral side of the shoe. The shoe fits snugly all along and around the topline even though the shoe is not laced and in fact has been slightly sprung open by the shoe horn and my foot.

In the next photo i have laced the shoe up...comfortably. the facings are roughly half an inch apart--a distance I think idea for a derby shoe.

Most of my personal shoes are oxfords but they all fit like this around the topline.

FWIW....

20210322_094038_(1024_x_768).jpg
20210322_094046_(1024_x_768) (2).jpg
20191119_133630_(1024_x_768).jpg
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Re: Fitting the Foot

#483 Post by nickb1 »

PhilipB1 wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 2:26 pm I could just add the extra to the side of the last and then all the measurements will be ok, but that seems to change the shape of the last quite a lot and will push the insole out pretty much in line with the foot outline in the toe area. But if I don't add the extra to the edge then I'm worried that the toe stiffener will prevent the shoe from flexing enough to give the 4th toe the space it needs. I imagine this is a pretty standard problem so I'm hoping someone can advise what I should do.

Phil, if you read up a bit you'll see that I had the same problem, judging by the weight bearing outline and the last bottom pattern. I put 1/3 of the build up on the medial side and 2/3 on the lateral side as per @@dw's formula. The girths are only slightly different left versus right foot, which I think indicates the toes are lying somewhat flat on the lateral side. My toes do that on one foot, maybe a family characteristic. So I had to get most of the build up off the upper areas accordingly. Will try a fitting soon, for my sister.
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Re: Fitting the Foot

#484 Post by PhilipB1 »

Nick, yes, I need a little on the inside, most outside. I can see how much and where. I'll be making up a fitter shoe to test it.
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Re: Fitting the Foot

#485 Post by dgleeson »

Hi,
First question from a novice shoemaker, I've not actually started making yet but I have been studying/reading while I await the arrival of my last (expecting it in the next week).
I'm trying to understand how we determine whether a last allows enough space for the toes. I'm aware there's rules of thumb with regards to space allowance at the end of the last beyond the longest toe, and this varies depending on the pointedness of the last. But how much (if at all) should the toe spread overlap the edges of the last?

I've attached a diagram from Tim Skyrme's bespoke shoemaking book. Look at how much toe there is spreading beyond the edges of the end of the lasts. Is this considered "okay"? Surely a shoe built on this last would squash the toes?
Screenshot_20210413-214328_Notebloc.jpg
In the Bill Bird videos linked above there's almost no spreading of the toes over the edge of the last, although he does mention the big toe can handle a little squashing.

I'm trying to understand whether the toes can overlap the edges at all, and if they can how do we determine by how much?
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Re: Fitting the Foot

#486 Post by PhilipB1 »

My experience is that your toes will very likely get crushed if they go outside the last profile. Your toes will also move forward in the shoe as you walk vigorously and on different inclines, so you need to have enough space ahead of the toes within the last profile for this movement.

My post above (with the reference to Bill Bird's video) resulted from crushed nails in the 4th toes. The shoes were formal round nose, so effectively a V shape at the font of the last. The last had enough space for standing and for very light movement, but having a large arch with lots of flexibility and extension meant the V shape didn't have enough space to allow the outer toes to extend forward.

You can choose lasts shaped to accommodate the toe area fully or if you want a more pointy formal shoe then probably the most elegant solution is to make the last extend forward more than normal which will give you more room for the toe spread (as done by Nicholas Templeman).
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Re: Fitting the Foot

#487 Post by nickb1 »

PhilipB1 wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 5:08 am The insole should, as a minimum be the size of the footprint and if the last is adjusted correctly, the leather will flow out (over the welt) and round the foot. However it seems the toe stiffener stops this happening in the 4th toe area (perhaps I'm making the stiffener too stiff?).
Just a thought - are you making the toe puff extend too far back? Unless you are making a workboot, I think you only need them really strong at the front 2/3 of an inch or so and that only requires 2-3mm of stiffener there. So back of here can be skived fairly thin. There are rules of thumb for the length of the stiffener, I forget the exact figure, based on a median shoe size, but for a small shoe size (like mine) it can result in a stiffener with a hard area that's hitting the toes when you flex the foot. So I make them a bit smaller than this.
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Re: Fitting the Foot

#488 Post by dw »

In my experience, the large toe can move over a bit and, in fact will do so of its own accord as the heel is raised. The fifth can definitely move inward and the fourth can, as well, although less so.

The main thing is that the ends of the toes never butt up against the interior of the shoe. That's why a toe end clearance is needed--three full sizes on a medium round toe. A little less for wide round, a little more for narrow round--all adjusted according to need and extenuating circumstance.

In the drawing above, the first is probably all right. Some of that depends on how the last is positioned over the outline. And without a 'real' footprint and a top down view it is unclear.

The fifth can move but the pencil mark indicating plantar surface (kind of quasi-footprint) indicates to me that the last is not wide enough by a significant margin...again, depending on how accurate those marks are and how the last is positioned on the outline. With a wider last ther would still be a discrepancy between the position of the toes and the shape of the last but seriously doubt that there would be any problems.

it's all speculative and I hesitated to address this issue because it's nothing but an illustration and not a reliably accurate one at that. But the problem and the way to think about it can be at least outlined.

And maybe it helps...FWIW
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Re: Fitting the Foot

#489 Post by dgleeson »

Thanks Philip & DW. Point taken re: it being an illustration, perhaps I could be so bold as to use an example from my own foot?
20210415_120748.jpg
The blue areas are places where I have clear space at the end of the foot. Are the three full sizes of clearance measured from the outline of the toe, or the point the toe is in contact with the insole? In either case this example photo doesn't have enough clearance, I have about 15mm clearance from the end of the longest toe.

What puzzles me most are the areas in red, would you also expect 3 full sizes of clearance here too? The toes here overhang the end of the insole, whereas when wearing the shoe they're pushed inwards.

The areas in the orange overhang the sides of the insole, my understanding from the replies above is that this is sometimes okay?
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Re: Fitting the Foot

#490 Post by dw »

First, a "full size" is roughly one-third of an inch (more or less depending on the overall length of the foot). So 15 mm would be about right for a mid-range (7, 8, 9, 19) foot. And that is added to a fairly precise LOF (length of foot) that is best found by using a size stick and measuring from the back of the heel to the end of the longest toe. Outlines ain't in it, really.

The three full sizes are added to LOF to 'reveal' a possible SLL (standard last length. It's really a 'rule of thumb' and, in fact, "rule of thumb" is an old old measuring 'device' which may have originated with shoemakers. In any case, the implication is that the shoemaker should be ready to change it if the circumstances and foot require it.

The photo above doesn't really tell us anything definitive. The bottom paper (if that's what I'm seeing, seems to suggest that the last is sufficiently long for a medium round toe. But without being able to compare the bottom paper to the outline of the foot and perhaps more importantly, a 'footprint.' We cannot know much. that could be a size 9 foot sitting on top of a size 6 bottom paper. Who knows?

The best way to achieve a fit is to start with as much empirical data as is possible.

Both "empirical" and "as much as possible" are key concepts here.
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Re: Fitting the Foot

#491 Post by dgleeson »

In the photo above I've lined up my foot with the removable insole from a pair of cemented trial shoes, unfortunately I don't have a bottom paper or the last.

I guess I'll need to wait for the arrival of my own last & acquire a measuring stick to continue to conversation with some better data.

A couple of final questions if I may, if a full size is approx ⅓ of an inch, then 3 full sizes would be 1 inch or approx 25mm beyond LOF, which is substantially more than the 15mm I'm roughly getting here. Am I understanding correctly?

Finally, do you know is bottom paper the same term used in the UK? I.e. if I asked Springline for a bottom paper for my last they'd understand what I'm asking for? I understand I can make one myself if needs be.
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Re: Fitting the Foot

#492 Post by dw »

dgleeson wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 6:33 am A couple of final questions if I may, if a full size is approx ⅓ of an inch, then 3 full sizes would be 1 inch or approx 25mm beyond LOF, which is substantially more than the 15mm I'm roughly getting here. Am I understanding correctly?

Finally, do you know is bottom paper the same term used in the UK? I.e. if I asked Springline for a bottom paper for my last they'd understand what I'm asking for? I understand I can make one myself if needs be.
No, you're right (early morning here), 15mm isn't enough. I am in a third world country (the US) where we use inches rather than centimeters. :crackup:

And yes, originally sizes were in barleycorns which run about one-third of an inch. I use Sabbage's Sectionizer (link here) so...if my brain is awake enough yet... is 1/33 of LOF.

I don't know if Springline uses the same convention as lastmakers here but I wouldn't see why not. I didn't invent the term.

And, yes, you can make your own...which will be for the specific last you receive --no guarantee it is the right last for your foot.

Here is a photo of the way I do it (click on the image to increase size):
DSCF1800_2_(1280_x_1024).JPG
There would have been a build-up on the lateral joint area to match the footprint and that could be extended to make more room for the fifth (or not, as aesthetics dictates); and perhaps the toe of the last would have been shortened--in this case the critical datum would be the heel to ball measurement. As you can see the customer had very short toes so the LOF became almost beside the point.
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Re: Fitting the Foot

#493 Post by PhilipB1 »

Just to add, having taken your measurements as DW recommends (and made any necessary adjustments to your lasts), you can check the fit of shoes as you make them and this will tell you how well they are fitting and what other adjustments might be necessary before you finally make them up - it's very likely that will need to make adjustments to the lasts before completion of the shoes.

There are a few of us amateur shoe makers (very much novices by DW's standard) this side of the pond who try and help each other out. How about introducing yourself on the Registry and telling us a little about yourself and your forthcoming shoemaking?
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Re: Fitting the Foot

#494 Post by bcFour »

yes, springline uses the term 'bottom paper' and will supply it with a last. They'd probably also mail you a selection of bottom papers also if you asked them to. My experience with them is has always been positive and helpful. Which is in line with basically all in the shoemaking arena.

I have also sent them an outline with measurements and a picture of a shoe (toe shape) that I wanted to end up with and they suggested a stock last and size. I made some girth adjustments to it and slight outline adjustments, but it was spot on for a base last and was exact toe shape I wanted. (odds are, it was the same last used to make the example shoe that I provided. It was a UK-factory made shoe)
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Re: Fitting the Foot

#495 Post by bcFour »

Looking for some direction or places to start with regards to fixing top line bowing/gapping.

The last has been adjusted to the foot, the uppers lasted with ease and tight topline on the last. Granted these are fitting shoes with no shank. It happens with and without standing on a heel block.

TIA for any help!
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Re: Fitting the Foot

#496 Post by nickb1 »

@bcFour
Hi Bob,
Bill Bird addresses this in one of his videos about bespoke orthopaedic lastmaking (look them up on Youtube, they are a great resource). Bill says the thing to do is generally not to remove material from the top of the lasts as it's usually caused by there being insufficient volume in the shoe lower down; the foot is pushing out there against the upper causing the gap you see above. In which case material needs to be added to the lasts lower down. Just a possibility, I suppose there might be other factors that can generate such a gap?
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Re: Fitting the Foot

#497 Post by das »

Nick's on point with his comment, but I'll add: that gap can also be caused by insufficient lines of transverse lasting tension in the upper, which creates the desired "clip" (pinching-in) along the topline of the quarters under the ankle bones. Not sure how you last your uppers, but "hoisting" them might help alleviate that, as well as taking a tighter pull on lasting pull #2 and #3, which set up lines of tension from the side of the toe angling straight back and up to CP (counter point) on the back seam. Before adjusting the last with fittings, I'd first try "hoisting" (quarters' bottom edge up above the last's featherline during the first few pulls, then knock the last up into the quarters from below with a hammer to get the topline down to where it's supposed to be), then recommence lasting as usual. You'll be amazed how much added "clip" tension this adds to the topline.
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Re: Fitting the Foot

#498 Post by dw »

I've never had this happen to me or my customers so I can't really speak to the causes...never given it much thought. But 'hoisting' really does seem to solve a lot of topline problems.

And, hoisting, along with blocking vamps wherever you can, will also near-as-nevermind eliminate the (nearly immovable) surplus that sometimes shows up, for no apparent reason, on top of the last at the joints and waist. I've seen that too many times on really high end shoes. I've seen shoemakers try to address this 'bunching' with a hot iron but, IMO and TBH, the iron only camouflages the real problem (and the excess), it doesn't get rid of it. I suspect that 'springing' a pattern is meant to head off this issue but all too often, it seems rather hit or miss, esp. without also hoisting.
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Re: Fitting the Foot

#499 Post by admin »

@bcFour

Accidentally deleted your last post...sorry about that. Care to try again? along with a link to the relevant video?
bcFour
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Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2018 12:28 pm
Full Name: Bob Bautista
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Re: Fitting the Foot

#500 Post by bcFour »

Here is the link. He briefly touches on the point mentioned above

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