sewing machines

[dw]

T.J.,

Hey! Glad to see you posting again! I will be interested in your take on the Artisan. I've always had used equipment so I never even considered the Artisan. But I, too, am giving up on my old Singer 136 and moving to a Pfaff 471--I think it's a year or two older model than the 491.

If you don't mind me asking, what's the rough price on the Artisan and is it just for the head or does that include the table and motor?

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[joe_hall]

DW,

Here is some more data on the Artisan 4618:

Artisan was asking $2,170.00 for the machine plus table, servo motor, light, thread stand, and bobbin winder.

The other features I did not list in my earlier post are:
Stitch length from 5 - 30 per inch
"[M]odel 4618 uses a rotating hook with a standard size "G" bobbin. All the fittings such as needles, bobbins, bobbin cases, rotating hooks, needle plates, and feed wheels are industry standard and interchangeable with readily available replacement spare parts.
Recommended thread sizes range from z-15 up to z-138. We also recommend the usage of quality Schmetz brand needles size 135 x 8 with a cutting point from #10 to #18 for leather stitching."

It was a very nice machine. The gear driven rollers (I was told gears and not belts) and the servo motor made the sewing very precise, even for a sewing klutz like me.

Joe

[danfreeman]

Has anyone else looked into the Durkoff-Adler postbed shoe upper machines? I am almost ready to buy their 4180-i-511. Same feed as the Pfaff (gear-driven upper roller, lower roller feed, AND needle feed) on a Czech-made machine (no longer from Kaiserslautern). Less than $2500 for the head. The only competition I could find was the Pfaff 491, and the Juki 1245--both of which I was informed are no longer made. And both of which were much more expensive. Lisa, glad to hear your Artesan machine works great, I've heard mixed reviews, but it stands to reason they would improve.

Dan

[douga]

Hello, I'm new and not yet a shoemaker, but I've always dreamed of entering the business some day. Anyway, I've recently aquired a Singer 51 w28 with no manual. Does anyone have some tips and info about this machine? I think I have the thread pattern figured out. Does it use 128 needles? I want to know the largest needles and thread I can push through it.

Thanks, Doug

[marcell]

Did you try this?

http://sitnsewacademy.com/accessories/manuals.html
http://www.ismacs.net/Singer/manuals/index.html

[dw]

Doug,

There are operator's manuals for 51 class machines here...no charge...:

http://www.bootmaker.com/dwswb.htm

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[douga]

Thanks for the links. I've looked at these and have not found exactly my model machine, but it gives me some ideas to start with. I'd really like to find an original operator's manual, though.

[relferink]

Doug,

First of all a warm welcome to the Crispin Colloquy.
I have a 51W28 in storage and had to go look at the needle before I could answer. It is a 128 needle that's in there now. I never used this machine, bought it thinking I could fix it up and make it usable again but have not gotten to it yet. My best guess would be that the 128 needle is just fine.

I have not found an exact manual for the W28 variation but any 51 class manual will give you a solid idea about the basics and with a little imagination you should be able to fill in the blanks.

Good luck

Rob

[hidesmith]

Well, after 30 years of hand-sewing, I now own two sewing machines, both of them Singers - a flat-bed 31-20 and a post machine that says 168 G 101.

I've owned the 31-20 for about 12 years and could never get it to work correctly. I FINALLY had it repaired - apparently, the last person to time it never wanted to do it again. This one last time, and it's never going out of time again - he drilled and pinned it. The cost to repair it grew from just under $100 to five times that amount. It sews DARNED WELL now.

The post machine was one I'd heard about while the 31-20 was being repaired. It was owned by the mechanic and has been gone through from top to bottom. It also sews like a dream.

The problem is, after all those years of hand sewing, I've never USED a sewing machine before. The technique is completely foreign to me. I can't sew a straight line to save my soul (sorry) sole. I sewed a counter in yesterday after cementing it in place. I took care to take it slow and pay close attention, but the end result is as crooked as a small town politician (yes, I have a specific politician in mind). While I understand it will require practice, are there any short-cuts? Do I need to jury-rig some guides on the bed or something? Or is it just a matter of wasting a lot MORE leather while I get good at it?

Anyways, thanks.

B

[headelf]

Bruce, learning to stitch consistently is largely IMO a matter of practice and using any aid or jig that helps. A number of machines have flip down or away stitch guides ie. Tippmann's or in a pinch a well placed strip of masking tape works as a guide for edgestitching. After you use your machines awhile you will intuitively KNOW how far away things are from the needle by eye.
When we were kids in homemaking/sewing classes we learned to stitch straight on notebook paper with and without lines with an unthreaded machine.
Anyway the photo below shows the green masking tape applied to a flat bed. When you peel it away, any residue of adhesive comes off easy with rubbing alcohol.

Also, nobody knows how fast you stitched any seam, so slowing WAAAAY down helps alot. DW's technique of using the right hand as a brake on the wheel helps with accuracy too.
Georgene

6350.jpg

[headelf]

Sorry, new photo program that said it was reducing to a 2 x 4 inch picture. Apologies for too many pixels and too bigga picture!
Georgene

[hidesmith]

Georgene,
Thanks for the response. When I had the post machine set up, I had one of those new-fangled motors put on it. You know the one, you can slow the whole MOTOR down. I have it set as slow as it will go. Using the right hand on the wheel is, so far, unnecessary. The thing really creeps! Dan Freeman showed me one of his machines that has a speed reducing jack-shaft on it. I may have to get one of those for my 31-20.

It's frustrating - for all these years, being able to put out a quality product every time without wasting time or leather, and now that I'm changing my methods, I have to start again. Talk about deflating my ego! I can't afford it - any ego visable in me is a lie anyway.

Well, not entirely - I am quite proud of the level of humility I've achieved.
thanks again,

B

[relferink]

Bruce,

It's not easy teaching your sewing machine to sew in a straight line. It takes a lot of patients. The best advice is not to fight the machine, let it run and do not try to over-steer the material.
Once you are confident enough to let the machine do it's thing and just give it "guidance" your sewing will improve drastically, until than practice. Georgene hit it right on, no one will see how fast or slow you were, they will see if it's crooked.
Practicing on paper works great. Take out your bobbin as well and make sure you clean it thoroughly, preferable with compressed air when your done.

I suddenly remember a late night conversation at the HCC annual meeting. Did I promise anyone some sewing practice papers? If so please remind me as my memory fails me.

Bruce, if you want to come down to my shop some time I'll show you how I trained my machines

Rob

[dw]

When Randee was first learning to stitch, she went down to the local fabric shop and bought some faux leather...it being cheap...and practiced, practiced, practiced.

Of course the way they've hunted down the South American lesser faux...almost to the point of extinction...guarantees it won't be so cheap anymore. The arctic nauga is a pretty good substitute, however.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[artzend]

Bruce,

Firstly, put a tennis ball under the pedal to act as a buffer. This makes it much easier to control the amount of pressure you are applying.

Second,learn to use the needle as your guide. Forget about where the wheel is, the needle is what you watch.

Thirdly, use just your accelerator (right)foot so you can have the same control you would have driving your car. This is easier than using two feet on the plate.

Draw lines on scrap leather with a silver pen and leave the thread out and just keep stitching to lines, curved and straight until you feel comfortable with it. The more practice you can do, the better, just sit there and don't stop until you are comfortable with it and then put in thread and do it all again.

Draw a line about 2mm/1/8" from the edge when you are stitching uppers and use that line for the needle to follow. You can rub the line out later but for a start it can make it easier.

Tim

[big_larry]

Bruce!!

I am in the same process of learning to sew properly. I hate to be the "new guy know it all" but I would like to suggest a couple of things that are working for me.

I put a 3 to 1 speed reduction on my Singer236. It has a clutch motor and is basically the same machine as yours. I have had to develope the right hand clutch on the wheel to keep the machine from stitching beyond what my reaction time is. I think this is the natural solution everyone ends up doing with this type set-up. I stitch very slowly, sometines only two or three stitches at a time.

I try to keep the edge of previous stitch row on the right side of the roller and track on the 1/64 th little leather strip between the last stitch row and the roller. This has really helped me with the fancy stitching on the boot tops.

Another suggestion is to set up lots of light. My eyes go funny after a couple of hours sewing and I can't see the tiny leather strip I described between the edge (or last line of stitches) and the roller.

I use the slow down motor on my 95 singer. It is also very simular to the one you are using. I use #46 thread on this machine and a # 12 needle. I have also been using smaller stitch lengths. There is no benefit trying to use the right hand on the wheel as it stops as soon as you let off the pedal. I use it on the slowest range and still make only a few stitches at a time.

Now, only by way of suggestion, I needed to use the left foot to push the sewing pedal. I highly recommend using a right foot pedal or a right knee pedal to lift the foot. This frees up the right hand for wheel braking or holding the work piece. I learned that it is a whole lot easier to get these habbits ( or is it habit) as you start rather than to have to relearn old bad ones.

I did ok on one and two row fancy stitching. This is really good practice. I ended up with a pair of boots for myself after screwing up my color pattern just a little bit. Keep track of the colors and when you sew black leather, sew at least two rows of blue and red thread. Blue does not show up as a single rows and red doesn't look right as a single row in mixed color schemes.

While I am on my soap box, start on the rear top pannels because the improvement by the time you get to the fronts can be awsome.

I found that I had to become a sewing machine repairman. It is just too expensive to hire a repairman every time your machine goes "puke." Timing is simple after you have done it 30 or 40 times. After I learned that my 236 wasn't a saddle stitcher it has not came out of time. Getting every little thing right is also something you will get used to. I purchased new tension parts for each machine and the thread tension can still be a mystery at times.

This is just my opinion and the master level bootmakers may be able to give you better counsel so I will use the only three latin words I know. To be taken with "MAGNUS GRAINUS SALTUS."

Bruce, I wish you well, Larry Peterson

[das]

Bruce,

I feel your pain man, as I only went "mechanized" in the mid-late 90s--before that, all hand-sewn everywhere, except I did have a "hot rodded" Singer patcher that I thought was pretty space-age in comparison.

Georgene's masking tape trick is neat, and I wish I knew that then. What I did, and still do on some things, is use a little magnetic stitch guide block you can buy at any fabric/sewing store. It's steel, and maybe an inch square, 1/2" high, and the built-in magnet holds it where you want it on the needle plate. It forms a wall to guide the work through at whatever distance from the needle you like...very handy gizmo.

[dw]

I may do things a little different from some others...and I teach it this way, finding that it helps beginners...

First, do use a different foot for the knee lever and the drive peddle. Especially when you are starting--sometimes the brain cross-fires and steps on the throttle when what you really wanted to do was lift the presserfoot. When you become more comfortable it won't make any difference and such cross-fires won't happen but it won't hurt to use two different feet either. It's like driving a stick shift car.

Also I watch the presserfoot wheel (if you have a roller foot) almost simultaneously while watching the needle. That should not be a problem as they are (or should be) no more than a millimeter apart. But if you only watch the needle there will be times when the needle is exactly the right distance from the edge but the roller is aimed off the edge and the very next stitch will then be too close to the edge...and vice-versa, of course.

As has been said, learn to let the machine feed evenly and constantly. Stopping and starting is a recipe for "jaggies," to borrow a graphics arts term. It doesn't matter how fast or slow you go but learn fine control of the foot that is controlling the pedal...no matter what kind of motor clutch setup you have, body control is the critical and final element.

And as was said so well...no one ever sees how fast or slow you went but they dern sure will see how sure you went.

Finally, do not choke the material. I generally hold the material with the thumb and forefinger of the left hand. I do not allow it to rest heavily on the table--I do not press the material to the table top to steer it, in other words. I lift it up ever so slightly from the table top and guide it gently and smoothly. If you find you have stitched a wobble in your line of stitching, try to come back into position gracefully and smoothly. The eye will not be so apt to notice a slightly wide sweep of the thread but it will notice any rough and abrupt change of direction.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[chuck_deats]

D.A.

Thanks, The magnet idea works. Used a magnet from an old speaker.

Chuck

[hidesmith]

All,

Thanks for all the tips, there are many that I will try. DW, please excuse me for impersonating Ralph Cramden when I say
"Norton, you are a MENTAL CASE!" (in regard to your 'faux' and 'nauga' references)
Darn it, the only apparent shortcut I can take to proficiency is practice. Why it never occurred to me to sew scraps with no needle is beyond me (I guess that is redundant, isn't it?)
I guess the old adage is true - "Practice makes tedium."
Thanks again for all your help,

Bruce

[dw]

Bruce,

Thanks...I think?

One other thing I would say...just to offer a different perspective...stitching with no thread is my idea of no help. First, it ruins the scraps just a surely as if you had thread in the machine. Second, it doesn't give you that perspective of stitching up against another line of stitching or laying in a line of stitching next to an edge.

A line of stitching creates a visual "line" (for lack of a better term) that the eye can follow--the eye can see where it came from and where it needs to go. A series of faint punctures in the leather cannot, in my opinion, do that.

Try sewing black thread on black leather or nauga-hyde (that will drive you nuts) then try sewing several lines of black thread on white leather (that will make you mad).Stitching with no thread can teach you machine and speed control but aside from the waste of thread, stitching with thread can teach you the very same thing.

Sometimes you just got to jump in.

(sorry if I contradicted somebody...with so many different points of view, it was bound to happen)

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

(Message edited by dw on January 12, 2008)

[large_shoemaker_at_large]

Hi Bruce
re your sewing. Couple more things to suggest. I have used all kinds of flat beds cylinder heads and post beds and pathchers.. I pesently have had a Pfaff post bed with a old speed reducer and clutch. The exact model plate was replaced my a reseller. I have used this machine for 25 plus years, with some maintenace it has worked well for years.
Prior to sewing your seams must be prepared as flat as possible. 1st flatten them on a last or blocking so you don't fight bumps. 2 . depending on which kind of seam you are trying to sew laped, fold back etc the peices should be secured so they go through the machine with out forming pressure humps from to much foot pressure, or to little pressurse and the stiching can get real bad real fast. All machines have a "drift" like a bandsaw.
so you may have to adjust your inital angle of attach especially when a seam has a bevel or multiple peices, Which also means you need to oversteer an outside curve and understeer an inside curve. only practise will tell. I use my right hand as a brake and the right foot for speed and foot pedal lifter. with practise this becomes quit like driving a "standard trany". try to sew at a consistant rate it does make a better job and using the right hand and a light touch you can make even # stay stitches like were the quarters are secured to the vamp. and small stitches count as you sew. it may sound nuts but 5 stitches in each direction have a greater chance of being parallel .
sewing is like driving. and as said good lighting best from over your shoulder so it throws a shadow away from you and the foot.
Sewing black on black with black threads is hard on the old eyes
do it early in the day. if you doing real fine stitching as a old plastic surgeon said Not to much coffee this morning!

Good luck
Brendan

[mack]

Hi Bruce,
I'm new to the forum but I know the feeling of terror with these new fangled sewing machines. I didn't even know how to thread my machines when I got them (singer 110 and 136 ). I have spent many hours practicing on scraps and stitching any shape I can. I feel more confident now and I only tackle shoes at the moment but I think good needles (Schmetz) good thread,I use a polyester one and the best leather you can afford make the job easier. Keep at it
Mack.

[john_ralston]

Is $500 a fair price for a Sutton McKay 296A?

Seems like it would be - seller says it works but needs a little needle adjustment. Looks well taken care of from the pics.

[joe_hall]

All,

I would like to offer the Forum some information I picked up by chance. I personally can not use it, but some of you might.

One early weekend afternoon several weeks ago I was flipping through the channels when I noticed someone sewing an extremely intricate pattern. I stopped to watch. The picture zoomed in on a needle following an intricate scalloped pattern. What was interesting was the material was stationary and the machine head was moving with seeming effortless ease in any direction over the plane of the sewed material. The operator was controlling the needle/head with a short bar extending probably 3" on each side of the needle. This bar seemed to be less than 1/2" above and parallel the plane of the material and each end of the bar had a small ball (golf ball sized) for the operator to grasp.

It turned out I was watching a specialized quilting machine. The parallels between the steps a bootmaker uses to lay out a pattern and those the quilter was using were uncanny. She drew out her pattern on a piece of paper. She used her machine to sew along her lines on the paper to create a template. She placed her pattern on the fabric and used chalk to transfer the pattern. She then sewed the pattern onto the fabric.

I was fascinated with the seeming ease with which the operator followed the chalked lines on her fabric. The fabric did not move and she had her hands right down at the needle controlling its direction. The needle/head seemed to move with fluid ease in any direction the operator wanted. To me, who has significant problems competently sewing boot tops, the machine was a revelation.

All I could tell from the short bit of program I saw was the work "Millenium" on the side of the sewing head. I did some searching on the Internet and found this site for the machine:
http://www.apqs.com/comparegrid.htm

Here is the bad news. The machines are $10,000 - $17,000. As a hobbiest bootmaker, this is way out of my personal range, but some of you pro's might be interested.

For my own information, I did email the company to see if their machines would sew leather and I got this reply:
"I do believe our machines will sew through leather...thread size
and needle
size would be important elements to consider. Our machines are of
industrial
quality and can sew through a variety of materials. If you would
like to
send us a sample of what you would be sewing through, we'd be glad
to give
it a try and send the sample back to you."

My respondent also said she has used machines available from time to time. I have the email address of the lady who replied to me. I will be happy to give it to anyone interested, but I do not think it proper to publish the address on the Forum.

I hope some of you might find this information useful.

Joe Hall