sewing machines

[halfpint23]

Veering a tad off the topic of fine cutting with a sewing machine - I have a great old workhorse of a 31-20, and would LOVE to outfit her with a roller fot and matching feed dogs. I bought a setup from an ebay seller - supposedly the correct fit for my 31-20, but it does NOT fit at all - in any of three axis'. (sp?)

Since this set was obviously of chicom origins, I need to know if there's still such a thing as a good roller foot setup for these old Singers, and who might have them? I'm sincerely tired of buying parts that turn out to be chicom knockoffs, made by somebody with a wobbly mill working from a polaroid print instead of measured specs!

TIA,
Kate
Kate's Custom Gunleather
Homesick Angels Farm
www.IrishHuntersandJumpers.com

[spider]

Ma'am:
Try Cielo Supply Co. in Anthony NM. cielo18@juno.com or (505) 874-8377.

[halfpint23]

Good Grief........I lived right near there when I was a kid.

I'll give them a holler, and thanks very much!

Kate
Kate's Custom Gunleather
Homesick Angels Farm
www.IrishHuntersandJumpers.com

[dw]

Spider,

Yes, you answered your own question.

And if you can set the stitch length that accurately, it ought to work...on the 31 class machines there is no gauge, per se, and so we just throw the lever all the way towards zero feed and it works fine.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[dw]

Kate,

Arnold Kay at Melanie machine can probably set you up. But just to clarify...the feed dog on a 31 class machine are just that....feed dog (singular), not a roller. And you need a matching needle plate to go with it.


Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[halfpint23]

Yes, I am well aware of those points - I got several feet (upper presser feet) for the 31-20 along with matching "footprint" dogs and their matched needle plates.

Unfortunately the roller foot (upper presser, ratcheted roller) did NOT work on the machine. It was A: too darn tall and B: placed about a third of the roller's width directly in line of the needle travel. PLUS the doggone thing was made as a swing-away foot, and was so sloppy in the way the hinge and it's latch was made - well, I digress, it was a real piece of dried excrement.

Thanks to you kind folks I now have a couple of better sources to ask!

Kate

[dw]

Gang,

Some time ago we had a discussion of needle points. There are a fairly large number of different points that are available for sewing leather. And each of them produces a little different look in the resulting seam. Now this may seem a bit trivial...and with some of the more common points the case can be made. But with others the needle point will not only limit what you can do but can, in some cases, affect the strength of the seam.

I am going to violate my own guidelines and post this fairly large illustration of needle points that originally came from the Schmetz needle company and subsequently was scanned(with permission) from the Dunlap Sales catalogue.

Several important considerations to be aware of: First, not all these points are available in all sizes and systems of needles; second, there are at least two needle points that are commonly available that are not shown here--the round point (R) and the tri tip (SDI)...which is just a round point with a triangular tip--that I find useful in bootmaking; and third, when looking at the illustration, the line of stitching is down the length of the page. This information should allow the viewer to visualize the hole that will result from using a particular point. The direction of threading is indicated by the little arrow which points to the right.

I have some photographs of the stitching that results from some of thse points and I can post them in response to any question about a specific point. I don't have photographs of the results of all points, however.

anyway...here you go (this should be printable)...

5007.jpg

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[jesselee]

DW

Thats some new and great infrmation to me. Any way you can narrow this down to the 1860-90 period for me? I want to keep with authenticity. I am using the 1878 Bradbury from my Master's shop and it takes a Singer patcher needle. I still have some original needles and I get a nice stitch with them. But now you have opened my mind to the possibilities of what needles may have been available then. Using Oak tanned 4/5 (like tooling leather, and flesh out, waxed) and 2 layers of 2 oz. prime cowhide (which needs stretching).
Much thanks old son.
JesseLee

[dw]

Jesse,

If you are using a patcher, you may not be able to get any point except the round point.

Also, to reiterate, much depends on what look you want--some of these needle points produce a real pronounced twisted rope effect; some lay the stitches in end to end with no apparrant offset; some like the round point (which I use and would not want to be without) result in a rather random twisting effect...with one stitch offset to one side of the line of stitching and subsequent stitches offset to the other side.

That said, I have seen shoes made in the early 20th century that had the pronounced offset (I'm not sure what the technical terminology for that effect is) so clearly by 1920 (?) leather point needles (as opposed to round point only) were in use. Beyond that I have no idea.

But that's why understanding the shape and orientation of the hole is so important. Photos of sewing with a particular needle point, both with and without thread, can be very revealing.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[jesselee]

DW

I have retired my Singer 29K-2 until I find out when it was made. Currently running John Taylor's 1878 Bradbury for my basic all around work and the 1872 Bradbury for the tiny invisible stitches.
I love both the twisted rope type stitches which I can get with my big patcher needles, the needle is as big as the shank, and I think the offset stitches add character. And of course they are very authentic to the time period. I may go off the line now and then due to insufficient lighting, but my old machines never miss a stitch.Thanks for the needle information.
JesseLee

[relferink]

Jesse,

Maybe these links will help you in finding the production date on the singer. If I remember well your looking for the period before they started using a letter prefix but there is a singer email and telephone # to inquire.
International Sewing Machine Collectors' Society & Singer

Rob

[dw]

Jesse,

If you call someone like Dunlap (1.800.626.9200) and ask for "tech support" and then either give them a system number (found on the box) or describe the machine you are using, you may find that there are several cross-referenced needle systems that include different leather points. Many needle systems cross reference and if the length and the shank are identical you might be able to use a needle that was originally intended for one kind of machine in another kind of machine. If you are using patcher needles in your Bradbury, chances are that you can get a number of different leather points.

Just a thought....


Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[jesselee]

DW

Good idea. I will deffinately give them a call tomorrow. I do know that the Bradbury needles are a bit shorter, so I have to grind down the patcher needles.
Jesse

[halfpint23]

I have a friend in California, an oldtime saddler maker, who needs instruction on setting up and using the American brand hand cranked lap skiver I just sent to him, I got the thing to do a fairly decent job of skiving for me, but am at a loss as to what to tell him so he can do it - I do not believe he's terribly mechanical.

Does anyone here have access to instructions for setting up and using a lap skiver? He says he also has a Landis skiver that he can't get to work either! I feel so badly that he paid me for a machine he can't use.... he really needs some help here!

TIA,
Kate
Kate's Custom Gunleather
Sultan WA USA

[john_ralston]

I have the instructions at home and I will look. If not, he can call Shoe Systems Plus, which is part of Landis. 800.354.6278

[j1a2g3]

I was wondering what a Landis Straight Needle Machine can do? Can it sew through thick leather, say 1/2 inch of leather? Can it sew something other then a straight line? How much room do you have to manuever the material around the Awl and Needle bar? Any other information would be greatly appreciated, Joel

[tmattimore]

If you have or make the flat harness plate you can easily sew 5/8 or thicker, if you adjust the presser foot up to 3/4. You have only a limited amount of space to the rear. I have sewed all kinds of straps, and linings on saddle skirts, I have also sewn half welts on boots when the 12 is broken but it is a pain.
Tom

[dw]

Joel,

I have an American Straight Needle machine...I don't know how much different from the Landis it is, but I sew sideseams with it very reliably. With a harness plate and a roller bearing as a guide I never jump over the edge of sidewelt. I have stitched as thick as half inch but I think it could be adjusted for higher. It has four inch throat I would guess--not much room for anything but "diamonds and ovals" and you might have to pull the piece and turn it around to finish the job.

If you are looking for something with a deeper throat you're gonna have to go to a harness machine...a Randall or a Campbell or an old Landis. Of course, there are arm machines--needle machines--that are capable of handling heavier threads, and they do very well sewing sheepskin (wool on) and fabric...something the hook and awl machines have trouble with.

But for feeding heavy, thick leathers reliably, a hook and awl machine, like the ASN, is always been my choice.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[romango]

I am beginning the process of resurrecting a Landis 12-K curved needle stitcher that has been is storage for several years. It appears to be in pretty good shape. It has a hot wax chamber that it runs the thread through before feeding it to the stitcher.

Can the machine be used without this hot wax bath? DW, I seem to recall that your model F had no such wax bath. If it can be used without the wax bath, what are the pros and cons?

[dw]

Rick,

Others can chime in here if their experiences are at odds with mine...but in my opinion, if you are going to use synthetic thread there are no "pros" to using hot wax. Synthetic (dacron) thread will not hold the wax very well no matter what kind of wax you use. It helps but not like hand wax , instance.

But there's another aspect of this...if you are determined to use linen thread, consider that it is not only an organic fiber (a lunch counter for bacteria) but it is also absorbent. The wax not only seals the stitch hole and locks the thread, it seals the thread itself to prevent water take-up or wicking. Liquid wax will do two of three of these task nearly as well as hot wax (it won't lock the stitch as well).

And again, synthetic threads are impervious to both bacteria and moisture.

As for the cons...I started out with hot wax. It has its charms, but cleaning the machine every day and waiting an hour or so for the machine to heat up and the wax pot to get completely liquid are not among them. Frankly, I think a machine that runs hot wax, and is not subject to rigourous maintenance, will deteriorate much sooner than one running liquid wax.

Hot wax was much more useful in the days when cements were not as reliable as they are now. The waxed thread would nearly become one with the fibers of the sole and when the outside loop of the stitch was worn away, the seam would often hold for a good deal longer. Some folks will tell you that nowadays AP is really all you need to hold a sole on...it is that good. Accepting the presumed validity (or not) of such adulterations, one would have a hard time making a case for sticking with linen thread and hot wax.

I, long ago, converted the central thermostat on my curved needle to a switch box only.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

(Message edited by dw on August 20, 2007)

[halfpint23]

My Landis #1 harness machine (threaded needle, compound feed) was converted long before it came to me to use the newer threads. Boiler and pump assembly for the hot wax was removed, and the one presser foot that came with it has been ground off - the closed toe shortened to make it an open toe, and the "prickers" on the bottom of the foot that serve to both grip the leather and set the stitch were also ground off. Losing the prickers allows the stitch length to be altered without having to change the foot, and I have not noticed any issues in traction for feeding, even in heavy going. It's a fine old machine, wish I had more use for it.

Since the Landis is mostly roller thread guides, I do not worry much about thread lube issues with it - and the modern dacron thread does run very well in it. Since we are not motorized, there's little chance of getting up enough speed to need to add a top-oiler (for the "liquid wax" ) to keep the upper thread cool.

DW's mention of the excellent seam sealing qualities of the hot wax reminded me of how I actually finish my hand-sewn holsters - also sewn with dacron thread - I rub in my own kitchen table leather treatment, then melt it into the leather fibers with a hair dryer, effectively sealing both seam and surface against the elements and abrasion in use. I do this for horse tack also - sure keeps the dirt and sweat from degrading the stitching in use.

Kate
Kate's Custom Gunleather

[romango]

Thanks for the input. I will gladly do without the wax bath. Looks like a real nightmare to work with.

I'm going to check at Oregon Leather to see if they carry and Dacron thread. Is there a particular size I should start with? Is there any left or right handed twist issue?

It's kind of fun cleaning up the old beast.

5371.jpg

[dw]

Rick,

Run on over to Conger and pick up a couple spools of Bulldog. They'll have it. I don't think it comes in a left and right and if I remember correctly, what I have is a size six and a half.

While you're there pick up a quart of Sellari's liquid wax and a quart of wax thinner.

Oh...maybe before you go, you should check your wax strippers--two of them for the wax pot....one of them right behind that nut with the hole in it (dead center bottom of the photo). They get old and need to be replaced if you want the machine to sew correctly.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[romango]

Now you're confusing me. I thought you were saying I don't need wax with dacron thread.

[dw]

Rick,

Well, no, I didn't say that exactly. I can see how you might have read it that way--I guess I assumed you were thinking of hot wax as an alternative to liquid wax. I mentioned liquid wax several times in my post.

If you use the stitcher without the heater you will want the liquid wax (even with dacron)--it doesn't need to be heated--if only to function as a thread lubricant. But as I mentioned above it will also seal the thread hole to some extent and bind the thread together to a lesser extent.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC