sewing machines

[jon_g]

Pfaff 594,single needle post machine. Does anyone know where I can find an owners manual?

[jesselee]

Thanks for the good advice gents.I never tried the channeling and just tried to go through a thicker welt and thinner type sole leather. I was just running a test.
It does seem to me that you can't really get into a narrow arch with these machines, or you have to remove the last from the boot.
Other than that, this is a great thread for those of us who appreciate the Junker and Ruh. I wonder how I ever got by without one.

Cheers,

JesseLee

[johnl]

Not real sure at this stage what I will do with it, but just finished putting a Landis Model K curved needle stitcher into the garage. Old shoe shop closing about 20 miles out of Memphis getting rid of all the equipment. He still has a 5 in 1, a Landis model L curved needle stitcher, American straight needle stitcher, Adler patcher, Macay stitcher, Line finisher, and some other stuff at a good price. Let me know if anyone is interested, and I will put you in contact
John Lewis

[jesselee]

John,

How old is the McKay? Is it the treadle model?

Cheers,

JesseLee

[johnl]

Jesse, I have to plead stupidity on this. By treadle model, do you mean "foot powered" If so no, it has an electric motor. Older, probably from the 60s. I saw it sew though, it did fine.
John

[andre]

I bought this beauty yesterday on ebay. Certainly not cheap, but what a beauty!

12473.jpg

[rosesj]

What are the benefits of a post machine in comparison to cylinder machine? I see YouTube videos where both are used for shoes, but nothing in which boots are used. What length of post is best for Western boot work?

I am trying to determine what to buy. I understand that many of you are enamoured with your Singer 31-xs, but I think that although I am quite mechanically inclined, I believe I would be better off buying something new/newer which will perform well but hopefully require less maintenance. This is a hobby... and I know it won't last if I am spending more time working on my machines than on my leather.

I would also like something which will allow me to branch out a little, purses, chaps and belts for sure, probably paniers and saddlebags as well. Not going into saddles, at least now, but something which will allow me to do as much of these things well would be my goal. However boots and shoes are my main focus, so if it gives anywhere, it needs to be elsewhere.

If you guys were to buy new/newer (ie less likely for maintenance) flatbed and post machines... what would you buy and why?

Thanks
Shane

[elfn]

As a sewing machine buff . . . Shane, I have to disagree with your "newer is better" philosophy.

I have about 20 sewing machines and sergers. My favorite (quilting, not shoe making) is a Singer 301A built in GA in 1954. It is older than I am and definitely requires much less maintenance.

My newest machine is a ~1977 Viking 6750. The needle board is bad and the cam master needs replacing. I bought the machine new and have already done one major parts replacement. The Viking weighs more than the 301 (~20 lbs compared to 7 lbs).

I've already got more hours on my 301A than I ever put on the Viking but despite being 20 years "newer", the Viking has neither the strength nor the beautiful simplicity of the Singer. "Newer" metals and plastics is the Viking's downfall.

I've got an old Pfaff 120 in storage . . . just need to find a case or cabinet for it. I'll use it instead of the old (1972) NewHome I picked up at Goodwill . . . nice machine but the Pfaff does all the same stuff and is a better machine.

I really do think older is better. The metals were heavier/stronger and the engineering more solid. JMPO based on my experience.

Nori

[sorrell]

Shane,
I have to admit that I'm on the other side of the fence from Nori. I too love sewing machines AND I also enjoy taking them apart and working on them (except on the days I desperately need to use one and it's misbehaving).

However, when you're just starting out, if you don't know how to service your machines you need one you can count on. Things WILL go wrong, and sometimes with an old machine you don't know if it's the machine or operator error.

From your descriptions of what you plan to do I'd suggest a new post machine from Jerry Zonis at Artisan. That's what I have and I'm quite pleased with it. He has a couple of models but I have the plainest, least bells and whistles one, not that I'd be opposed to a nicer one! A post machine is more versatile than a flatbed. It will usually accomodate a wider range of leather thickness and needle sizes and it's better for handling odd-sized work.

The downside is that it's not comfortable for stitching multiple rows of decoration on boot tops. You can do it, it's just not as comfortable. If you're going to start with plainer boots this may not be an issue. Or, I've seen bootmakers built a wooden box that fits over the post and converts the machine to one with a flatbed surface. Then they have the best of both.

Lisa

[elfn]

Oops. Should have admitted that I'm a certified sewing machine tech . . . took a class years ago, just don't do much with it other than keep my (and mother's) machines tuned up.

N

[artvanhecke]

Hi Shane,

The 31-15 is a great machine, but still a flatbed. A post machine can be a flatbed if you build a table to go around the post. A cylinder arm can also have a table built. A cylinder arm or flatbed can never be a post.

Old Iron:
Singer 31-15 or 20 (Flatbed)
Singer 153W101 or 103 (Cylinder Arm)
Singer 136W101 236 also (Post)
Pfaff 491 (Needle feed gear driven wheel post)

New Iron:
Cobra 5550 (Flatbed)
Consew 227 (Cylinder Arm)
Cobra 5110 (Post)
Cobra 8810 (Post exact duplicate of Pfaff 491)

Art

[rosesj]

Thanks for your input.

How important is "reverse" to a boot maker? I know I use it to lock down lines on my regular fabric sewing machine almost every line.

Lisa, do you pick up, move back 3 stitches, and resew in order to lock them down? The Artisan and Cobra machine (Pfaff 491 clone) looks great, but it has no reverse.

And I'm all for useful bells and whistles... If I knew which WERE useful, it might help. :-) What sort of things do you feel would add that musical "note" to your "plainest" machine?

[dw]

I have sewn on both cylinder arm machines and post machines. If given a choice, I would always prefer the post machine.

If you are sewing within a shoe or boot, you get a 360° range of movement with a post and probably less than 90° with a cylinder arm machine.

Singer also made a 51(?) class post machine...long obsolete now...one of which I used for many years. In fact, when I began I built a removable table that mounted around the post and did flat ornamental stitching on the machine, as well. Needles might be hard to come by but I believe they are still available in limited sizes and points.

I see now that Seiko even makes an extra high post--17" as opposed to the standard 7". They're expensive but it does open some possibilities.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[dw]

Shane,

Can't speak for Lisa, but I've never found myself wishing for a reverse. And as much as it sounds like a good idea, "pick up, move back 3 stitches, and resew" just leaves you with a loop of loose thread at the end of your line of stitching.

If you feel compelled to do something like that, what you need to do is start your stitching an amount equal to three stitches inward from where you really want to start. Stitch backward three stitches and then proceed forward as usual.

But if you are using nylon thread (who isn't anymore?) none of that is necessary. You can just pull your stitches to the backside, snip them short and touch with a lit match. Then, quickly press the molten nylon flat.

Or if you want to get fussy you can even use a woodburning pen to cut and melt simultaneously. this makes for a very neat "tie-off."

Truth to tell, none of the machines that have been used to make shoes or boots for as long as I can remember (and longer than that if older machines are any indication) ever had reverse.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[rosesj]

Thanks DW, thats very helpful.

Do you believe that building a table for an Artisan/Cobra Post machine (Pfaff 491 clone) would be good 'enough' (and I cringe as I type that because it goes against who I am at my core)to do a good job of fancy stitching boottops?

I guess my question is while I am sure that a 'job specific' machine will always be better for a given purpose than a 'do it all compromise'... how MUCH better would it be and would I be giving up, or hampering myself, too much by trying to make the compromise?

I know someone said they use different thread for stitching and attaching uppers so they have the machines set up for their specific purpose. Whereas if I had a single machine, it could mean a big bunch of readjusting each time I switched. At least I can see this as a possible issue. And if it required very much 'tinkering' I think I would rather just get another machine. (Time and enjoyment is at a premium for me. Long setups just to return to working is not something I want to deal with.)

Just for grins... what sort of 'possibilities' would that 17" post open up as far as bootmaking goes?

Shane

[sorrell]

Shane,
For bootmaking, I don't consider the ability to back stitch at all important. My post has reverse but I rarely ever use it.

Lisa

[artvanhecke]

Do you really need a reverse? They sure did without it for a lot of years. Going back 3 stitches and resewing will NOT leave a loop of thread, the thread will tighten when the needle goes down the hole, however this was a production technique used for speed a la piecework. It is nicer to just turn the work around and resew back a couple of stitches. If you are using the correct needle size or a size smaller like some of us do, sewing back over will leave a noticeable buildup, so you can take the bottom thread (it is sticking out the top) and pull it to the back in the second stitch (use an old needle from a needle and awl machine for this), then tie off the two threads on the bottom. A daub of glue on the bottom or a touche from a Bovie will seal the deal (I don't trust knots in Nylon or Dacron),


Forget the 17" post, the cost can seldom be justified.

A man needs but one sewing machine, that's why I have 10 if you don't count to home machines (probably 10 of those too). I have 2 12s, one for black thread, one for white. Sometimes, the price is right, I thought I needed one at the time, it seemed like a good idea, or someone was going to scrap it, pick your reason. The more machines, the less time making adjustments or trying to make a machine do what it wasn't designed to do.

As far as compromises, I don't do that very well.

Art

[rosesj]

Thanks,

I don't compromise much better than I let someone else ride my horse. So I'm there with you Art.

I didn't see you reversing on your YouTube videos Lisa. So I didnt think it must be too big of a thing. But when seeing that some don't... I wasn't sure.

Thank you for your videos by the way. They really do help me to understand what it is like... And I'm sure it's just as easy as you make it appear. :-)

Shane

[dw]

Going back 3 stitches and resewing will NOT leave a loop of thread, the thread will tighten when the needle goes down the hole,

Perhaps I wasn't clear. There will be no loop as we commonly think of a "loop" but just moving the needle back three stitches leaves a short section of thread that originates in the last of the three stitches and runs back...along with your needle...to the first of the three. It will lay on top of the leather and there will be a similar loose section of thread underneath corresponding to the bobbin thread.

Maybe it's not a "loop" in the sense that it's loose but it's not stitched or stitches either. In a technical sense, it is a loop...I don't know what else you would call it. Maybe a three stitches long "backstitch?"

So what do you do with it? It's unsightly if you leave it and if you cut it and tie, burn, or glue it, then what's the point? It is the unbroken continuity of thread that makes a reverse stitch strong. And the convenience of not having to tie it off that makes a reverse stitch attractive.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member





(Message edited by dw on July 23, 2011)

[dw]

A 17" post would allow you to stitch way down deep into the shaft of an already closed boot.

Let's say that you are making a three piece boot--vamp, counter cover and one-piece top seamed in the back.

At some point you will need to close the boot top. You can do that rather crudely or you can add some refinement. One of the ways to refine the back seam is to cover it with a narrow stay. I make mine 5/8" wide. But since the stay is being added after the tops are already in a cylindrical shape, you need some way to stitch neatly along the edges.

A post will do that very well But a 7" post limits how far down the shaft you can start or finish. You just can't cram 14 inches of boot top down around a 7" post.

They used to make a machine--it was a cylinder arm machine--that would sew along the cylinder rather than across it. But it was a massive machine and I have never heard of one being set up to use a size 90 needle and size 46 thread.

That said Seiko's 17" post is probably three or even four times what a 7" post would cost. But it would address the issue of using a machine that wasn't specifically designed to do such work.

But, in that context, if you really want to chance it, or were certain you could finesse it (I don't believe I could), you could always use a patcher.

However, if you're gonna do that then you probably don't need anything but the patcher. With a table it's a flatbed. As is, it will sew in any direction on any enclosed shape greater than two inches in diameter.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

(Message edited by dw on July 23, 2011)

[artvanhecke]

Semantics. Every stitch is a couple of loops. The method is recommended in the Campbell manual. I find it barely noticeable at 6spi and see little affect at 12spi as the resewing of the three stitches seems to camouflage it. I don't use the technique anymore as most of my machines have a deep enough throat to turn the work to lock off. This isn't a production shop so I don't care about speed, hence I tie my stitches off. There is apparently no "wrong" way to do something if the result suits your standards. I can see where on some of the older machines like the ASN with the small throat, turning the work might be a little tricky, hence the back three strategy. Some of the older machines with reverse have a little trouble hitting the same holes on the way back because the needle spacing doesn't correspond, to this day I seldom use reverse for that reason alone.

Art

[tomo]

Hey guys,
You ( or a machine mechanic) can usually adjust the machine so that it will so in the exact same holes when you reverse. The machines are usually set up to back stitch between the existing holes, this is for the rag trade, but for leather we/I want them in the same holes.
Reverse can spoil you but I go with what ever, turn the work, skip back each stitch manually, reverse (if available).
T.

[rosesj]

I bought Carl Chappell's DVD set and he used a flatbed to do everything up to side seaming. He then used a cylindar to side seam.

I know that several of you use a Straight Needle machine to sideseam, and in reality, I think it wouldn't be my best purchase given its limited utility of specialization. But, up to now, everyone has mentioned getting a Post machine, but I wonder what you use it for in the process?

I am looking at a post by Cobra/Artisan but see that it would not be heavy enough to side seam.

7" Tall Post
Gear Driven Top Feed Roller Foot
Gear Driven Bottom Feed Roller Feed
Needle Feed
Top Load Bobbin
Semi-Automatic Lubrication
5-25 Stitches Per Inch
Sews up to 20 oz.
46-92 Thread Size
135x8 Needle System
Digital D.C. Servo Motor
Heavy Duty Speed Reducer
28 LED Super Beam Lamp
Drive Unit With Wheels


These are the specs for the 'bells and whistles' machine they have (the Pfaff 491 clone).

My initial thought was to purchase a flatbed and this 7" post machine. However, I see now, that even if I did, I am not sure where I would be gaining. I imagine that most of you use the post during closing and attaching the vamps to the uppers. But after watching Carl do this all on the flatbed, I am not sure about that impression.

I guess my point is, if I do get the flatbed and have my tops sewn and I get the post (to close or for whatever purpose you use it for)... I am stuck when I get to the sideseaming aspect of the process.

I have access to purchase an Aerostitch machine which would obviously solve this issue, however, I wonder, in reality, what I would be using the Post machine for? 3 machines might seem like nothing to you all... but I am somewhat space limited.

What would you guys do in my situation?

Shane

[dw]

Shane,

I think the historical tradition, not limited to cowboy boots, for side seamed boots is a much heavier thread than cylinder machines typically run. Perhaps this originates in the absence of any machine when side seamed boots evolved.

I've seen cylinder arm machines used for side seaming but I don't care for either the look nor the uncertainty that arises in my mind that the seam would not be strong enough over an extended period of time. And in such stress situations the lighter/thinner thread might have more of a tendency to cut through the leather.

As for a post, if you're considering making shoes, you need a post. If it's just boots for you, then you can do it all with a flatbed machine. Although, having said that, it's a lot cleaner and easier and more "sure-footed' to sew straddle pulls with a post machine.

[hr][/hr]
Without "good," there is no "better," without "better," no "best."
And without the recognition that there is a hierarchy of excellence in all things, nothing rises above the level of mundane.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[center]Little Jack Dandiprat in a white petticoat,
The longer he lives, the shorter he grows.[/center]

[rosesj]

What size thread is optimal and what is acceptable for sideseaming?

And what do you mean 'the look'? How does the appearance differ between Straight needle and Cylinder sideseaming? The clone cylinder model has these specs:

16 ½ " Cylinder Arm
Best and most versatile presser feet in the business
Sews from 6 oz. to 7/8"
Thread sizes from 69 to 415
Triple Feed mechanism
Built in bobbin winder
Reverse stitches in same holes
Stitch Length from 3-22 stitches an inch

I'm left with Handsewing or looking for someone with a Side seaming machine somewhere closeby who will let me use it 5 or 6 times a year. I have no idea how often I will actually need it given this is more hobby than business. BUT, that being said, I want the quality to be excellent regardless.

Shane