The Crispin Colloquy

DW, I could have misread it (1864) as "1800". Sorry. It looks more like 1804 fashions/illustrating style, assuming that was somebody's provisional dating. Only way to now for sure is to write N'ton Museum and ask for Hill's dates at that street address.

Paul, Yup, Sharon found a goody. Even June Swann (and me, mia culpa) fell down a rabbit hole, mis-IDing as shoe shaped terracotta flask as "intrusive 17thc?", when actually it was a 1st century BC "corthune" (theatrical shoe worn by Tragedy actors on stage)--were the 17thc Europeans copying Greek theatrical footwear? I doubt it, just one of those things.

Here's a 1628 "close" shoe, of the style we mistook the flask for--see how confusing it can be?

"Close(d)", IOW not the typical fashionable, first quarter 1600s style w/ open sides, like this one from the same shipwreck:

paul wrote: ↑Wed Jul 25, 2018 6:27 am Yeah, Sharon!
The more I look at historical boots, I'm coming to realize that while the Western Boot had its own story, the patterns existed long before.

And styling. (something I've mentioned/taught to all my students)

I think the case can be made that much of what distinguishes a Western Boot from all the other, two, three, and four piece side-seamed boots in the world comes, at least partially from old world influences--specifically German and Eastern European immigrants who settled in and around the Texas Hill Country.

For instance, outside of boots made in Eastern Europe and Germany, I know of no other "school" of shoe/bootmaking that ever used the box toe that is so iconic to Western boots. I posted a truncated deconstruction of that style of toe on my IG page and one of the foremost shoemakers in Britain commented...implying that he had not known how that technique was done despite having trained and worked for Lobbs St. James.

Even the multiple rows of fancy stitching on tops seem unique to Eastern European and Western bootmakers.

DW,

Thank you for reminding me you had expressed that point previously. I agree.

Who do you think may have influenced the stitched in counter and heel slide?

Paul

das would be a better source than me, for an answer to that question. I have always listened to him carefully (as carefully as I could) but living several thousand miles apart I haven't always had opportunity to. My answer would, perforce, be educated speculation. so, here goes...

As with all things in this enterprise, one decision forces a cascade of other decisions. The sewing machine created a bunch of them.

I think once the sewing machine gained credibility in the Trade, stabbing kind of went by the way. In an unlined boot, if you want a heel stiffener it must be sewn in somehow to be functional at all. That said, a sewn in stiffener is far more functional in a pull-on boot than a "pocketed' stiffener simply because of the mechanics of getting into the boot. The sewn-in stiffener was a proven solution that was easily amenable to the sewing machine. Why change it?

Beyond that, I'm not sure that heel slides are universal even among strictly Western bootmakers, nor am I sure they are necessary. I don't use them anymore...haven't for decades.

I suspect that selecting cheaper lining leather was the trigger for heel slides...just as Goodyear welting is/was the trigger for cheaper, thinner insoles and even leatherboard insoles. And then leatherboard heel bases, etc., etc..

The nearly inescapable consequences of what I call the "Factory Mentality" and "Cascading Expediencies."

IMO...YMMV

I'm afraid I'm out of my historical period, and my familiar regions on that. While I've examined and admired a number of elderly western boots in person (High Desert Museum collection, in Bend, OR), and have all the current books on them (Tyler Beard, et al), DW makes a lot of sense here. The (1) "stitched in" sole leather stiffener, caught in the side seam, the (2) fully lined boot legs, and (3) the heel slide all seem to my limited exposure just a western/cowboy boot thing, solutions or work-arounds to issues of circa 1900 nobody wrote down, and all well-adapted to machine sewing. Slippery (inside) boot legs go on easier for sure, especially when cut tight in the pass line area than rough flesh, and less apt to rub all the hair off your leg, so maybe the move away from waxed calf (grain in) to finer (thinner) grain out uppers leathers necessitated linings? Heel slides do add stiffening up the back panel, so they're less apt to sag and wrinkle down? Dunno, just tossing out best guesses here. I've never seen any of these three features, that I recall, in pre-c.1900, or non-western/cowboy boots.

My teacher...Mike Ives...regularly used veg tanned sheepskin for top linings. it wasn't glazed and aside from the inherent fragility, it wasn't a very good leather for getting your foot into the boot. Plus it was very soft and loose--didn't impart much stiffness to the tops.

I think that there was a period of time when a lot of Western bootmakers used sheep or goat as lining leather esp. for tops. I suspect that in order to address the issues of "sliding" and fragility...and make the tops stand up...makers started using scraps of calf or kangaroo to create that slick surface to aid the foot in getting into the boot. Front and back--my teacher always called them "stays."

Even when other lining leathers became available the practice of a heels slide hung on. If nothing else it prevents the boot from sagging and getting deep pipes in the tops...prematurely.

I don't think there is anything wrong with using heel slides esp. if the lining leather is at all questionable.

That said, I use a firm veg tanned calf (think English lining kip..what makers of English riding boots use, without heel slides, etc..) and none of those concerns bear relevance.It's slick enough; it's firm enough and of very good quality and tensile strength. Nor do I have to deal with "shadowing" or thickness impediments when stitching.

FWIW, when John A. Frye Shoe Co. started out, making cowboy boots in the 1940s, and on through the "harness" boot era (late '60s-'70s) they used a pretty fragile veg-tanned sheep (basil) lining too, and had heel slides up the back inside.

I saw some of those sheepskin liners back in the 70s while doing shoe repair. Unsatisfactory for sure.
I'm sure you are correct in your surmising DW.

I have to correct myself (what was i thinking??!!)..in post #831 I said I don't use heel slides. I misspoke. I do use heel slides, I don't use stays. Which in the back function as heel slides. I do use a narrow (2" wide) heel slide of kangaroo... mostly to ease the concerns of customers rather than because the boot needs it.

Mea culpa

Dee-Dubb,

Glad you clarified yourself! I was fixing to give you a holler!

Homie

P.S. I still use "stays"! I like the way it keeps the tops standing tall!

homeboy wrote: ↑Thu Jul 26, 2018 11:03 am Dee-Dubb,

Glad you clarified yourself! I was fixing to give you a holler!

Homie

Too many birthdays in a row.

Hey, just wondering what kind of knives you guys use in the making process. I've used all straight knives up to this point because of their ease of sharpening and their ability to either be pulled or pushed. I like sharpening my knive by hand and I like a defined bevel. Hard to get that with a curved knife.

In the pic, these are all the knives I use, All straight and all TINA. The smallest 12mm Tina I use for clicking, I don't use the Kobito clicking knife anymore because it is hard to sharpen consistently by hand due to its small size. I the only other knife I use is a Tina welt knife but it definitely isn't necessary, I keep it simple.

Although I can get buy with my straight knives I feel it would be helpful to have a curved skiving knife, mostly for skiving soles for beveled waists. Maybe a smaller one too for skiving upper components.

I've been thinking about taking one of my straight knives (Tina 270G) and getting it curved to my spec by a local knife maker. I don't like the concaved nature of the Tina 270 and I want a slightly steeper curve.

Also, I have a couple of things coming in the mail that im gonna try out:

(1) George Barnsley Clicking Knife - It looks fun to use so I wanna try it. 2) George Barnsley Mill Knife - In the shop I'm at now they use heavy duty leather sheers for cutting insoles and soles from the bends. I don't think leather sheers are that cool so Im gonna see how this crescent shaped mill knife works out with the heavy stuff, just gotta get it very sharp (our sole bends are hard as hell)
Anyways just curious what other people use primarily for carving and skiving and so forth...

Hello all, I was wondering what everyone is using for their reference point for toe bug placement on your vamps? On the last I use a line 1 3/4” (or 2” with the thickness of the insole)up from the heel seat, which is where the vamp quarters/counter cover and side welt intersect. A straight line from this measurement around the the front of the last gives me a reference point a little below the high instep. With all that being said I am having trouble transferring that point to the vamp. Hoisting the heel when lasting, type of leather, where the boot rides the cone of the last etc. seem to play a role in where the toe bug winds up and a 1/2” high or low can be disappointing to say the least.

@jmpete When I first started, I kept a record of where I placed the tip of the toe bug (as measured from the tip of the tongue) for each size. Then as I learned and evolved my techniques I found that I could measure from the high instep on the last to a point on the toe of the last where I wanted to see the tip of the toe bug and then transfer that measurement from 'bell line' on boot forward. I still do it that way.

Of course, you're correct--there are factors that affect where the toe bug ends up--all you mentioned, plus how and how carefully you cut patterns and mount them on the tops and how you control your drafts when lasting, etc..

"Control" is the key word there. The critical issue is to always do everything the same way with the same size patterns (or factor in size differences). That's the only way the records you keep or the techniques you use can mean anything or be relied upon.

@jlboykin

Well! I missed your post about knives...more than a year and a half ago. I don't know how I missed it.

In any case, a few thoughts. I use Tina knives (and knives similar to them) as well as clicking knives and Japanese knives, etc., sometimes interchangeably. Often I'll use a Tina knife for clicking just because it is only sharpened from one side.

I've never tried a mill knife but I have knives that are similar and I find them useful for insole leather and sometimes for outsole. But in truth, for hard leathers like that, a dedicated bench cutter, like a 'five-in-one"is the best bet and what I use most often.

All that said, it sounds like the real issue for you is sharpening...as it is for most makers. I have always said that learning to sharpen knives consistently, and to a high level of sharpness ("scary sharp"), is the most important skill a bootmaker / shoemaker (any craftsman) can have. It is the key to clean clicking--not just the edge but the control you gain from learning to create that edge; clean and even and controlled skiving, and even to creating patterns with a pencil.

Learning to sharpen a knife teaches you to look, hear, and feel and gives you precise and fine control of your hands. And sharp tools. I can't think of another skill so fundamental or so, otherwise, hard to acquire.

I have a lining question. Since it is winter and the boots I made before are too cold, I am about to start a new pair of winter boots. I want them to be rugged, warm and long lasting. The lining however torments me a little.

Currently I am considering three options:

1. Upper leather + 5mm felt lining (which feels nice for some slippers I made before) plus felt covered insole
2. upper leather + 5mm felt lining + leather lining or plus leather / felt covered insole
3. upper + fur lining plus fur covered insole.

Regarding option 3. I have noticed in some commercial boots of my wife that the fur in the heel area has worn of after 5 years - no idea how the 5mm felt would look like after that time.
About options 1. or 2. I am not sure if an extra leather lining will make everything too heavy/stiff and also i am not sure which one is warmer fur or felt.

Can anyone kindly share his experience with thermal insulation / durability? Which version appears to be optimal to you?

Thank you, Carsten

My two cents: my preference would be gaining insulation by wearing thicker, wool, socks, or adding a silk under sock, and making the boots roomier to admit them. My only experience with felt-lined boots is with 10-12" Sorrells (Canadian) arctic boots (rubber foot, leather leg, 1/2" thick removable wool felt inner boot). Even with only occasional wear to fetch wood or shovel snow (it's rarely cold enough in Virginia to need them), the wool felt liners still wear out fast enough I wouldn't want that material to be a permanent part of the boot. You also want to be able to pull the liners out to dry between wearings. I'm afraid if you built the wool felt into the boot, or smothered it over with a lining, moisture and inability to dry after wearing would doom the boots.

Thank you @das. Yes drying might be a problem. So far I was wearing more or less a standard shoe construction (=regular upper +regular leather lining) without additional insultion but cemented rubber soles under the leather sole.

My woolen socks however did not cut it - and I vouch for the lady who is knitting them for me... :-)

But then again you are right: I did not consider allowing extra room for thicker socks - so they might be too compressed for good insulation. Maybe fur keeps more air for insulation in the toe section and dries better than felt?

As far as I know removable liners of felt or fur are the standard, combined with thick wool socks. Unless you are making carriage boots.

@SharonKudrle, what you are saying is in line with the comments from @das . Makes a lot of sense to me to pull the liners out for drying. I did not consider this option. Thank you both, Carsten

If the boots are tightly made and waterproofed then getting wet feet shouldn't be a problem. I've waded through small streams in mine that were only tightly sewn/stitched without getting my feet wet. Avoiding sodden leather from long exposure to damp is another goal to aim for. I'm guessing "insultion" in your previous post means: insulation.

Yes I meant "insulation" - forgive me. That is very impressive that you can wade through water. May I ask: Did you use a stitchdown (Veldtschoen) construction or a regular welt for your boots? If I remember correctly I think I heard someone mentioning that stitchdown might be better for keeping the boot dry?