The Crispin Colloquy

Lance,
It looks like in the tradition of Hungary/Austria and sothern Germany the shoes looks often the way Marcel describe.

I believe the result is decided by the way the holdfast is cut and in what angle the awl is put through it. It is a risk that the shoe ends up with the look of to much "floating" on the welt if the cut is to far from the edge of the insole and if the curve of the awl is to steep. The makers you mentioned are making their shoes on the "floating" side but not to much.

This is more of a "did you see" than anything.

One piece folded Goodyear oxford

The designer, in everything I've seen, likes the "it's worn and old" look.

Nori

I'm not sure if this is the right place to ask but I'm wondering if I could get some feedback on a handout I've just written on making round-closed seams. It's aimed at reenactment shoemakers and reflects my best understanding of the technique.
if anyone has the time or interest to review my instructions and pictures and can point out corrections or suggest improvements I'd be most grateful.

It can be found here: http://wherearetheelves.net/class-notes-for-class-on-round-closing

Thanks.

Alasdair,

Good article, it covered more than I expected. The two main points as I see it that you covered are the stitch to leather proportion and dampening the leather. Excellent!

Cheers,

JesseLee

Alasdair:

Very good!

One typo, it should be 'a core' rather than 'an core' in paragraph 1.

You may also want to make it more clear that the typical stitch is on the flesh side. I know you address the issue of grain-side stitching, and elsewhere you mention marking out the flesh side, but you just may want to highlight the typical approach.

Two questions:

Is there any preferred/recommended stitch length, and/or is there a way to determine the best choice -- e.g. thickness of leather, size of thread, or other?

Do folks ever do a half-knot/overcast when they do the round closing (akin to what people do when inseaming)? The reason I ask is that, when I saw a closer for Edward Green doing a half-round stitch on the vamp/apron seam on some shoes (grain side, visible stitch), he overcast the thread to make a knot in the seam. Obviously, the half-round stitch is different than what you are describing here, but just thought I'd ask.

Thanks, it's a great reference.

Lance

I am hoping one of the many Leather Artisans here might be able to point me in the direction of a video on how to hand stitch a 90 deg corner.

I am making a leather presentation box, and although I am familiar with how to do it, and I have all the tools, it just doesn't look good. I am keeping the left and right needle placement consistent, and I am using a stitch marking wheel and a divider to get everything evenly spaced. The stitches on the starting side (where the awl goes in) look just fine, but the exit side really looks awful for some reason.

Not sure if I should insert the awl half way from one side, then all the way through from the other, more practice...no idea.

Hoping that maybe someone has seen a video that might give me a little direction.

Thanks

John,

firstly, you have to bevel the edges as close to a 45 degree angle as you can. Also,You have to keep your awl at the correct angle consistently, which is much easier when your project is on a fixed and steady place. When your awl is near the exiting side slow down and look you will see the leather bulge, if it doesn't bulge where it should then adjust. It's pretty time consuming at first but like everything you get better with practice. So there you go, that is how I did it, hope it helps.

there's a book called The Art of Making Leather Cases by Al Stohlman.

also, This link can help you

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4c8_8wD_mnc&feature=results_main&playnext=1&list= PLA2562CECBA1D3220

Good luck,

Tibere

Thanks Tibere.

I do have the Stohlman book on Hand Stitching, and it briefly describes how to make the corner stitch. I will just have to practice a bit more before I dive into the real project.

Thanks for the link too!

My good friend Clyde Gilliland recently gave a demonstration for my leather guild on this same topic. Clyde is a Master leather worker and is a member of several area leather guilds, one being Ptairie States Leather Guild in Illinois. Examples of his work can be found at www.pslg.org.

Sorry for the big pics! Not sure what I did wrong?


Here are a few pictures that I took of his demo.

(Message edited by gshoes on May 28, 2012)

Can you boot makers tell me what the proper angle, from the throat line, down would be when trimming my counters and counter covers so my sideseams will be correct (straight) when lasted. I am using a 1 5/8" heel height last. Thanks for any advice you can offer.

Joe,

I'll take a stab at this. As when I took my advanced course with DW for the Full Wellington, DW addressed this.

The angle is effected by the last, so the answer has to come from there, in pattern making. SO try this.

Measure 2" up from the feather line at the side of the heel. Now take your half throat measure from your pattern, center it at the back, at 2", and make a mark at both ends of the distance.
Now come straight down from those marks and measure that distance around from side to side.

I'll say in a stock last heel, you may get a difference of about 9/16" between the two distances. This should give you the measures you need for the angles of your pattern.

Paul

Paul has hit it on the head. On my lasts the distance around the back of the last at the two inch mark is roughly one inch smaller than at the swell of the heel.

You could almost figure this out by doing a mean forme, finding the counter point and then drawing a line from there along the back of the forme to get the angle you need. Fundamentally you're laying it out as Paul described but you draw your sideseam in on the forme perfectly vertical and let the line from the counterpoint along the back of the form represent the angle you actually cut at the side seam. Does that make sense? It's easier to understand if you do it than it is to describe.

I would observe, however, that there are a few mitigating factors that come into play as well. Namely how do you last the boot? Do you last seats up or dead last? Also, I suspect that the amount of side draft and how wide you cut your throats will make a difference. A straight side draft (none in other words) and/or a wide throat will mean that the boot breaks lower on the cone of the last. That can affect the tension at the side seam and how far forward it wants to lie.

Ultimately, however, because we are cutting flat pieces of leather and trying to make them conform to curved surfaces...as well as the other factors I mentioned...you may not get the perfect result the first time out of the gate. You may need to adjust in subsequent attempts. Fitter's models are good for more than just fitting the foot, do you see?

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

Recent comments on "fitting the foot" thread bring up a question I've been wondering for awhile, so I may as well ask now. (this question is addressed to all makers, but for the sake of simplicity I'll use "you" in the singular sense):

Have you ever sent a pair out the door that you weren't happy about? Maybe that particular pair was a struggle from start to finish, didn't crimp like you wanted, finish wasn't the exact shade you were hoping for, toe shape turned out different than you expected, etc. On the up side: the customer is happy and you know the pair is durable, construction is solid and even though the fit isn't as good as planned, it's close enough not to cause any issues.

Still; there's a nagging that you could have and maybe should have done better.

Do you let that customer walk out the door with that pair, or start over? Where do you draw the line without compromising your standards as a custom maker?

I realize this is a can-'o-worms and I'm also learning that bespoke makers have plenty of intense opinions on just about every subject there is! Still; Anyone starting out in this trade has to come to grips with this issue, so I'd like some feedback from the experienced ones on this topic. Where better than this forum to ask, eh?!

Respectfully,
-Nat

Jay Griffith had a saying that I was always fond of...

"Ever once in a while, we get one that's dern near perfect."

Or something to that effect. (take note of the ever once in a while and the dern near )



Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

I was talking to Paul Bond a few years ago and told him I really wasn't completely happy with the boots I was making. He said " I hope to one day make a pair that I'm happy with". I guess what I have decided is that, if I have done my best, is what is important and next time I will do better.

Thanks fellas. Your comments are much appreciated.

-Nat

Greetings all,

I've just written a post on my website attempting to explain how to hold an awl without bruising the median nerve junction in the centre of the palm of your hand. It's entirely based on what I do and I'm wondering if folks who've actually been trained in how to do this properly could cast their eyes over it and let me know if I've got it right, since I'd hate to put people wrong about this.

http://wherearetheelves.net/using-awls-without-hurting-your-hand/

Many thanks.

I want to make a wallet and I have some nice leather for the outside but not really the right stuff for the insides.

Would it be a real bad idea to use that milled veg lining from Waterhouse for the pockets or I have some floppy upholstery leather.

Would these just stretch out forever? Or I could use 4-5. Oz for the insides but that seems super beefy

Courtney

Hey, really. Do you think that milled veg from Waterhouse would work for wallet pockets or is it to stretchy?

I know the milling makes it soft but does that automatically mean stretchy.?

I know it seams like it has a lot of give one way but seems pretty stable when pulled against the lines of stretch.

It's great stuff and I would like to use it for this but don't want to end up with a baggy sock for a wallet pocket.

Anyone?

Courtney

Courtney,

You can always "toggle" that milled veg. I like it for firm linings in shoes. Toggling" simply means to pre-stretch it.It will become more like English lining kip if you do that.

And if it's veg it's inherently non-stretchy, although the milling will create some give. I suspect, milling actually shrinks the non-milled square footage--think of it more like crumpling up a piece of newspaper. The original size is still there and if you flatten/stretch it there is a limit beyond which it will tear. That limit will be very close to, if not identical to, the limit of the hide before it was milled.

That said I have made lots of tri-fold wallets and alligator checkbook covers, etc., using burnishable buffalo calf for inner workings. Nice weight, firm, veg retan, a good selection of colour.

Hope this helps...

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[center]Little Jack Dandiprat in a white petticoat,
The longer he lives, the shorter he grows.[/center]

O.k., cool. so, The waterhouse milled will work. that is good news.

If I wanted to toggle it would i wet it and tack it to the bench or something.

Thanks,
Courtney

If I wanted to toggle it would i wet it and tack it to the bench or something.

Yep. That's all there is to it.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[center]Little Jack Dandiprat in a white petticoat,
The longer he lives, the shorter he grows.[/center]

Courtney,

PS...once you've "un-toggled" it, let it rest a couple of days before you cut pieces to dimension.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[center]Little Jack Dandiprat in a white petticoat,
The longer he lives, the shorter he grows.[/center]

D.W., thanks for your response and for the tips on toggling and untoggling. I think it's gonna work good.

Courtney

No problem. Glad to help.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[center]Little Jack Dandiprat in a white petticoat,
The longer he lives, the shorter he grows.[/center]