The Crispin Colloquy

Lance,

You beat me to it. I read your description...and no offense...but couldn't make heads nor tail of it. But it all clicked on reading Al's instructions. Don't feel bad, though--you've just seen it done, Al has done it...probably numerous times.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

DW:

Alas, I didn't even get to see it done. The fellow just picked up a pair he had been working on and briefly described what he had been doing. That is why I didn't fully understand what he was talking about. If I could have seen him do it, I am sure I could have understood and described it, though not necessarily actually do it myself!

Lance

Lance,

Some years ago (20?), Al visited my shop and while he was here he showed me this technique albeit just around the heel. [I know I have that example in the shop somewhere.] I don't recall him having trouble feeding bristles under the inseam thread but then I was young and sort of dismissed it all (more fool I) as "past history" and beside the point.

There's another one of my strange blind spots. I saw it done, but couldn't make the mental leap from heelseat to the entire outsole nor from the 18th century to the 20th.

I will say this...it is a job that could never be duplicated by machine and might be a bear to repair.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

I just had a nice chat with Terry M. about the whole pump stitching topic.

He said that the traditional manner of making the pumps was to do it as a turn-shoe. Due to the use of only one piece of bottom leather, these are very light and comfortable. However, all the old turn-shoe experts in the UK are retired or deceased, so the pumps are not made this way any longer.

The construction I saw at Lobbs is what Terry said he calls a 'French' pump (or French pump stitch?).

In any event, I was more or less correct in my initial understanding. What is done is that the outsole is made with a holdfast/feather on the flesh side, corresponding to where it will be sewn to the insole. The outsole is cut about 3/16 wider than the holdfast. Then the outsole is sewn to the insole/upper (still not sure exactly what it is sewn to -- forgot to ask -- but most likely the insole/upper stitches) by working/sewing between the sole and the upper. This stitch is something like a chain stitch. Once the sewing has been completed, the edge of the outsole is pushed up tight against the upper, hiding the stitches.

Lance

In my humble opinion the lightest shoe is the turn shoe or any shoe secured with one row of sewing/stitching,I have no idea how a channel shoe with two rows of separate insole sewing and sole stitching can feel and be consider a light shoe! even though the only thing missing is the welt,love to see a diagram of some sort.

Lance,

Correct me if i am wrong,from what i understood of your post is that your shoe is sewn/stitched with a single row thread both insole/upper and outsole,How? I have been thinking it but to no avail, some one needs to sort this thing out for us or show us some pictures or diagrams or a historical reference please.

Nasser

Nasser:

No, I don't think that is correct.

I believe the upper is sewn to the insole, but without a welt. I don't know if it is sewn with a holdfast/feather, or just whip stitched. The outsole is then sewn to the insole, through the rib made on the grain side of the outsole. I am guessing that this thread catches the insole/upper thread, though that is a guess.

Here is a picture of a slipper prepared for this stitch (I think!): http://carreducker.blogspot.com/2008/12/new-week-same-shoes.html

Note that the upper is whipstitched to the insole -- no holdfast.

Here is the finished slipper -- the stitching is not described, but I don't think it is sewn from the grain side.
http://carreducker.blogspot.com/2008/12/goodness-me-3-shows-in-week-we-have.html

If you read the accompanying description, he references the same 3/16" margin that Terry mentioned in my chat with him.

If Jim McCormick ever drops by the Colloquy, perhaps he will clear up our uncertainty.

Hope that helps.

Lance

Lance,

Thanks for the links,I was thinking of whip-stitching a shoe all-round as of late as i do that to the seat but this "pump stitch" got my attention,The maker of the velvet pumps speaks of a pump stitch soles but he doesn't show how the outsole is prepared for sewing/stitching,you speak of a hold-fast on the soles,Correct? but how and where the awl enters and how it makes the stitch(connection) with insole and compete the stitch,I am lost here.

I can't see from the picture that the velvet pump has a hold-fast or not,but than again one has to dig into insole to make the whipstitch lope which can serve as a hold-fast.

Nasser

OK, now here's a question for you: is there any industry standard for these lot numbers stamped inside footwear? The example below is a Frye boot #2511. I might be tempted to read the 87 in the middle as the year of production, but wanted ask the gang first.

Hey Al,
I know with saddles there is no standard. Sometimes companies will change the numbering system they use so that can add to the confusion even amongst their own people.

The numbers usually include year, month and day, but can and usually include the plant (or country) where they were made. Saddles from Bates in Australia for example, have a "V" in the system to show they were made in Vietnam.

More power to y'awl
T.

I've seen a few videos on youtube of factory workers hand-sewing moccasin construction, but I cannot find them again via search.

Does anyone have links?

Back in the beginning of February ('11) we were discussing pump stitches and related matters. I described something I heard about in London for sewing the soles of lightweight pumps/slippers.

Recently, the folks at CarreDucker posted a description and some pictures on their blog:
http://carreducker.blogspot.com/
which covers this technique.

See the May 27th, 2011 entry.

Lance

Looking for opinions or answers. I know when building pull on boots, there is going to be a little slippage in the heel, especially when new. Is there a certain amount of slippage that is expected in a new bespoke pair of shoes until all the leather has had a chance to relax. My opinion is that most people are so used to buying cheap shoes that bend in all directions and don't take the time to break in a good pr. of shoes before they start complaining. Only my opinion. What is the concensous here?

Kevin,

Nice to see you back!.

Heel slippage...hoo hum. How do you quantify that?

I mean, you have this remark by your customer that his heel is coming up, say, a quarter inch. Is it really coming up that much or is it more...or less?

Hard to say, isn't it?

All boots will slip because the heel stiffener is not cupped to the extent that it is on a shoe...if it were, we wouldn't be able to get our feet into the boot...and because the outsole is stiff.

Until the outsole flexes, the backpart of the boot will tend to resist rising with the foot.

So the thickness and the stiffness of the outsole (the insole too, although to a lesser extent) will have a big impact on how much slippage is experienced initially.

How much is too much? Well, I'd say an eighth inch is probably about right. But if you can get it to be almost unnoticeable without clamping the foot so tightly into the back of the boot that it is uncomfortable, all the better.

All that's in the long heel and instep measurements/relationship.

That's my

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

Thanks DW,
I am mainly looking for an amount a shoe is going to slip in the heel, if any, when new. My wife tells me all the time that I don't explain myself very well.

Kevin,

If it's a shoe, it's another story. I'd say little or none.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

Here's a handy chart that shows which needle system goes with which Singer sewing machines.
needle systems

Lisa

Does anyone have an opinion on a Narrow Wedge point leather needle? I've found some needles that are the correct system for my flatbed and I can get them as small as size nine, but only in the Narrow Wedge point.

Lisa

Hi Lisa,

The wedge is the "original" style of leather needle. My Campbell awls are all wedge, you can adjust the rotation of the awl to give you different stitching (----- vs. \\\ vs. ///// vs. |||||, never used that last one). However with the threaded (closed needle) machine it will be completely different systems (usually a couple of letters after the system) to change the orientation. I guess ------ is the wedge you are talking about, only problem is if you shorten up the stitch length too much it will cut the leather.

Probably more than you wanted to know. Short form, wedge works, just don't shorten up too tight.

Art

Hey Arthur's right.
Wedge is great, they're my preference. They best imitate the awl point used in hand sewing.
Tom.

Lisa,

I think the following link is correct at least as far as the illustrations is concerned (I had some discussion about this with the Schmetz representative). Here

If it is correct, then the wedge needle will mean that you cannot sew a small spi because the needle is cutting in the same line as the stitching. But you will be able to get closer to the edge.

If you try to tighten up on the spi too much you will either cut you material entirely or weaken the seam, at the least.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

Hi Lisa,

Groz-Beckert have a very useful PDf showing the seam appearance of various point types. You can download it here http://groz-beckert.com/website/media/en/media_master_376_low.pdf

I always find the Schmetz site annoying to navigate and difficult to link to because it's all frames based but there's really good info on there too. This page has a good description of point codes:
http://schmetz.com/06info.htm

They used to have a PDF similar to Groz-Beckert's but I can't find it any more.

Alasdair,

Well both the G-B and the Schmetz information makes are consistent with the info in the link I posted but the description given to me by the Schmetz rep is just the opposite of what is posted on your sites.

I think this new information you posted is correct. The wedge point makes cuts perpendicular to the line of stitch and therefor you should be able to stitch at smaller(tighter spi. But when you get close to the edge the seam will get weaker.

I always thought the rep was a bit confused but since I don't use either wedge or cross points I didn't really think too hard about it. The wedge and cross points are really the only ones that have deleterious effects.

so if you're just gonna do ornamental stitching, Lisa, I think the wedge points will be fine but if you're thinking about sewing close to the edge on kangaroo, for instance. I'd be real cautious.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

Haha if I can find the reference - I think it was in a little book Schmetz use to produce on there needles, they had 80 -90 different leather points!

I have a question for anyone who has a point of view on the following.

When I was with Marcell (and I believe I remember reading this in something he once wrote as well), he was emphatic that the upper should intersect the welt at 90 degrees, even around the toe. In other words, the toe should look like this:


_| or _\ (depending on the shape of the last)

rather than how toes usually look, which is more like this (with the toe going out/forward from the welt, then up):


_) or _/


[Hope the diagrams make sense]


Has anyone else heard this or read about this anywhere else? In looking at Marcell's shoes, his upper/welt intersection do seem to demonstrate his desired effect, but in looking at other esteemed makers' products (e.g. Delos, Jim McCormick, Koji Suzuki, etc.) they generally have the toe going forward/up from the welt before reaching the end of the insole/last.

Thanks,
Lance

lance,

This has to do with how one cut/prepare the feather edge,if you desire square/90 degree edge look,than cut the feather square not round below the lip/holdfast,keep in mind the foot edge is rounded not square, when preparing for the square look the sharp edge of the insole might cut the lining due to the sharp angle of the insole feather when the foot rolls,this can't happen when the feather edge is rounded,this was my teacher warning,i personally like the look of the square edge but always aware of the warning.

Nasser