Seeking knowledge or survey

Share secrets, compare techniques, discuss the merits of materials--eg. veg vs. chrome--and above all, seek knowledge.
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gaid
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Re: Seeking knowledge or survey

#101 Post by gaid »

All,

Somedays ago I mentioned a trick I learnt from a friend in London.
I'm sure they will explain it better then all my words. The good thing with this method is that no force is needed to come close to the wood in the waist area. On these I have not used anything but my hands.
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Re: Seeking knowledge or survey

#102 Post by gaid »

All,

Somedays ago I mentioned a trick I learnt from a friend in London.
I'm sure they will explain it better then all my words. The good thing with this method is that no force is needed to come close to the wood in the waist area. On these I have not used anything but my hands.
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Re: Seeking knowledge or survey

#103 Post by gaid »

Well, I lost a sentence somewhere! When I talked about "they will explain..." , I ment the pics above.
Janne Melkersson
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Re: Seeking knowledge or survey

#104 Post by paul »

Janne,
Oooh, I like those curves. The pictures do make your point clear.

Jon, Kevin and whoever,

I'd like to return to the zipper boots I'm making for a little counsel, if I may. I have used the Elastic Sided Boot with Vamp from Koleff as a standard, extended the top above the ankle, and run a zipper down the center of the area where the elastic would be. I made the lining for the quarters about 10mm smaller at the ankle, which seems not quite enough. But it'll work I think. The counter will be a handmade leather stiffener between the lining and quarter. The zipper has been stitched into the quarter with one row of stitches, and another will follow when the lining is installed.
So, it's about time to install the vamp and lining on the quarters. And this is where my quandry is.
Should the layers overlap alternately, which would expose the quarter lining edge, or should I sandwich the quarter and it's lining between the vamp and it's lining? There seems to advantages to either way, but I'm interested in someone's input.
TIA, PK
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Re: Seeking knowledge or survey

#105 Post by cmw »

Janne

Great idea!
It looks like what we did when doing the finish work in a old house. you just let the tention in the material do the work for you.

CW
jonathon

Re: Seeking knowledge or survey

#106 Post by jonathon »

Paul.
Apologies for my delayed responce. Had a very hectic weekend, and last night (monday) I went to see a band with my brother and didn't get home till late. Went to see COUNTING CROWS by the way. There first visit to Australia. They were awsome!
Anyway back to these boots of yours.My opinion would be to avoid any over lap in the linings altogether. Have you considered doing a 2 piece lining with a seam at the front and rear.Should you decide on a seperate vamp lining however then I would suggest the vamp lining should overlap the quarter lining.

Cheers.
Jon
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Re: Seeking knowledge or survey

#107 Post by needshoes »

Hello, I'm searching for info on the mechanics and process considerations behind making orthopedic shoes. I'm in desperate need of building up a understanding of process technique for my own personal needs. I'm a potter and glassworker and am extremely active, however, I've also suffered an injury and had corrective surgery which has numbed out my feeling on the lower end of my feet. I walk pretty well but am prone to grind down shoes in no time. I've had special shoes made up but they have never lasted long. I would like to try and get ahold of enough info to at least rebuild shoes if not create them from decent components. Any ideas or info resources would be very appreciative.
Right now I'm spending about 3k a year to keep myself soled which is absurd. Also starting up a thread on orthopedic issues might really help others who want to try and tap into the market of shoes for the disabled or those needing something prescribed by a POD. Thanks...Willy Kevo
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Re: Seeking knowledge or survey

#108 Post by paul »

Willy,

If making your own shoes is your absolute goal, others than myself will have the information and resourses for instruction you'll need. Tho I'd be happy to contribute what I'm learning in making orthopedic shoes myself, my own experience is in shoe repair.
If you've been happy enough with the shoes you've been wearing but just need to replace soles too often, you'd get satisfaction sooner learning how to replace them first, while you pursue shoe making instruction. If that is your conclusion, I'd be happy to be of assisance with technique and materials.

PK
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Re: Seeking knowledge or survey

#109 Post by dai »

This introduces myself and some thoughts about the making of heavy work boots. I am David Kilgour, a new HCC member. I want to make traditional UK shepherd's hill boots for myself, and I welcome guidance from readers here. I have tried before with ideas from Paul Hasluck's Boot Making and Mending. With this minimal instruction I did make a working boot, that held together for a few months; a happy result for a first attempt but no competition for the 10 years and more some claim for the working life of the real thing. Now I have a few more books, and have been studying the HCC list and archive CD for a while, and have gathered up some tools and materials.

Typically the shepherd's boots are well sprung at the toe, with one piece backs to the waxed kip uppers, about 3mm thick, grain side to the foot. The bottom construction is brass screwed wire and stitched. In my time they were bench made with some machine work rather than handmade. I wore out a couple of pairs in the last 30 years, and am now in New Zealand where the style isn't made now, if it ever was. Though there is at least one maker still operating in the UK (one that I know of), my interest is to try to make these boots myself. A maker, the late Dick Goudie, is commemorated with his work on http://www.maybole.org/community/citizens/profiles/goudie/dick.htm where the style of boot is illustrated. Look around the same site for more about Mr Goudie and an extensive history of the Maybole shoe industry.

Perhaps the long working life of the boot is entirely a product of the machine age, the rigid brass screw construction, hob nails and other iron fittings saving wear on the sole. I don't have any historical information that suggests that the same longevity in rough use could come from hand stitched construction and without the hobs, but my expectation is that handmade methods were in use for making something similar. Anyway, since I have no machinery and I intend to use hand tools, for upper making too, then I would welcome any advice on heavy work boot construction in this way as I proceed.

I chose to make the lasts myself, with negligible information on this. My method was to roughly copy a shoe last, adding more toe spring but not quite the upturn of the traditional fully sprung pattern (as I couldn't visualise the end result), also leaving more wood around the top of the cone than that on a shoe last, reasoning that this 3mm upper leather will have much less stretch than thinner shoe uppers, and anyway, being a boot, needs more fullness here. These notions are my reading of Bordoli's books, and at my remote distance from experienced boot makers, they could be my misinterpretations.

Now I can go ahead and make a pair of boots using this rough reasoning, making mistakes to learn from and discuss. However, I would be glad of being forewarned of any grave, silly and expensive mistakes if I seem to be incubating any.

My background is as a wearer rather than a maker. I first wore shepherd's boots working on the land in Lancashire UK. The makers of those were in Strathmiglo, Scotland. I got another "no-name" pair from a shoe store in Durham, Northern England. These were strong and comfortable for heavy outdoor work, favoured by "old fashioned" country workers, but not typical farmer's boots of the day.
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Re: Seeking knowledge or survey

#110 Post by das »

David K.

I thoroughly enjoyed reading your post, end especially seeing Mr. Goudie's web-site. Now those are boots!

As any number of us have said, nobody can learn to make boots just from reading books, but neither can one learn to make boots very well today without having recourse to them IMO. Fifty or 100 years ago where so many living makers, one could rely solely on the traditional methods of learning, but today this is just as much a lesson in history as anything else, and the books fill the needed gap.

Maybe you've tried, thought of, and done all this to begin with, but I'd try the following:

1) Write to Mr. Goudie's children, tell them your story, and say you're genuinely interested in making shepherds' boots, and see if they won't sell you some of the old fellow's lasts in your size to start. Not only "the last shall be first" in bootmaking generally, but from looking at the pictures, that last not only has incredibly high toe-spring to overcome the rigid soles and walking up hill, but a prominent amount of "swing" [bent inward like a healthy foot]. I don't think you'll achieve the same effect trying to remodel a standard shoe last. That last is not unlike some Lancashire clog lasts I've seen too, so you might investigate those as well for suitability, or contact the firm that's still going.

2) I'd suggest writing the family as well, for any in-process, or incomplete boot uppers he may have had left. Or better, ask for the a tracing of the pattern in your size, from which you can grade up/down into other sizes. If you got the uppers you could of course use them, but you could also examine them for construction details. It looks like a standard Navvies' Blucher, like you said with a one-piece back--a dead simple pattern, but getting it to fit such an extremely-shaped last is the trick here. A boot that stout, if not fitted just right, will surely "kill" the wearer, because it's not a very forgiving class of boot.

3) On the standard brass screwed construction, if you don't plan on manufacturing them for sale, there's no reason to hanker after the machines. I'd consider hand-riveted [AKA: "nailed"] construction by hand. The bottoms of your lasts ought to be plated with a sheet of iron for this however, which is another reason to try and get a genuine last. The proper brass rivets [called clinch-tacks over here]--always use solid brass--are still available in the USA from D. B. Gurney Co., as well as Brockton Nail & Tack Co., both in Massachusetts; however I'm sure there might be sources more local to where you are. Looks like 11/8" length brass wire nail would be about right, and you'd have to go to Brockton for that length. Get several sizes to be sure they're not too long/short for whatever your soles are, and of course longer ones for the heels. The points of the rivets should just barely break through the insole, curl neatly back burying themselves in the leather, and clinch on the iron-plated last. You should barely see, and more importantly never *feel* the clinched points.

4) Again, the specific lasts seem to the most critical thing for this boot. The uppers can be hand-stitched with little to-do, but I'd stick with hand-riveted soles, and omit any stitching down there at least to begin.

Good luck, and let us know how you are coming on reviving shepherd boot-making in NZ.
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Re: Seeking knowledge or survey

#111 Post by dai »

Al

Thank you for your suggestions on how I could approach making the shepherd's hill boots. Indeed to make boots from book guidance is not my first choice, and gradually I am meeting with people who are helping me. It's a troublesome beginner who would try to emulate a style from the other side of the world though email :&#62Image.

I will contact Mr Goudie's daughter Mary again, though I shy away from asking her "trade secrets" of this design which is perhaps an inheritance and possible livelihood for new generations of Goudie bootmakers in this specialised work. This is not at odds, I think, with the open discussion here; where masters choose to share knowledge even with those like myself who may be just passing through. And as you suggest I will contact the other maker I have been told of who is in Derbyshire UK.

As you have pointed out, there are features of the hill boot design, the "incredibly high toe spring" and the "prominent amount of swing" that have me asking beginner's questions about first principles.

Is the bottom of the hill boot rigidly constructed (by riveting) to keep the spring there? Would so much spring otherwise collapse in a boot stitched rather than riveted, or would skilled lasting and choice of materials alone enable the spring to remain fixed regardless of clenched rivets being there or not?

Some flat land shepherd's, farmers and gamekeepers would still choose a well sprung hill boot, maybe for comfort, maybe for vanity. I admit to both. And as you say the Lancashire clogs were well sprung, and these I remember being sold in Lancashire town of Fleetwood, for workers on the very flat fish processing dock. Is it right that the clogs are so well sprung because the foot cannot bend the rigid wooden sole, so the sole must be sprung to the extent that the foot would bend to freely if it wasn't so constrained?

Now to "the prominent swing, bent inward like a healthy foot". Is a shoe last then straighter, but since the material of the shoe is more flexible this straightening is not a problem, but a feature giving a neater appearance? And if I use the exact tracing of the foot for the last bottom have I come close to including the natural swing, or is the swing in the hill boot more inward yet?

About the whole backs, as in the Blutcher pattern and with 3mm thick leather. Should the backs be shaped somehow before lasting (blocked) or will this formidable material shape during lasting so that the back is not just straight up and down?

These are the circular thoughts of a beginner! I will try to get proper lasts for the job eventually and meanwhile try a "test boot" on my DIY lasts to see if they can make any sense at all of what I want them to do.

And I can see I have to be clearer about what I do want the boots to do. Do I want as near a Goudie style as I can, and learn to use rivets, or do I want to apply the waxed end making I have so much enjoyed learning about, with all the welts and whistles that go with it to make a stitched variant? I guess I have to dive in at some point and stop the procrastination that diverts energy into collecting tools, books and questions.
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Re: Seeking knowledge or survey

#112 Post by das »

David,

Glad to be of help. If you think making shoes from the other side of the world via e-mail is rough going, you should try making authentic replicas of 250 to 400 year old archaeological shoe fragments--that's what do mostly. Cheer up, at least there are still folks alive who can help you with this kind of boot. Unless I hold a séance, I'm stuck with the books mostly.

Now, down to cases...

I don't need to tell you to tread lightly when you write Goudie's daughter, nor say anything that might scare her, but I'd think you'd be alright saying you'd like to purchase a spare pair of those special lasts in your size, and maybe any in-process uppers, because you desperately loved her father's boots and want to try to make yourself one pair. Don't sound even vaguely like you're contemplating going into the business--you just want them for your own use, right?

The lasts are the basis of any footwear, and emphasizing their importance cannot be stressed strongly enough at this phase. If you want *that* boot, *that* look, *that* fit, you really need to start with *that* last, especially in this case where it is so extreme and unusual. You're not likely to find another one to mackle-up, or make do. You need that last first off. Second choice would be to get a pair from the other firm, if it's the same design. Third choice would be to ask them what is the model number, and then contact Spring-Line Last Co., Moulten Park, Northampton [UK], and see about having a pair turned in your size. But, I'll bet, if you approach them right you ought to be able to get an old pair.

===============
"asking beginner's questions about first principles. Is the bottom of the hill boot rigidly constructed (by riveting) to keep the
spring there? Would so much spring otherwise collapse in a boot stitched rather than riveted, or would skilled lasting and choice of materials alone
enable the spring to remain fixed regardless of clenched rivets being there or not?"
==============

I'm not sure how to weave these features together in a simple explanation, especially since I've no first-hand experience with that boot, but I'll try. Toe-spring is usually increased in any boot that has rigid, or semi-rigid bottom, so you can walk more easily without having to or being able to force the bottoms to flex. Wooden-soled clogs are an example--they won't flex, so the toe-spring is raised way up so you can sort of roll along. I think the high toe-spring in these boots is to overcome the rigid bottoms. Now the bottoms would still be nearly rigid, if that thick, and stitched. The problem there, however, would be stitching that much material, which was probably why riveting was adopted for them. Besides, it's faster, cheaper, and more waterproof. The "why" and "wherefore" are beyond my ken I'm afraid in this case. My best guess is that the exceedingly thick leather soles were adopted for wear/protection/durability first, then the toe-spring was raised via the last design, [even higher than a wooden-soled clog, for walking on cobbles and pavements], because these were to be worn on hills, and one wouldn't want the toes to plow into the dirt with every step ascending hills. Subsequently, riveting is just the logical construction method the design dictated. What holds the toe-spring up? It's mostly the last-shape and the upper, or to be blunt, they're made that shape, so they pretty much stay that shape. As I said, I'd wager even *if* they could be made that thick and stitched, it wouldn't compromise the spring much at all, so you wouldn't flatten the toe-spring out or loose it in wear--not in a boot that heavy.

=============
"Is it right that the clogs are so well sprung because the foot cannot bend the rigid wooden sole, so the sole must be sprung to the
extent that the foot would bend to freely if it wasn't so constrained?"
=============

Yes.

=============
"Is a shoe last then straighter, but since the material of the shoe is more flexible this straightening is not a problem, but a feature giving a neater
appearance?"
============

In general "most" mass-production shoe lasts are too straight, as you say, because it is: 1) easier and more economical to design and make shoes on them, 2) the majority of people can tolerate that shape in commercial footwear for everyday wear [it's a "problem", but they live with it], and 3) our idea of a "good fit" comes from a totally different philosophical premise than the shoe manufacturers who patronize the last designers/makers, etc. It's a long and grim tale, so I'll spare you the details, but suffice it to say, the footwear industry "discovered" toe "swing" as a fit variable in shoe last designing for mass-production c.1880s-90; learned how much was too much/not enough, etc. c.1900-10; experimented and got it generally about right in the 1920s, and '30s for mass-produced lasts/shoes; then after WW II, promptly "forgot" it again it seems except in children's shoes. Work boots, and other specialized types such as military combat boots, usually have more "swing", that is they're more anatomically twisted left and right in the bottom shape.

==============
"And if I use the exact tracing of the foot for the last bottom have I come close to including the natural swing, or is the swing in the hill boot more inward yet?"
==============

Yikes, that's a tough one--if it were but that simple... When a bare foot is standing dead flat on the floor, as it would be for tracing round, the great toe is at it most medial extent [in most cases]. So a last swung to that degree should be sufficient for nature. I observe that in gait, however, *some* person's great toes actually "grasp" out medially further still, if the footwear doesn't restrict or pinch the toe.. As the great toe is raised up off the floor, however, either by muscles or by toe-spring, it moves not straight upward in most cases, but upward and inward [laterally], so it might not need so much "swing" with that huge toe-spring. I just can't say. Experiment by looking at your own bare feet and watching what happens as you raise your own toes. Some people have bunions, or a laterally-tilted joint at the great toe, so their toe is bent inward towards the center-line of their foot. This person would naturally not need as much "swing" in their last. This is now moving dangerously close to trying to teach custom boot fitting via the internet, which is impossible. If you only aim to make yourself a pair or two of these boots, again, I suggest you just try to get the Goudie last, which obviously has plenty of "swing". Or, if that fails, maybe she'll do you a bottom tracing, or insole pattern off the last to guide your last-making efforts as regards shape [i.e. "swing"].

==============
"Should the backs be shaped somehow before lasting (blocked) or will this formidable material shape during lasting so that the back is not just straight up and down?"
==============

Well, I use 2.5 mm. uppers, and if you soak them it water before lasting, with a bit of heave-ho, and some hard lasting, you can usually get them pulled down to the wood. A lot is in the patterning, especially with no back-seam/heel-curve. If the center-back fold is angled wrong, they'll never come close to the back of the last. Experiment with the patterns, if you can't get Ms. Goudie to send you uppers [or her pattern]. You've got not only your 3 mm upper, but who knows how much of a stiffener or counter around the back too. I guess the easy thing to say at this point is, you'll never get as close or as "good" a fit in the heel with a one-piece quarter as you would a shaped and seamed one, but if this is an integral feature of these boots, obviously it's okay that way. My guess is too, that a little looseness in the quarters won't hurt, so your heel can slip up and down a bit--you do wear very heavy socks with these, right?

==================
"Do I want as near a Goudie style as I can, and learn to use rivets, or do I want to apply the waxed end making I have so much enjoyed learning about,
with all the welts and whistles that go with it to make a stitched variant?"
==================

These are philosophical questions that only time can answer. I will say this in closing though, I haven't seen many [any?] boots with bottoms that thick that were stitched, so you might be stuck with riveted--but hey, have fun. You can always make another pair with rivets, or even wooden pegs Image
Edward Shirley

Re: Seeking knowledge or survey

#113 Post by Edward Shirley »

As you all know that I have been attempting my hand at shoe making,well here is where Iam at.I have completed the uppers the linning,heel stiffner.Now all this was done with the upper turned inside out.The closing back of the upper was sewed at 5mm from the cut edge so was the linning but the linning seemed slightly big once turned to the right side but once reversed it all fell in place.Once I put the upper on the correct side there were slight wrinkles,will this come out after lasting.Ok!!!!was there anything that was done right.Don't worry about the critisim I have plenty of towels on hand.As for that linning I think the next time I will sew it a little smaller.Looking foward to hearing what the problem was or was not.
Ed
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Re: Seeking knowledge or survey

#114 Post by gaid »

Ed,
As you already have noticed the lining pattern must be smaller then the upper pattern. If you use as much as 5 mm seam allowance at the back then you have to trim of the surplus. I use just 2mm seam allowance and then it is enough with using the hammer to make it smooth. Don't you worry about those slight wrinkles, if you can't get rid of them by just using the pliers you can trow them into a bucket of water, or as I do spray luke warm water or leather softener on the uppers. If there was anything done right? Well, if the uppers fit the last then the pattern was done right. If the shoe fit the customers feet then the last was done right. And if the customer is willing to pay for your work then the making was done right too! Good luck with your shoes.
JEM
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Re: Seeking knowledge or survey

#115 Post by dai »

Al

Thanks for your extensive and enlightening response to my mixed bag of questions about spring and swing. The lasts I have I cut out from firewood with an axe and then carved with a heel shave, shameful abuse of a trade tool, but that was all that was available. A scan of the lasts "in progress" is posted in the "tests" section of the colloquy.

I've sent a message to Mary, Mr Goudie's daughter reporting my progress and inviting her to look in on this discussion. She is keen to record her father's work I know. I told her that if a shepherd wanted to risk buying a pair of boots of my making I would risk selling them. What else could I say :&#62Image

You mention that bottom stitching the thick material of the shepherd's boots may give me difficulty, and I can agree. My guide previous to HCC was Hasluck's Boot and Shoe Making and Mending. Boot materials in one hand and book in the other I set out to make a welted boot. Stitching the sole to the welt I had trouble getting the awl to appear tidily in the channel, so I couldn't imagine having success later sewing on the heel through much thicker material. Instead I chose to use wooden pegs. Any hints on how to put an awl in at the top lift and have it appear in the bottom of a channel at the outer heel? Hasluck recommended wetting and soap. My own feeling was that a long apprenticeship would help combine soap, water and awl in the correct proportions for success.
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Re: Seeking knowledge or survey

#116 Post by das »

David,

You're entirely welcome. Enjoy me while you can, as my "spare" [whatever that is] time for Forum-writing is spotty these days.

I'll try to check out your lasts over in Tests, but I never got a posting altering me they were there. I'll respond about them here, so our conversation doesn't get scattered all over.

Good luck with Mary Goudie. I think she'd be flattered you're trying to make a pair like her dad's, and she certainly shouldn't see you as a threat--like you're going to go into mass-production of them "tomorrow". I hope she helps you with lasts at least, as the right lasts will save you a lot of headache as a beginner.

As to your sole-stitching wandering in and out of the channel, that's mostly a matter of feel and practice. One trick you might try, especially for heavy work, is to cut a strip of uppers leather, say 1/2" wide. Lay it up against your upper all around the welt, and secure it with a few touches of paste, or even tacks. When you go to stitch, piercing downward from the welt, use this strip as a "bumper" to butt the awl up to to brace it each time, to keep it in the exact same angle of entry, and you'll avoid getting awl rub-marks on the actual upper too. This should help keep all your stitching stitches in a neat row on the welt. Before you cut your channel, make a few test-holes from the welt all around, so the awl point barely breaks the surface of the outsole. This will leave marks to guide you, later, in cutting your channel [actually I'd use an open groove for this heavy work], by following these "dots". One problem I see beginners have, is they cut their channels to follow the edge of the outsole shape, but then their line of stitching from the welt doesn't always follow the same curves exactly, especially around the joints and the toe, so the stitching wanders up and out of the channel in those places. Just practice, practice, practice...

If you're going to be brave and try to stitch the whole heel stack, yes, it must be wet--soggy even--so you can pry open the intervals between the group of lifts you're planning to stitch [and stitch to], and get in there with the awl [you must use a heel-awl--a sewing awl won't do here]. If I were you, I'd make a sewn seat or rand, and only stitch the "piece-sole" [that grafted-on bit of the outsole] and the split-lift, or these and at most one additional heel lift, then peg the rest of the lifts. I've seen 17th c. jackboots [really heavy work] with 2"-3" high stacked leather heels that were stitched in groups of, say, 3 lifts all the way down to the top-piece; but the effect was often pretty rough-looking, and the heel-lifts were lighter weight than our soling. In my experience, nothing's firmer, more solid, or long-wearing than a well beaten down and pegged [only] heel stack. Add hob-nails on the top-piece for wear, but never to hold it on.

I've heard of using soap or tallow on the surface of the welt to lubricate the stitching awl. You might just try plunging the awl blade into beeswax [or soap if you want] between every stitch. And on stitching the heel, you are "allowed" to pierce down from the rand part-way, then up from the bottom to meet in the middle at each hole, but I've found it difficult to get the holes to line up this way.

Remember: "if it was easy, it wouldn't be bootmaking".
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Re: Seeking knowledge or survey

#117 Post by dai »

Al

I really appreciate the "spare" time you give to my queries. Your responses clear up so many questions that otherwise would be unresolved for me. The tip about using a strip of leather against the upper to align the awl consistently is an example, and I had read of it to protect the upper, but this other purpose I had to have pointed out to me. So too with the methods of heel stitching; I had wondered if I was "allowed" to just stitch a portion of the lifts. That's my lot of questions for now. Next is to get a proper pair of last and meanwhile to see what I can get out of the ones I made. Here they are, yet to have some sort of break cut into them. All I can say of them is that I vaguely copied the one shoe last I had here but used my measurements and a side profile drawing of my foot with the heel raised and a wedge under the toes for spring height.
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Re: Seeking knowledge or survey

#118 Post by das »

David,

Those look like mighty handsome lasts you chopped out of firewood! I would band-saw out the instep into a scoop-block, however, otherwise you might never get it out of the finished boot. And don't forget to drill the last-hook holes for slipping the last.
shoestring

Re: Seeking knowledge or survey

#119 Post by shoestring »

Welt Sewing;is there a certain type needle to sew on welts, right now I am using egg eye needles heated an bent at the tips,should the stitch go between the leather with the needle not touching the last or that does not matter as long as there is proper construction of all materials.The size welt being used is 9/16"x1/8".Thanks in advance.

Ed
Sarah Davison

Re: Seeking knowledge or survey

#120 Post by Sarah Davison »

Help! What can be done about excessive heel slippage in a pair of walking heel slip-on boots? The short heel measurement is correct. My customer's feet are very narrow. I think I will have to relast them anyway, so I can make some adjustments then. Any advice?
Sarah
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Re: Seeking knowledge or survey

#121 Post by dw »

Sarah,

Think about this...try to visualize the foot inside the boot. Why would a heel slip? More than the usual initial small amount, I mean? There are only a limited number of reasons that the heel *could* slip and all but one of them... that I can think of...involve an incorrect short heel measurement. This isn't just some stubbornness on my part that I keep emphasizing this point...it stands to reason, that's all. The mechanics of the interaction between the boot and foot allow almost no other explanation. "Says so in the scriptures"

If the foot is not being held into the back of the boot snugly enough, the heel might slip. Maybe the last is too long, or maybe the instep measurement is too big...either way also affects the short heel.

Maybe the heel on the last is too wide for the heel of the foot. that would cause slipping but again the short heel would be affected.

The only possible cause of excessive heel slippage that doesn't involve an incorrect short heel measurement would be if the patterns were cut incorrectly and the tops ended up choked and never pulled down on the cone of the last and, as a consequence, the counter itself were tilted back and could not cup the heel of the foot correctly. Come to think of it, though, that too might very well involve an incorrect short heel measurement--not one directly related to the last but one that is too large inside the boot for reasons other than the measurement on the last.

Tight Stitches
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Sarah Davison

Re: Seeking knowledge or survey

#122 Post by Sarah Davison »

Darn, I was afraid you would say that!Image
I'll go back to my original measurements and review everything. Thanks for the help!
Sarah
robinoftwyford

Re: Seeking knowledge or survey

#123 Post by robinoftwyford »

I don't know if this is the correct section for this, as this is my first visit to this forum, but ...
Anybody know an easy way to dye (bleach) leather to white? I have heard of collecting urine, let it sit for about ten days and use that, but there MUST be better ways, yes?
Any assistance would be very much appreciated.

Roy
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Re: Seeking knowledge or survey

#124 Post by dw »

Roy,

Welcome to the Crispin Colloquy. Many are off in Witchita Falls this weekend for the Annual Boot and Saddlemakers' Convention. But your faithful janitor is here...pushing the broom, pushing the broom.

As for bleaching leather white....I'm no expert but think about this...unless the underlying leather was white to begin with it cannot be bleached *back* to white. Even with cloth, such as cotton, the essential fibers are white no matter what colour it has been dyed. An alum tan might be able to be bleached back to white if it's dirty or if it has been dyed with certain dyestuffs that are less than permanent. But I don't know of any other leather that is, att he core, white. I think that the colour that the leather comes out when tanned...chrome blue, or tan, or reddish tan, whatever...depending on the tannage, is gonna be the fundamental colour. And no matter what you do, you'll get not lighter than that. Otherwise it would in fact be a "dying" process rather than a bleaching process. And so far as I know there is no reliable method for making leather white short of mineral salts....which is what white dye is generally composed of (or it least it was until recently.

I know that doesn't help much but when everybody gets back from the party and has had a chance to shake those "post-party blues," maybe someone else will have further input.

And, no worries...this is a *good* place to ask such a question.

Tight Stitches
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Re: Seeking knowledge or survey

#125 Post by dai »

My search for lasts and patterns (mentioned earlier in this thread) for Scottish shepherds' hill boots is ongoing. I recently saw again a pair of these boots made by the late Dick Goudie (of Maybole, Scotland) here in New Zealand; a trip that was worth a thousand pictures.

Meanwhile I have taken the plunge and am making a first pair on the homemade lasts to a pattern and style that uses published suggestions from various sources about heavy work boot making. I have questions.

Some (but not all) of the hill boots I have seen are made flesh side on the outer, grain side to the foot. Rural legend, among wearers of these boots is that this arrangement is more waterproof than the other, with the probably very important point that such boots are oiled or greased and otherwise fed by their owners at regular intervals. And on top of all this goop they can take a polish, for formal outings.

In bootmakers terms what are the merits of flesh side out, if any? Frank Jones (I think it was) mentioned a suitable first leather dressing recipe for flesh side out, but I havent been able to locate it. Can anyone recall it?

regards Dai
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