Seeking knowledge or survey

[gaid]

D.W.
I don't want to talk about any particular boot or shoe, it all depends on the context. All I'm saying is the fact that a 5,5mm counter in the end will be totally 4mm thicker then a 3,5mm ditto. And that will in my opinion give the whole boot or shoe a less dressy look. The way to achieve the same strenght on a light weight counter is by using Hirchkleber or similar stuff.

A couple of years ago I ordered my dressage boots uppers with handstitched tongue and sides from London. The counter was about 5mm, skived very well at the top and sides. But at the bottom they where full, no skiving at all. Also, they where sewed into the side seam so I could not take them out and skive them at the bottom. The reason for this is that a riding boot is supposed to be very heavy at the heel seat. Of course, they where tricky to last but in the end the heel seat came up smooth. Having said that, I don't think this is about skiving skill or tecniques either because a light weight counter still will look more like the origin last in the end then the heavier ditto. I hope we could at least agree about that.

Finally, I did not intend to criticize the way you are making your boots, or the thichness of your counters. I just wanted to talk about the use of Hirchkleber and what I think is the advantage by using it.

Janne Melkersson

[dw]

Janne,

I don't know whether this is an interesting conversation to you or not so I'll not take it too much further, but....

I understand that you were not criticizing me (at least, I hope I do). My remark was just a clumsy way of saying that I respect your opinion in this regard....I'm just not sure I agree with it entirely.

When I first started making boots, I heard the story of "the Pope's slippers." This is where the apprentice, in order to make journeyman, has to make a pair of slippers for the Pope that are lighter in weight than the pair that his master has made. Now the Pope never walks outside. Never treads on dirt, or rock. Never runs, never sweats. Never gets off the carpeting. The Pope's slippers must be so lightweight that they actually lift him a little off the ground.

It's a funny story, a little archetypal, and seemingly representative of Italian if not European shoemakers.

But, of course, the point is that shoes are intended to be an interface between the environment and the wearer. That's the raison d'etre. There has to be a certain utility about them. As a maker I have always pursued "refinement." But, in my opinion, for every step you take toward refinement through material choice, you risk a step backward in utility. In usability. Like the Pope's slippers.

For me skill trumps all. If it did not, we could very well use celastic for heel stiffeners (some manufacturers do) and get both a modicum of utility and a wealth of "refinement." Maybe I'm a snob or just bull-headed but that's not a path I want to slide on.


Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[jonathon]

I am presuming that Hirchkleber and Dextrin are somewhat similar. I have stated before that Dextrin is what I use on stiffners and toe puffs, and it also helps to harden the leather when dry.
I have also used it when gluing in sock liners and have never found it to go powdery. (even in Sth Aust. very hot/dry climate) I recall Tex stating once that he was not a fan. He thought it antiquated and messy to use. I disagree. It may be an old technique but being water based there are no dangerous fumes, and any mess can easily be wiped away with a damp cloth.It also alows some "slippage" between stiffners and uppers during lasting. This can be of great advantage, especially to beginners.

Cheers.
Jon.

[dw]

Jonathon,

Well, now you and Janne have got me intrigued enough to give it another try. I will admit that I have not seen any boots come back where I had used HirschKleber for insole liners. But I did glue up some scraps with it and when it dried it was brittle and cracked. This put me in mind of many boots that I have taken apart over the years (when I used to do repair) that had a similar substance in between the insole and the outsole that had cracked severely and all but turned to dust.

I know that "similar" is not identical but the initial cracking I saw did not do much for my confidence in the product.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[cmw]

Janne

I figure the you of you are tired of beating this subject. I'll keep it short. Is hirchkleber what we call "Kapperklister"? The Kapperklister og trælim is what I've used and seen used on the tåkappe sidekapper og hælekappe.

CW

[gaid]

CW
Yes, I think it is about the same as the "Kapperklister". I have never used "trälim" (wood glue) on shoes before, interesting! I will give it a try sometime.
Janne Melkersson

[cmw]

Janne

The first time I saw it used was a shock.
It was the first time we made a shoe in school.
We also used woodglue at the wk-end courses I've been to. Note it is almost always on the Tåkappe
( the factory made ones with glue on one side)

A Semi-cold Texan
CW

[Eisele's Custom Boots]

I was looking to sole a pair of boots a couple of weeks ago, and decided to attempt the method that Tex uses. I now use the method with all soles. Very quick and seems to hold just as well as casing fo a couple of hours.
Thanks for the tip.
Kevin

[gcunning]

Kevin
Are you talking about using Masters and one coat on the sole?

Tex, How many coats do you use between your shank and shank cover? I was taught 2 to make sure it is covered well.

[Tex Robin]

Gary,
It depends entirely on how thick your all-purpose is. Sometimes when you first open a can it is on the thin side , then you might need two coats. But normally one coat of all-purpose on anything is sufficient for me. If you are using thinner cement, you may need two. It's just common sense ,not something that should be taught as the only way....TR

[dw]

Kevin, Tex,...

First let me say that I am not challenging anyone's methods here. I have no problem with the way Tex handles outsoles, for example. But since there was an implication of excess in the response to my suggestion that outsoles be soaked for hours (versus minutes) I think it only right that I explain.

I soak my outsoles until they are wet, or all but wet, all the way through. Whether it be three hours or 20 minutes has more to do with the quality of the leather than the time frame. I don't sit around with a timer. I throw the soles in the water and go about my other chores, checking in when I think about it.

Done this way, the outsoles are thoroughly wet and pliable when I pull them out of the water. Aside from the fact that I was taught this method, if I then "mull" (or "temper) my outsoles, when I attach them to the bottom of the boot they will conform to every curve, crease, and valley. Sometimes I see boots made that have gaps between the insole and the outsole...especially where the welt is ended under the medial ball. While this can be overcome by careful work, it is much easier to eliminate all such hazards if the sole is pliable. Some of the Rendenbach is rock hard and it would be very difficult to make the sole conform to the shank--in particular, that high, rolled shank, that is so characteristic of the western boot--without it being tempered.

I also find that tempered (not wet) outsole leather pegs easier and holds the pegs better than a dry outsole.

Of course we have to apply a coat of cement to the flesh side of the outsoles first, if we are going to wet the soles. In my experience, all-purpose will not adhere to wet leather.

The upshot of all of this is that it takes more time to thoroughly wet and temper an outsole than to simply breathe heavy on them and call it good. But I'm not standing around waiting for "water to boil." I keep busy. So it doesn't make any difference how long it takes. For me the results are worth it.

Both methods work just fine, especially in the hands of a skilled maker. It just depends on what you want...and maybe the quality of the outsoles.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[Tex Robin]

DW,
I wouldn't call soaking soles till they are waterlogged or not a method. The important thing is to be able to soften your soles so that they conform to the shape of the boot and I agree with that. But what I don't see is why you would need to soak a pair of soles for three hours. Three to five minutes and then a wrap in a plastic bag and they can be tied in a knot if you think that would be necessary. You can argue just about any point you want to on this forum but it is what is done in the shop with the time and skill that is important. And the end product tells the whole story....TR

[Eisele's Custom Boots]

I don't disagree with anybodys methods of doing things if it works for them. I used to soak my soles for 2-3 hours after first applying a coat of cement and drying. I don't imagine from my experience with the German sole that it would work for them, but I use American leather most of the time, and the method makes the sole pliable enough to conform to every ridge on the boot.
Gary, I used just one good heavy coat of Jet Set cement.
I will admit,I was apprehensive when I first tried the method, but it did work for me.
Kevin

[dw]

Tex,

Don't make an argument where there is none. The forum is about discussion...the comparison of ideas and methods...point counterpoint.

As for why I need to soak for longer than 5 minutes...the answer is contained in my original post. I want the leather to be *pliable*. As pliable as I can get it. It is not pliable when it is dry. If it is still dry in the center, it is not pliable, in my opinion.

Set a leather sole in clear water and watch the bubbles come streaming off of it. As long as bubbles are coming out of the leather that means that air is being displaced by water, dry is being replaced by wet. The center...where you can't see it...is still dry.

If an outsole is not pliable when it's dry, it's not significantly *more* pliable when it's still dry in the center. If it's pliable enough for you when it's only partially wet, then it's probably not significantly *less* pliable when it's completly dry. Which then begs the question: "why wet them at all?"

I have never seen the leather that I use stop bubbling in five minutes...or twenty minutes for that matter. And since I put all-purpose on the flesh side, I can also tell that the leather is not completely wet by the fact that the leather under the glue doesn't change color until it *is* wet. I want my soles wet all the way through...as I said in my original post. In my opinion, that's the only way that they will temper up completely and correctly. Maybe my water is too hard. Maybe the leather I use is too dense. Who knows? But that's the way I see it.

Beyond that, I agree with you that it's the results (the "end product&#34 that counts. Bootmaking is not a "time trial." I don't do things the way I do them so that I can brag about how *slow* I am. I do things the way I do them so that I can, in my own mind at least, know that I did them the best I could.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[bultsad]

Speaking of the german outsoles, I have had two pair from two different customers come back cracked through at the flex point on the ball. Both soles had only worn to about half their life. Has anyone else run into this problem? I can only imagine that the leather is just too hard in some cases. I have put this leather on bunch of boots and only are aware of the two cases of cracking. Perhaps I will find more as time goes on.
As for the sole wetting, I soak for around 20 minutes in the afternoon, and then throw the soles rough side up on a peice of carpet overnight. I pick them up in the morning and they are usually just about the right temper to glue and apply. Then after I sew and peg, I spray the sole with water and use a rub stick to smooth everything and close the channel.

[Tex Robin]

DW,

Explain to me exactly what you are meaning by tempering your outsoles....TR

[dw]

Tex,

Well, thank you for that.

Tempering is a process in which the leather is wet thoroughly and then allowed to dry back to a certain moisture content where the leather is pliable and moldable ...and to where it will take a 'set." Not a very good definition, I'm afraid, but better than that, I can give you some working examples...

Have you ever tooled any leather? If so, you know that when the leather is at a proper temper, it can be cut and compressed and it will hold that shape and compression...for years and years. But you can't just spray the surface and expect top notch results.

Or try this...take the loosest, softest, most jelly-like piece of soling leather scrap you can find and throw it in the tub. Let it soak for 20 minutes to an hour. Now pull it out and let it dry until the color is just back to "dry-looking." Now hammer the leather on an anvil...If the moisture content is just right, the leather will compress to about half or even less of its original thickness and when the piece finally dries out completely, it will be hard as a rock and still that thin. Once upon a time all bottom leather was actually put through a process just like that by the shoemaker himself. All heel lifts were tempered and "hammer jacked." All soles were either hammer jacked or, later, put through a device similar to a tug roller. Dry leather will not hold the shape or take a set, or compress even if you hit it with a sledgehammer. Even today modern soling leather differs from saddle leather primarily in that the soling leather has been rolled. The leather manufacturers rely on the leather being tempered to do this.

When we put a well tempered outsole on a boot, it conforms to every contour of the bottom. And as we hammer it, it takes a "set" and even some additional hardness. If you let that sole dry completely and then take it off the boot, it will *be* the shape of the bottom of the boot and it will stay that way literally forever. If you do that with a dry outsole, it will try to spring back to flat. There's a tension there that works against a tight boot, in my experience.

When we peg into tempered leather, we can finish up by hammering the leather tight around the peg...and it will both tighten and harden. It won't do that on dry leather.

One of the central concepts is an even distribution of moisture. Now I often wrap my outsoles in newsprint to let them "mull" overnight. This allows some of the moisture to evaporate but holds some of it in. In the morning the soles are evenly "tempered." Maybe not enough but *evenly.* But again, this nearly has to happen from the inside out. Moisture wicks out to air far more readily than inward to a dry core.

Working with full wellingtons, I have a pretty deep appreciation for the concept. I work with fully wet leather but many makers prefer the leather to have mulled overnight. In either case, the leather goes through a stage where it is fully and evenly wet and, as a result, the placement and density of the fibers that make up the leather shift around--the leather conforms and stretches and ultimately takes a "set." We could not make a full wellington if the leather didn't pass through a stage where it would take and hold a shape. And that applies to chrome as well as veg leathers. Leather has a memory and only tempering it will change that memory.

Sorry this is so long. I've taken "tempering" for granted for most of my career (having started out making saddles and then seeing the same concept employed by my bootmaking teacher) and I've never really been called upon to articulate it before. I hope it makes sense, at least.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[dw]

Jim,

I've not seen the cracking on the German soles but I wouldn't be surprised. Especially in the case of people who wear the boots in acidic environments or where they are in gasoline etc.. No real definitive reason for saying that...just a hunch based on seeing the damage some chemicals can produce.

I have some Baker's outsoling and I like it much better than the Rendenbach. I'm hoarding it, to tell the truth. But the Baker is pure oak and the Rendenbach is acorn caps. It does make a harder, more brittle feeling leather. Of course, the Rendenbach is easier to come by. Second best always is...

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[Tex Robin]

DW,
I understand now what you are talking about with the tempering. I have tooled belt leather and also saddle skirting. I have tooled for as long as I have made boots. T

The method I use for getting my sole leather ready is called casing and is done in a little different way. This is why I don't soak my soles till they swell up to twice their size or turn into a dishrag. I soak my sole leather for about 2 or three minutes and by the way, the bubbles disappear in that time. Then I put the soles in a plastic bag and throw them in my casebox. The moisture softens the leather much the same as you describe. Or in the summertime, if you want to keep them cased you can put them in a freezer. This prevents molding. Sometimes I don't even put them in the casebox. Sometimes I just leave them out, but I never soak them for any long period of time.

Sometimes when I am in a hurry(my time is valuable) I fold them in newspapers as you described. You can put them in the sun and it does an hurry up job of casing. I am not concerned with tempering the leather, only raising the moisture content of the leather to make it pliable and easier to cut with the lipknife. I have never heard you talk about his method and have always wondered why. I don't think I have ever heard the word casing used on the forum...TR

[dw]

Tex,

Mike Ives had an old Coca-Cola cooler that he "cased" his soles and heel lifts in. [ Now that you mention it, I have heard the word "case" used in this context before. In fact, now I'm not sure where I picked up "mulling" and "tempering" ] But he soaked his leather for quite a long time, as I recall and my saddle teacher--Col. Frank Finch--made sure his leather was well wet, too.

Honestly, I've never seen leather that stopped bubbling after only a few minutes and if it turned into a "dishrag' with more than three or four minutes in the water...man alive, I'd be real reluctant to use it. If I put my leather soles in the water (slightly warm water) in the morning, sometimes by noon they'll still have a small dry area in the middle. Sometimes the German leather will turn the water dark brown and I don't like to let them soak that long. The German leather actually takes up moisture faster than the domestic stock. But neither of them get real floppy or soft (don't realy lose much in the way of apparant stiffness--pliable, yes; floppy, no) nor do either of them swell up much over an iron or two.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[Tex Robin]

DW,

Like I have said before, there are things that can't be taught by talking about them.

Today I took a pair of the German soles that I so far don't care for at all and put them in a bucket of our Texas tap water(as hard as it gets) and after 3 minutes the bubbling had stopped. I took them out and examined them and they were plyable enough to put into any boot shank in the world. Then I put Them back into the water and let them soak for the full 3 hrs. After only about an hour the 10 iron leather had swollen up to about 15 or 16 iron. So far they have not returned to their original thickness. I have left them out for the night

I know exactly what you are talking about with the tempering and hammering or beating sole leather out flatter. My Father used to do it but he could never tell me why he did it. So he finally quit the practice. I prefer the flexible prime fullsoles and I prefer the ones made in USA. They have proved themselves for over 40 yrs and I have not seen any difference in the longevity of the soles made then and now. It seems that in the old days we did more re-soling than now.

I will admit that the part about the soles being like a dish rag was a little exagerated but used only to describe oversoaking.

In my plastic water bucket with Texas hard water 2 to 3 mins is max for making my soles soft enough to use.

Ok, now for the business of cementing the soles before they are soaked. I have done them that way too. And I agree that you can't take a pair of soles right out of the water and expect all-purpose to adhere to them. But, after they have cased or layed out for a while they will and I guarantee you will need solvent to remove them from the boot to re-sole. and this is without using a coat of cement before soaking them. This is probably one reason why I only need 2 or 3 mins in the water bucket....TR

[cmw]

About the german leather

We use almost always german, geographicly smart, we are in Denmark. There are alot of different qualities as you all know. We order a certain one when we get the chance. We only get it once or twice a year so we buy alot. It is called "baveria Kilger Rein Pflanzliche Grubengerbuag". It it ca 4/4.5 mm. it lasts much longer than the "Rocca"


By the way Tex, My boss said he has used your method with the bag many a time with good results.

Why glue after and not before you soak the leather? I did it that way last time i was in school, It worked fine.

CW

[gcunning]

Tex and DW the reason you two may be so far apart on soaking time may have more to do with region than time. As Tex alluded to type of water used might account for some of the difference. Temperature, atmospheric pressure could account for a great difference. Humidity may be a cause in the difference allowing for moisture already in the leather.

[dw]

Tex,

Well, you've given me something to think about. Coming from anyone else, I wouldn't have believed that you could rely upon the cement if it was applied after the sole had been wet. And you are probably correct in that cementing before the sole is wet, prevents it from absorbing the water as fast as an uncemented sole.

But, even though I know that it is possible to completely wet a sole in considerably less time than three hours...I alluded to that very thing in a previous post--it's just scheduling...I'll probably never be comfortable soaking my soles for less than 20 minutes to an hour. I believe tempering has to go from the inside out.

Thanks again for pursuing this. I learned something and anyone else who was "lurking" and didn't really know what to think, now has something to chew on.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[dw]

Chris,

Rocca? As far as i know, the only German leather we get here in the States is the Rendenbach. Although I have seen the Kilgore in the Goetz catalog, I think.

Gary,

Very likely you are correct. We are in high desert here and it is pretty dry. When I was in Brownwood several years back I was struck by the humidity. We are also at a higher elevation here in my part of the country and that would lower the air pressure and, theoretically, inhibit water take up.

That said, the first rush of bubbles that come off a sole is not the last of them. Once the water fully infuses the surface of the leather it creates a "membrane" that slows down further penetration....and further bubbling. When you think the leather has stopped absorbing water just gently bend it a bit while it's still in the water and watch the bubbles come streaming off again.


Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC