Seeking knowledge or survey

[amuckart]

Al, DW, David,

Thank you all for the pictures.

David, is that one from Saddlery and Harness-making?

[dai]

Alasdair,

The picture and text of the hand leather are from Hasluck, Bootmaking and Mending, 1912 edn. By the way, another bootmaking text edited by Hasluck is "Boot and Shoe Pattern Cutting and Clicking", 1906 (and perhaps other editions).

[romango]

Hmmm... that's about as clear as mud. Is this two pieces of leather joined at IJ? If not, what is the function of the lacing at IJ?

[dai]

"the leather is folded at the dotted lines, BC, and FE, and the ends are laced together at IJ"

Rick, print out and cut a paper pattern from fig 63. Fold at BC and FE. Now stop and look at the thing, noting that the lace holes have moved to around IJ.

[romango]

Ahh.. got it. Thanks for the clarification.

[luckyduck]

Welcome Wende,

What sort of shoes are you thinking of making to start with? It may help some of the more experience people here to point you in a direction. Everyone here has really helped me out and I do not make "normal" shoes.

Depending on what you are looking for there are different videos and some books that may be helpful.

You definitely picked the spot for learning.

Paul

[shoestring]

Welcome aboard Wende,

You have come to the right drug store for your perscription.I have been getting a refill quite regular,help is all around .And good luck on your new undertaking.

Ed

[artzend]

Wende,

Before you have a go at things by yourself, see if there is somewhere near you where you can be shown the basics. Shoe and bootmaking are fairly straightforward, but learning to use the tools etc is easier if someone can show you the basics first time around.

Having said that, of course you can just put your head down and go for it.

Tim

[lancepryor]

I would also suggest you buy the book "Handmade Shoes for Men" by Vass and Molnar. You should be able to find a copy for around $10, and it gives a good introduction to the various parts of a shoe as well as the materials, supplies, and processes involved. It won't teach you all the ins and outs of actually making a shoe, but it will give you some understanding before you start reading the posts on this site, which generally require some understanding of the basic processes, terms, and so forth that are discussed here.

[mrs_hill]

Mr. Oppermann or others,
I am thinking that something easy and simple to start would be in order. I am interested in "normal" shoes I found this place through the Simple Shoemaking website and followed a few links. I saw a few shoes along the way that were stitched on the outside and they seemed easy to start with. By the way what does "Bespoke Shoemaking" mean?

[dw]

Wende,

Mirriam Webster's Collegiate Dictionary Tenth Edition defines "bespeak" as

1: to hire,engage or claim beforehand

The same dictionary defines "bespoke" as

1 a: custom-made b: dealing in or producing custom-made articles

And Salaman's Dictionary of Leather-Working Tools c. 1700-1950 defines "bespoke work" thusly:

Bespoke Work (bespeak; bespoken)
In the boot and shoe trade the word 'bespoke' has come to mean more than 'ordered'. The term is used to describe the making of boots and shoes to the requirements of a particular person. This includes taking measurements and making a last for each customer. A 'bespoke shoemaker' is now one who only makes to order.

I might add that the word 'bespoke" is also used in the same way and in the same context among first class tailors.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[jesselee]

DW

Again, to terms: 'Bespoke'. I believe it is a very old term going back many centuries. Broken down it is 'be'-'spoke', to 'tell' or 'describe' what is desired to be made.

yes us 'old guys'know this. Just a lot of enjoyment explaining to the new folk.

Jesse

[jesselee]

Wende

I have a private press book which teaches all the basics such as stitching, lasting, pegging, last re-making etc. It is long out of print, but i could work up a copy for you. Lots of Civil War boot and shoe makers use it, including some famous ones. Myself and a few old school bootmakers wrote it years ago.
JesseLee

[lancepryor]

Wende:

To add to what DW wrote re: bespoke. This is a term much more commonly used by the British than by Americans, who tend to use the term 'custom made.' Further, many of the British 'bespoke' shoemakers actually use the term 'made to measure,' e.g. the famous John Lobb who call themselves "Makers of the finest hand made to measure shoes and boots," while G J Cleverley call their shoes "bespoke made to measure shoes." In my travels, the term is much more commonly used by the tailors, as DW mentioned above, because true Bespoke suits differ from "made to measure" suits, so the distinction is important, whereas generally with shoes there are either Ready to Wear or Bespoke/custom made.

Also, in the USA, most custom-made footwear is boots, made by folks like those who participate here. There are many fewer custom shoemakers. Most (virtually all) of the US custom makers use existing lasts, which they modify to conform to the needs of the customer. This is because lastmaking is a specialty unto itself. The bespoke shoemakers in the UK and Europe generally have a large enough volume of business to employ lastmakers, as well as a centuries old tradition of apprenticeship/training to maintain this skill, so they continue to make lasts from scratch.

[lancepryor]

My understanding is that the term bespoke derives from the tailoring trade, wherein a length of cloth was "bespoken," i.e. spoken for or reserved, by a customer. This cloth was then used in the production of the customer's garment.

Another view, perhaps more in line with Jesse Lee's version, is that "bespoke" is the past participle of the verb "bespeak," which means "to arrange" or "to order," although the latter definition could also be said to validate the definition I gave above.

(Message edited by lancepryor on May 27, 2007)

[dw]

Lance,

This is from the OED--maybe the definitive source, can we stipulate?

It would seem that according to the etymology "bespoke" is used to refer to the shoe trade as early as 1688 (if I'm reading this correctly). And to the tailoring Trade only as early as 1908.

BESPOKE(N) ppl. a. 2; spec. of goods; ordered to be made, as distinguished from READY-MADE; also said of a tradesman who makes goods to order. Also n., a bespoke article.

1755 MRS. C. CHARKE Life 203 At length the bespoke Play was to be enacted. 1866 Chambers's Encycl. VIII. 691/1 The shoemaking trade..is divided into two departments the bespoke and the ready-made or sale business. 1884 Birmingh. Daily Post 24 Jan. 3/3 Boot Trade. Wanted..Saleswoman, accustomed to Bespoke Trade. 1907 W. DE MORGAN Alice-for-Short xlvii, His boots may have been ‘bespokes’ for anybody, except himself. 1908 Daily Chron. 13 June 4/7 A ‘bespoke tailor’. 1928 Punch 30 May p. xv (Advt.), Lotus Bespoke Model Shoes. 1965 Ibid. 29 Sept. 478/1 A ‘Special Collection’ which is, in harsh reality, a collection of bargain bespokes. 1966 Economist 16 July 239/2 Although there is a lot of bespoke work in this [steel] plant, management would prefer some element of payment by results.

BESPEAK
5. To speak for; to arrange for, engage beforehand; to ‘order’ (goods).

1583 STANYHURST Aeneis II. (Arb.) 68 Theare doe lye great kingdooms..bespoken For the. 1602 Return fr. Parnass. III. v. (Arb.) 46 A lodging bespoken for him..in Newgate. 1688 in Ellis Orig. Lett. II. 367. IV. 143 The six thousand pair of Shoes which he bispoke at Exeter. 1709 STEELE Tatler No. 16 page 2 She bespoke the Play of Alexander the Great, to be acted by the Company of Strollers. 1712 ARBUTHNOT John Bull (1755) 2 His tradesmen..waited upon him to ..bespeak his custom. 1793 SMEATON Edystone L. §255 A new set of chains was bespoke. 1839 DE QUINCEY Murder Wks. IV. 43 You may have..bespoken a murder.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

(Message edited by dw on May 27, 2007)

[dw]

Lance,

I edited my last post..."made to measure" was inappropriate for the citation.

But despite the addition of the OED stuff( I don't know why I included it--just curiousity, I guess), I honestly don't think we need to go much beyond Salaman, if the truth be told. It is Trade specific, after all.

Just my opinion...your mileage may vary.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[lancepryor]

DW:

Well, you learn something new every day....



I read things a bit differently than you, in that the 1688 usage of 'bespeak' seems to be a synonym to 'ordered,' which would not render it unique to the shoemaking trade.

However, IF the OED lists the examples as the first known application of that usage, even then you've got me, since the 1866 Chambers encyclopedia predates the usage relating to tailoring. I don't know how exactly the OED gives the etymology, so whether earlier usage of the term Bespoke relative to tailoring exists I do not know.

re: Salaman. I certainly agree with his definition, but note that he does not provide the etymology, which is what we are discussing. Given that his book is about the leather-working trades, including shoes but not tailored clothing, I would not expect him to discuss the usage of the term as it relates to tailoring. His definition does not preclude the possibility that the term was previously used regarding tailored clothing.

However, in thinking through things, the development of factory-made/RTW shoes does (I believe) predate that of factory made suits. Until something is made in a factory, there is no need to distinguish bespoke from RTW, since everything is bespoke. Along this line of thinking, the term would likely have been used first for shoes rather than for tailored clothing.

Anyway, it's of interest but no great importance.

Lance

[dw]

Lance,

Anyway, it's of interest but no great importance.

That's the way I feel about it as well, although I do think the term "bespoke" carries more meaning than "made to measure" or "custom -made".

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[mrs_hill]

I need three things.
1. I would like to begin looking for lasts and of course I need to get them as cheap as possible and I heard that eBay was the place to get them. If so what should an amature look for?

2. What is a good mail order catalog(s), wholesale prices prefered, that I can order soles, buckles and other products from?

3. Also unfortunatly, My husband and I are disconecting our internet service soon and I was wondering if anyone was willing to pass on a telephone number somehow if possible that I may have someone to ask questions to as I continue without this valuable place here.

Thank you all for your help so far.

[relferink]

Wende,

1. Ebay is not a bad place to look, specially if your on a budget. It may take some time for the right size and style of last to pup op but if your in no particular hurry. You may consider investing in a good pair of lasts for yourself to practice on, that way you not only get to make the shoes but actually feel how they fit and wear. Global Footwear Solutions would be a good place to get a single pair of lasts, stock or custom to your fit but you will probably pay more than something you find used on E-bay. Give Bill a call, he's a really helpful fellow and can give you some great advice on lasts.

2. Not to many places for materials that have catalogs out, a few have web sites and most of those have been linked through in archived discussions, a search will bring them up. My advice would be to get in touch with a local shoe repair and find out from them if there is a local finder that carries most of the thing you will need such as soling. If they allow you to visit them you can get a really good idea of what's available.

3. You may want to re-consider giving up the internet since it's the means by which this forum exists. It's hard enough to answer questions and explain things with the help of pictures and video that we have here, over the phone it would be nearly impossible. If you are looking for one on one tutoring you should consider a shoemaking course to get you started. There are a few available throughout the country ranging from a few days to a few weeks. Unlike myself some of the people participating on the colloquy teach and can probably tell you more about what's available, just ask.

Rob

[romango]

Check out these guys too: Walrus

[mrs_hill]

Lasts -- do I want plastic or wood? How do I pick them? I am going to need them for my self, family and friends. How do I know what they need without investing a fortune? also what does "series" mean?

Boy, I hope you guys don't mind me asking a bunch of novice questions.

[artzend]

Wende,

When you look for lasts you will probably find more plastic than wooden offered now, as plastic has taken over from wood because of cost factors. There is no real difference for you except the plastic ones are slightly heavier than wood.

The main things to consider are heel heights. For average shoes, you probably want to go for something in the 3/4" - 1" range. This comes down to personal preference, and also what is on offer at the time.

Toe shapes will vary, so depending on who you are getting them for, a rounded, or almond toe is pretty universal. You are going to find that men's and ladies ranges of lasts are different. Men have wider feet on average and their lasts reflect this, so that is going to influence your choices.

I would assume that series is the same as what I know as a range of lasts and that is all the sizes and possibly half sizes with the same toe shapes, and heel heights all marked with the same numbers on the side. The numbers (not size numbers) are to denote styles, as made by the manufacturer.

Larry at Walrus may be a useful place to start.

Tim

[mrs_hill]

Can I somehow make my own last cheaply?