I have been asked to make a pair of full wellington boots which would be my first pair for a customer. What I would like to know is, do you charge more for making a full wellington boot than a dress wellington boot? I am not sure how to charge the customer. I think you would charge more because of the skill level and knowledge needed in making the full wellington boots, but will the customer see or understand the price difference. Any ideas or suggestions?

RNB

RNB,

Pricing is a very subjective thing, and you're not necessarily going to make a profit on your very first, experimental pair, of any new style, but IMO you should aim at not having a loss either. One factor to weigh heavily, as well, is that whole-cut wellingtons will never cut as economically as a 4-piece boot, because the pieces are larger, all one skin, and the fronts, especially, are an ungainly shape to layout correctly--will you bear the cost of this extravagance, or pass it along to your customer? By rights whole-cuts ought to cost more, but how much more is up to you. On the one hand your results, first time out, might not be as refined-looking or satisfactory as the 4-piece dress wellingtons, made of several different leathers in smaller pieces that you're used to making, yet you don't want to loose money on the job either. The customer is "paying" for the leather, right? A $7 per square foot leather is costing the customer $14, factored into the price of the boot? You'll save some time on not having so much sewing to do, fitting tongues, counters [counter-covers], etc., but unless your crimping goes perfectly first try, you might loose what time you've gained. If your fronts rip or tear while crimping, the cost of materials will increase, too, when you have to that second pair. Just cover your butt, and take it slow. Like everything else, after maybe 20 pairs of these you should have it down to a science. Good luck.

I may be the only one on the forum that regularly makes both dress wellingtons and full wellingtons. Right now I have five pair of boots going--three pairs of full wellingtons and two pairs of dress wellingtons. the next batch of orders is just about the same and the previous batch was similar. So...lately, at least, I'm doing roughly half dress wellingtons and half full wellingtons.

Al's comments are about as wise and accurate as you're gonna get. I charge $100.00 extra in my base price for full cuts relative to dress cuts. And it should be more. Not only that, if you do any extensive ornamentation, such as inlay or stitch work, you ought to charge more for doing that on full wellingtons than you charge for the same job on dress wellingtons. It's significantly harder to stitch an elaborate stitch pattern on a FW than it is on a regular boot...especially on the fronts.

What's more, charging the extra price is the only way to make up for the lost time and materials involved in getting your techniques and skills up to snuff to do this style of boot. Chalk it up as R&D...we all do it, we all *need* to do it...but at some point you're lose some money doing it

Having said all that, There are some benefits to doing the full wellington. Once they are crimped, the boot seems to go together much more quickly than a dress wellington...at least the plain ones do. Making full wellingtons in the style, and to the standards, of modern day boots will teach you a heck of a lot about patterns, and fitting the last, and about leathers. It's not too hard to get a front crimped once you've got the patterns right and you choose an appropriate leather (*not* soft and stretchy, either). But getting the patterns right so that the boot sets on the last correctly, breaking at the proper place on the last, and so that it finishes lasting up correctly with no bridging, or gaping, or forward or backward lean, is just as much a problem as with dress wellingtons but harder to control...and much more critical. It is possible to make a dress wellington that sits on the last fine, cups the heel and the sides of the last perfectly, and still leans forward or even back. But it is much more difficult with a full cut. If the boot leans forward or back, or doesn't sit on the cone of the last just right, it is usually indicative of other, more consequential problems as well.

I've struggled, off and on, with the full wellingtons for the last 20 years. I got serious about it about 7 or 8 years ago and have it pretty well in hand now, I think...knock on wood. There's no more elegant or challenging boot style that I know of.

Good luck!

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

DW-

Can you make a specific recommendation on a leather to use for the first pair of full cuts? Something that crimps well seems of the greatest importance. And not terribly expensive in case they tear. Thanks,

Matt

Matt,

I guess I'd try Garlin's burnishable buffalo for a first pair. It crimps up nicely and is not expensive. It's about 4 ounce. I had excellent results with GH Leather's "french" calf, as well, but it is spendy. But it crimped up as nicely as anything I've ever used....veg or chrome. As for lining, well I'm using a pure veg from Corral/Ebinger--the Corral 1099 soft veg. It crimps up beautifully, is about 3 ounce, and isn't all that expensive. When crimped or simply toggled it's a passable substitute for lining kip. So you can use it for top lining very nicely if not for full cuts.


Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

All messages posted prior to 25 February 2002 have been moved to the first Crispin Colloquy CD Archive. Those interested in obtaining a copy of this CD need to contact admin@thehcc.org

Admin--06 May 2002

All,
I met a lady on sunday who was wearing a very nice pair of cognac(?) ostrich boots. The stitching was a little different, the makers initials(T S or S T)were part of the pattern stitched on the tops. The owner said she bought them about 10 years ago. Anyone have an idea who the maker is? Could it be you Tex? I am just curious, she said the maker was from Texas but didn't remember his name.
Frank

Frank,

Those boots were made by T O Stanley of El Paso. His company puts out great boots, similar to the Lucchese boots when Sam Lucchese was alive.

Mark

Mark,
Thank you for the information. Does the company still exist?
Frank

Frank,

Yes, I talked to Mr. Stanley about a month ago. Phone number 915-533-3276, 4610 Durazno, El Paso, TX 79905.

His boots are being sold by Cavenders and Nordstroms in the Dallas area.

Mark

Mark,
Thanks again. I assume you are a boot maker(?)if so where are you from and for how long?
Frank

Frank,

Not a maker, I collect and read about cowboy boots. I also enjoy wearing great custom made boots.

Mark

My husband bought me a huge vac system for my shop. He sells body shop supplies and he picked it up very cheaply from one of his customers. It's the size of the vacuums at car washes, so it's plenty big enough to handle my shop. He sat it on my back loading dock and ran 4" pipe up across the ceiling and over and down to my finisher. It works great and I love it. However...I had a guy in here Saturday who has a woodshop. He was admiring my vac, and he asked me if it was grounded. I had no clue what he was talking about, so he explained. He said wood shavings and sawdust will build up static electricity as they pass through the pipe and catch on fire, so you have to run a copper wire all the way through the pipe to ground it. Now I'm worried about my vacuum and my new shop. Does leather dust do the same thing? Does anyone know?

Lisa

Lisa
Yes Leather dust will catch fire .It doesn't take much .It would be worth taking off one end and using a electricians fish tape to pull a wire through just to be safe ,you can do that easily. We had a problem with that sort of thing about 6 years ago. Any time you have along run of pipe and it is not grounded it can be a problem .Some people use plastic pipe to run there duct work and it works great but the static problem is multiplied and you must ground it .metal pipe is much easier to ground.
Good fishing
Larry

Lisa
Larry is so right.
Remember even Lighting is static and static is looking for the quickest way to ground
just like lightning. Don't underestimate it.

Lisa,
I can see where there would be a problem with the static electricity. A few years ago my machine needed a pad on the aluminum pulley. I didn't have any felt so I used Rubber. A bad mistake. Every time I used it I would get shocks every few seconds or when I turned it off. I found the rubber was insulating the alum wheel from being grounded and the sanding was building up the electricity. When I started using cork for the wheel covering it stopped. There is definitely some static electricity that needs to be grounded....TR

Guys,
Thanks so much for all your help. I've given your advice to Dale. He just didn't think about the static problem, but he assures me he'll fix it. He has explained the concept of grounding things to me SEVERAL times with no success, so I'll have to let him take care of it.

Lisa

Lisa,

I am wondering how you are using the shop vac? Is is being used in place of a blower? Most of the old finishers don't have adequate suction with the blowers and I am sure we get a lot of allergies from the dust. I have been fighting an infection for several weeks that could have been caused by leather dust. It is a big problem in a boot shop...TR

Tex,
Obviously if you want technichal details I'll have to put Dale on here, but I'll do the best I can. Yes, I'm using the vacuum in place of the blower. The vacuum sits on my back loading dock. Dale ran 4" PVC pipe from the vacuum, across the ceiling and down to my finisher. He put the PVC pipe down the hole where the dust bags went and sealed it off. The vacuum sucks MOST of the dust when I sand. If I'm doing something with a really high volume of dust like shaping a heel, I'll end up with some dust on the finisher and on the floor. But it's not bad. The best part is that the vac seems to pull it down. If it doesn't get sucked into the vacuum it falls directly to the floor. It doesn't seem to float around so I can breathe it. He also ran a couple of pipes down above my work benches for fumes. They just have a cap on the end. If I'm glueing or using Bondo I can turn on the vac to suck out the fumes.

I know what you mean about infections. My blower went out in my old finisher once, and I got an infection in my nose from the leather dust. The stuff's not good for breathing!

Lisa

Tex,
I use a big dust collecter that I bought from Wood Tek in Casper Wy. It was designed to use in a wood shop. I ducted it into my jackmaster in place of the bag. It has great suction but is very noisy. I suspect that is why Lisa's husband put hers on the loading dock. I have a basement so I cut a hole in the floor and put the machine down stairs. I also installed an air exchanger that changes the air in that boot shop every few minutes. It is made to recover about 80 percent of the ambient air temprature inside the building. That thing cost about 1500.00 installed but is worth every penny.Everybody has a lot less health problems since the install. This all came about because my father-in-law who has built and repaired boots for thirty plus years came down with emphesema a few years ago. He is now on oxygen 24 hrs a day. He also smoked,but it seems that years of breathing leather dust has also contributed to the problem. The initial expense of the equipment to keep the air clean in your shop will be paid back many times in better health down the road.

Lisa,
Yes dust is a problem. My Father had the perfect solution in Throckmorton. The finisher was located at the back wall of the shop and it was vented out into the back alley of the shop. He never had to empty the dust bag. I doubt if you could get away with this in the city though. If I were in the country I wouldn't hesitate though. I think that you will find though that an overhead vent does little to get rid of cement fumes. The fumes are heavier than air and need to be vented to the ground and out....TR

Lisa
Tex is right glue & solvents are heavier than air and must be vented separate from your dust collector if your collection system is full of cement fumes, and you are on the finisher and you hit a nail in a heel or any spark static or otherwise and its like throwing a match in a can of gas. I say this not to scare you its just a fact. A simple fume exhaust system can be run directly out side without a problem much like you would vent a dryer a small blower will work fine .And if you want better performance on your finisher increase the main pipe size to 6” to the machine then reduce it down to 4” at the machine .On long runs the resistance from the pipe itself will reduce the efficiency of the blower .I hope this helps .
Larry

Lisa

First thanks for raising such an important subject. Boot and shoe makers often don’t consider their working environment enough.

All the comments made here are so valid and relevant. Perhaps I can add the odd one and expand on another.

Dust extraction systems have been around as long as we have had powered scouring/buffing machines. Most of the various plus and minus points are well known and understood. For example, dust extraction systems in footwear factories normally suck the dust through a curtain of water. This does two things. First the risk of fire is almost completely eliminated and the dust is easier to collect because it is in the form of a sludge and will not fly up into the atmosphere when disturbed. However, this does not stop the risk of fire in extraction pipes. If for some reason dust in crevices is ignited by a spark, it can very quickly catch fire because there is a plentiful supply of oxygen being drawn along the pipe by the extractor. It’s rather like using bellows on apparently dead embers in a barbecue.

It is this oxygen supply factor which makes it so important not to have anything which could cause a spark.

The reference to solvent fumes is equally important not just because of fire risk, which is quite rare except where people are being stupid with naked flames nearby. As already raised by Tex, the major concern is for your health. The important factor is that any extraction should remove fumes FROM THE WORK BENCH downwards and not upwards, as Tex and Larry both spell out. It does not matter where the pipe goes after it leaves the bench. The best system is where you have the air being sucked down through a hole in your bench covered with a grill to stop things falling in, as shown in the diagram.



The numbers inside the dotted lines are parts per million of solvent on a typical workbench being used for more than two hours continuously, for sole/bottom cementing. Most small workshops never get anywhere near these figures but note the inward pointing arrows. These indicate the fresh air supply which is important if the flow down the pipe is to be maintained.

Just to repeat myself, I have seen a number of examples where workshops have been fitted with an extractor fan in a window above head height. In each case the worker was cementing on a bench against this wall and all the fumes were being dragged over his face to reach the extractor.

Thanks again Lisa for raising this discussion. Can I make a suggestion regarding cement fumes. Why not get rid of them by using water-based adhesives?

Frank Jones
frank.jones@shoemaking.com

Frank,
I have had to re-boot my computer twice since I started this. Very irritating....the system you pictured is in use in Europe and I believe required in some shops there. It is a very good idea but I am not sure if I will ever build one. Lazy I guess. It will work very well if you are against an outside wall but in the middle of the shop forget it! Nevertheless a good contraption.

The reaon we don't use any water based cements here is there aren't any that will do the job! I wish!.....TR

Tex,

I've been experimenting with a water based cement (no solvents) by the name of Aquilim. It's made by Renia. You can get it through Atlas International (http://www.atlasortho.com).

I'll let you know when I achieve a proper opinion.