The Crispin Colloquy

Al,

Got a source for #10 linen hand shoe thread?

Jake,

Try 'Windmill English Saddle Supply'--I think that's their name. They're in Ohio I think. Very nice folks, and on the web.

Thanks Big Al! I'll give them a holler. Let you know what they have to say.

Adios

Al,

Well, they ain't got it. Thanks for the contact anyway.

By the way, how are you fellers making your own threads now? You probably have a lifetime supply, huh?

Jake,

Ask them to order you some then.

We buy from them, or a contact in the UK. The stuff's still available.

Jake,

Just a thought...have you checked to see if plyed linen stitcher thread comes in 12 cord? I was looking through Handmade Shoes for Men and noticed that that seems to be what they're using.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

Hey D.W.,

Well....12 cord would be Ok for inseaming, but for handsewing an outsole on and placing them 10 spi....that would be a little much for me.

The problem with plyed linen cord, like Barbour's 6 cord, is that it's very hard to make the taper necessary to stay on the fishing line and pass through the hole. By using the #10 linen, you can really make the taper "fine". I have unraveled the plyed linen cord, but it's a pain in the backside!

I noticed the same page you are referring to, but I believe their stitching is a little farther apart than I'm wanting.

Thanks for the follow-up! By the way, I've got some dacron tapers coming from Main Thread. We'll see how they go. Take care!

Jake, I presume you are referring to inseaming tapers. Let me know how they turn out. I have been using the polyester from Ludlow.
Len

Len,

Yeah, I use Ludlow 72" poly tapers for inseaming myself. They do a great job, but of course, we're talking about a pretty heavy thread.

Here's a comparison with Maine Thread dacron tapers:

Maine Thread VS Irish Waxed Linen
8 cord = 7 cord
6 cord = 4 cord
4 cord = 3 cord

Len, I ordered some of each, but I'm mainly interested in their 8 cord tapers. That would be equivalent to an Irish waxed linen 7 cord. About right for me to sew an outsole on with.

Like I said, I'll let ya know when I get them next week.

Jake,

Not to to get you sidetracked, but it is possible to unravel the last 6 inches of plyed stitcher thread and within a relatively short time create a pretty serviceable taper. I do it with Teklon all the time, and I've done it with linen...although not that often. But my first impressions were that the linen was actually a little easier.

So why not start with a 7 cord linen and taper and wax it?

Of course, nothing will substitute for good Irish linen yarn ...but then, when you get right down to it, good linen yarn is probably a thing of the past long since.

BTW, I used unwaxed (I waxed it myself), 4 cord Teklon, right off the spool, to do the outsole stitching when I was experimenting with doing it by hand.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, Al, but isn't that yarn you're getting getting from the Saddlery a #3? It looks to be really good yarn but it seems thinner than the stuff I got from Campbell.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

Dee-Dubb,

Sidetracked? Heck, I stay that way! Jump right in Ol'Buddy!

So why not start with a 7 cord linen and taper and wax it?

You can do that alright, and I've done it, but then you run into the problem of not getting wax to all your threads on the ravelled section. When preparing my own thread, I like to separate my threads into bundles of 3 strands or so. Wax and burnish each bundle, and then roll and reburnish all the bundles together. As you know, the problem with linen is rotting. If you don't get some beeswax or pitch on them, well....you're setting yourself up for disaster.

I mean, if nothing else, you can do it as you described. We're probably splitting hairs anyway. By the time it rots, you're gonna need a half-sole .

I talked to two people at Windmill Saddlery, on two different occasions. Unless I just got unlucky, nobody hardly knew what I was asking for. The main hoss was out both times I called. I also sent an email, but to this day, no reply. You are probably right though, good linen is a thing of the past. I can still remember you teaching me how to make my own threads for inseaming. For some weird reason, I took a lot of pride in the finished product. And I've done it long enough to have a pretty hard opinion on this next statement: Nothing gives you a tighter "lock" in your stitching than a good hand wax and linen strings. Oh well.....progess!

One final note, I'm curious about your last statement to Al. Maybe there's a substitute I don't know about, and I'm not asking for the right product.

Bottom line.....CRANK UP THE OLD CURVE NEEDLE BOYS!

Guess I'm gonna have to take back all those nasty things I called her!

DW & Jake,

The last batch I got about a month ago from Windmill English Saddle was a #10. It might have been old stock, as it came in the little cylindrical Barbour cardboard boxes, with a little hole in the top for dispensing. The stuff I've gotten out of the UK [through a shoemaker there], as recently as last Summer, was loose balls with a pale greenish Campbell's label, boxed 24 to a tray. Likewise it was #10. Very clean, no slubs, but soft and shorter staple than I'd like--but it works okay.

If I can nail down a commercial supplier, retailer, or grindery merchant in the UK, I'll post it. Otherwise there is that gray hard-spun "single hand shoe thread" [unbleached stuff] from Barbour/Blue Mountain Industries in AL that comes in the little clear plastic jars with white screw-lids. I've been buying it at AGS/CUDAS in Ashland, VA [shoe repair supply]. It's about the strongest single ply I've seen for a while, but too dark and rough-looking for clean outsole stitching. Great for inseaming though, if you've not switched to poly tapers yet.

In my early years I used linen stitcher thread for hand-sewing, etc., and made a great "taw" [tapered tip] for twisting the bristles on by repeatedly dragging the end under a sharp knife, held at about 90 degrees to my lapboard. This frays it out very nicely. The largest linen stitcher thread I've seen in the past few years is 9-cord, which might be better for what Jake wants than 12-cord. Good luck!

Interested

I saw ya’ll have been talking about linen thread and that type of thing. The maker of what I use at my new job is called:

Barbour Cambell threads LTD.
Made in Northern Ireland

I’ve always been good at breaking the cords that I make other places. What they use here has held up for a month now. I use 7 “layers” on the men's shoes that are made. I haven’t tried 5 yet. I haven’t made any ladies yet.

Hope it helps.
CW

And on that note, I might remark that the last time I bought linen yarn was direct from:

Henry Campbell & Co. Ltd.
Belfast, N. Ireland

I ordered their Best Common Shoe Thread in boxes of 50 gram balls. It's been some years ago but it was good linen...better than anything I got domestically.

I would bet (hope) that Henry Campbell is still in business and that a letter to them would yield results. I'd guess that no other address than the above is needed.

I guess it's how much effort you want to go to, but it's surely worth a try.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

Chris/D.W.,

Thanks for the posts fellers!

I received my Main Thread poly tapers, but haven't had time to work with them. For the past 10 days I've been busy with some personal business outside the shop.

Dee Dubb, I'll try to get a letter off tomorrow to Henry Campbell & Company.

Just swallowed lunch. Gotta go!

Looks like the company is in Italy now. Here's the link to Barbour Campbell Company

Thought I would return to display some of my findings concerning threads, bristles, and hand sewing. I'm primarily interested in hand sewing the outsole, so the examples include a piece of welt cemented onto a piece of soling bend. Here are some of the tools I used. Not pictured is the 20 lb monofilament fishing line and hand wax.

First of all, I placed a stitch groove on my welt. I believe it helps center your thread into the groove, thus keeping your stitching straight. I then used a 7spi stitch wheel to space my stitches. I followed by cutting my stitching flap on the sole with my handmade knife and used a bone to raise the flap back. I then made my holes with a 3" sewing awl (not an inseaming awl).

In this demonstration, I will be testing Barbour's linen 6 cord and Maine Thread Company's 8 cord dacron tapers. Both are approximately the same size. I had to first make my linen tapers, which included separating the 6 individual wound threads. I used the back of my skiving knife to unravel them. Just lay the handle down on the thread about 12" from the end, and pull the thread to the end. I also found out after taking the pictures, you can place the thread on your thigh, and roll the thread to unravel it. I now prefer the later method because it doesn't fray the thread where I don't want it to fray. You can use a modeling tool to help separate your individual threads.

To taper your linen thread, you need to fray each individual thread (6) at different lengths. Hold one of the six individual threads between your fingers of each hand. Roll the thread until you can see the fibers running straight across from each hand, and then pull apart sharply. The thread will break, or fray.

At the top of the picture you can see what I have removed from the fraying process of one end. The middle thread is the fraying completed. The bottom thread is what the end looked like before I started.

After fraying each individual fiber, roll the threads together to make round again. Wax the frayed end with your hand wax, and place your bristle on. I used 20 lb fishing line with a roll technique, not splitting your bristle, but just winding the taper onto your bristle. The linen is on top.

The finished job with linen is below.

The sole before closing the flap.