Thread

[Duncan McHarg]

I've had to skip ahead due to lack of time,
Frank,I'm with you and would call 'it' shoemaker's wax ;I just thought 'these guys' knew better and it should be 'coade'
Al,if you put you're end on the bristle correctly straight bees wax will hold the end such that it will break rather than pulloff;I've tried a pull test.
Gottta go
Cheers Duncan

[D.A. Saguto--HCC]

Frank, and Gang,

Or should I say "cousin Frank"....? Hand wax in the USA? The only brand that I've ever seen for sale here in all my years is the one DW mentioned--Jarred Holt, distributed by Footwear Associated Products, Medway, MA. And, as he's observed it's brittle--too brittle. If we believe the admonishment of our leading "dead guy", John F. Rees, who penned the first shoe textbook of any size in English in 1812/13, though this stuff was for sale in shops even then ["finders" is Irish, "grinders" is English, "shoe supplies" is American], that better results could be had by making your own from pine pitch, pine rosin, and a little oil. I took Rees at face value, and have always made my own, substituting beeswax or tallow for the oil--oil will instantly spoil the wax if you're too generous. I do one batch in the Spring, harder for hot weather, and another batch in the Fall/early Winter, softer for cold days, sometimes custom-tempering one ball at a time if too hard/soft for the season. It only takes a hour or so to cook up a dozen balls, which last about 2-3 weeks each in constant use. Two hours a year is a small price to pay to get the "best" wax. And, as I like to say, you can use the best leather and the best thread, but if you're wax is no good, neither will give full service.

I've tried DW's favorite Vesta Pech, and some jet black wax called Svart Vaxbeck from Sweden that Goetz sells, as well as Frank's Thermo Wax. I think I like Thermo Wax best of these, but they seem to contain either petro chemicals, or coal tar, rather than pure pine products. Here again, it's a matter of what works for you. Just bear in mind that traditionally in Anglo-American shoemaking, it's been mostly the pure pine products.

The "Swedish burgundy pitch" I have been using as an ingredient in my own mix is the best I've found--even better than Rausch. It's more ductile and a little "kindlier" to work with, besides it smells good. I bought it from a firm in Leeds, UK about 10 years ago. They appear to have gone out of business, but maybe some clever person on here can find them for us again. Their name was North Sea & Baltic Co. I have sent a sample to Janne in Stockholm, with the hope he can find a supplier there. In the mean time I'd like to see some of Rausch's current softest pitch. It doesn't smell as nice, but we may have to settle for it, like so many other items that "they just don't make anymore".

Duncan,

I'll believe you when you say you can get bristles to stay put with just beeswax on the taws. But, since I'm mostly making historical repros, and "neo-classical" early 20th c. shoes and boots, the rosin-pitch-based wax is the only option for 99% of everything where hand-sewing is required. For fun you might try making some "masheen", or "machine" [variously spelt on both sides of the pond Frank]: beeswax with some rosin [and "creuse"=lead oxide for pigment] added, wrapped up in a scrap of white [whittawed] leather, the beaten with the hammer to incorporate--literally mash [hence the name] the ingredients, rather than melting them together. This way you'll get some of the benefits of the rosin, while maintaining your beeswax and white stitches. This stuff only dates back to the 1720s from what I've found so far, and was only used on the fancy [not utilitarian] sewing/stitching that showed. I doubt if it will protect the threads, say in the inseam, as well as the good old shoemakers' wax, but it is yet another possibility to explore.

DW,

All of this is sounding a lot like the chat we had years ago on wax and coad[e] under another heading here. Maybe you could jolt our memories, as well as steer the newer folks to that old and obviously neglected discussion. Get out the push-broom oh "janitor"

[Jonathon Head]

Al,
I'm sure were on the same wave lenghth as far as method is concerned, I think the only thing I need to change is my choice of wax. I'll see what I can dig up.
DW,
( For those less fortunate folks in far of lands )
Man, you've hit the nail (or should that be peg ) on the head with that comment. It seems to me from my far away veiw, that european countries are well catered for by the likes of Italy and the U.K. The western world by the mighty U.S.A. ...........Australia seems to get the dregs of what ever is left over. I'm sure my eyes would boggle to see the different products, materials, and tools available to you over there.
(Half your luck ) That is why the recipe you've just given can be invaluable to folks like me. Thankyou. I'm going to give my sales rep. a hard time this week and see what he can do for me, from there I might have to head down to Port Adelaide. A hard thing to stomach for we " Crow's" supporters. (australian football predjudice ) But I'm sure I know of a couple of sailmakers down there. Good advice!
From there I might have to find some friendly pine trees.
Cheers.
Jon.

[D.A. Saguto--HCC]

Jon,

Best of luck. The most reliable sources for pine-pitch are indeed ships' chandlers. An old boy once told me that in the days of wooden ships they'd sneak down to the docks in Baltimore at night, when new ships arrived from northern Europe or the Baltic, and scrape off a few pounds of "free" pine-pitch for shoemaking. Of course that was Baltimore--the shoemakers there rioted in the early 1800s, a foreman was hanged, and the militia called out...it must be something in the leather.

[rosynay]

Goodmorning Everyone!

This is a very informative discussion.
Thank you all for your input.

Now I'm off to make my homemade Starbucks pot of coffee and to see if
there are any good hammers on e-bay.

Good day to all!
RL
In Texas

[dw]

Al,

That's a good point, glad you brought it up--a keyword search of the forum would probably yield a lot of material and information that we haven't discussed here, as well as a lot we have. But, I for one--not having to deal with the gentle public the way you do--don't mind digging into it again and again. I think I learn something every time the subject is broached.

The vestapech, BTW, was purportedly a pure organic product of pine rosin and other natural volatiles. Ralph Burkhart, who worked for Goetz, assured me that there were no petrochemicals in the wax. VestaPech also made a white wax, some of which I still have, that seems to be merely rosin and beeswax. In fact it is very reminiscent of the old "Atom Wax"--the hot wax we used to use in our stitchers. I actually wish I had bought more of it...just to hoard, of course.

On a related note (and returning us to the topic at hand) if you inseam with linen thread "cered" with coad, and for one reason or another have to replace welt or re-stitch the inseam--perhaps someone stitched the outsole on too close to the inseam and cut the threads--you play hell trying to get the linen stitches out. The linen is just not strong enough--it'll break. Meaning that if you can't get the old stitches out, you've got to re-inseam over and beside the old stitches. This can weaken the holdfast and ultimately the inseam itself.

On the other hand, if you use Teklon/dacron thread, the wax adheres to the thread aggressively and "glues" the thread into the stitch, just as you have suggested. But when it comes time to replace the inseaming, the old dacron stitches will come out--not easily but at least they won't break in place.

From that I would draw the following conclusion...if a shoe is not made in such a way that it can be easily maintained and repaired, it loses some of what we call "quality." You can use Freudenberg upper leather, and Baker insole and outsole...and trim or make the shoe in such a way that even the maker has trouble repairing it...and at that point, it's not much different than a Reebok with molded soles. To determine quality, in my opinion, every technique we apply ought to be measured against longevity, utility, and repairablity (which itself is just an aspect of longevity). Not everyone would agree with me, but my experience tells me that the dacron is actually superior to the linen in that regard.

Tight Stitches...
DWFII--Member HCC

[fjones]

Marc

A belated response to your posting 25th March.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Since I don't believe there's been any push to force anyone to actually -use- the term, if you don't like it, you shouldn't feel any reason to use it. If you want to start fighting to come up with a single, unified jargon, just tell me and I'll happily stand aside and take notes.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

The last thing I would want is a standard set of technical terms. Life would be too boring. My only reason for raising queries about the use of the word “coade” in whatever spelling, was because not everybody reading or posting to the Colloquy works in a historical context. But on the other hand, for many readers, this is the only forum where they get to see and use technical terms on shoemaking.

I would suggest this means we (collectively) must be aware of a responsibility to disseminate technical terms in a balanced way. I basically felt that the word “coade” was increasingly becoming the only term used on the Colloquy for, what in modern English, is not called that. You said “whether it should be used today or not, it doesn't really matter to me”. As a historian I fully understand that. However, as an important member of the HCC and a valued contributor to the Colloquy, perhaps there could be another view.

I did not “want to start fighting” but I have no objection if you wish to “stand aside and take notes”.

My sole purpose was to get a little more balance into what sometimes feels like a Colloquy for period shoemakers, rather than a Colloquy for shoemakers. That was all I was trying to do. My apologies for not making that clear.

Frank Jones
frank.jones@shoemaking.com

[marc]

Frank,
There's certainly no need for you to apologize, since as far as I'm concerned you've done nothing inappropriate. If anyone has, it's been me. If I have misconstrued your meaning, please forgive me - it was unintentional.

Marc

[D.A. Saguto--HCC]

Deedub-yah,

-------------------------
"That's a good point, glad you brought it up"
-------------------------

Thanks. Well yes, answering the same shoe-question over and over, to up to 600 people an hour in a museum, kinda fries one's patience at times. Let me tell you about these unescorted school groups from Brooklyn who came through yesterday... [on second thought I'll spare you].

The "hot wax" for use in stitchers with functioning electric wax-pots is still available. Years back I experimented with this wax, too, for hand-work, but after all the melting and re-melting, the results weren't any better than I could get just making it from scratch. If you want to "hoard" some, try Frankfort Leather in Philadelphia, or call your local grinder/finder/shoe repair supply house. I even wonder how long we're going to be able to still get Solari's liquid stitching wax, with something less than 6000 shoe repair shops nation-wide, and hardly anybody manufacturing welted footwear these days. Might "hoard" that too.


I agree totally with your thinking on undermining the quality if the inseam packs it in, but I've never had that experience ripping-out an inseam. I've only been using those poly tapers experimentally for about a year or so, and none of that work has come back yet. I did get one of my first embarrassing attempts at making boots back this winter--for new heels. I made them in '74 or '75, and they've been abused, but the inseam, sewed with linen, is still standing firm. In recent years, however, we have had trouble with the newer crop of hemp and linen threads failing in the inseam. But, to remove the old stitches I just slip a curved sewing awl behind each broken stitch, and firmly lever them right out of the holdfast, no problemo.

---------------------------
"if you can't get the old stitches out, you've got to re-inseam over and beside the
old stitches. This can weaken the holdfast and ultimately the inseam itself."
---------------------------

Absolutely. But, as I say, this is not a very common situation in my experience, and I'd never double-up, throwing new stitches on top of old broken ones, unless it's just a stitch or three. If the inseam has failed for more than an inch, I'll always dig-out the old thread. The outsole stitching....? Well that can be a bugger to remove, because of weak and breaking thread bits, but plucking the old thread out of the welt is one application of needle-nose pliers I "approve" of in shoemaking

------------------------------
"From that I would draw the following conclusion...if a shoe is not made in such a way that it can be easily maintained and repaired, it loses some of what we call "quality."..../To
determine quality, in my opinion, every technique we apply ought to be measured against longevity, utility, and repairablity (which itself is just an aspect of longevity). Not everyone would agree with me, but my experience tells me that the dacron is actually superior to the linen in that regard."
------------------------------

I whole-heatedly agree with your first bit, assuming you're not implying that we should dumb-down our products in the making to the point that "easily" means by any glue-jockey cobbler. Rebuilding a welted shoe or boot properly takes more skill than the average repair shop is willing to muster--and what, for one pair in 50 or 100 that comes in the door welted, much less hand-sewn welted? If they faced rebuilding welted goods more often, and for more discriminating customers, perhaps they'd hone their skills, but I'm afraid those days are gone. Even in my career, about the most common inseam repair I've seen done commercially is a quickie "jerk-needle" job [imitating the inherently weak machine lock-stitch] with pre-waxed [slippy old paraffin] Daycron. In the end I suspect that the all-purpose cement was holding better than this "sewing".

I'm about on the verge of agreeing with your second bit too, but right now the jury is still out IMO. I will say that the poly tapers do hold up far better than the garbage linen shoe-thread that is commonly found these days, but oh for that old Campbell's #10 "best common" hemp from the '70s. Now that I'd put up against your poly any day :&#62

[dw]

Al,

Well, that's right...the linen thread available to us now is very unreliable. But I used to get some of that Campbells myself.

I brought all that up, at least partially, because I had a customer come in, last week, with a pair of elephants I had made some years ago--maybe 20 years ago. About two inches of the inseam had failed. I don't know why, the outsole stitching had not encroached on the inseam and all the surrounding inseam appeared to be sound.

So I grabbed my "stout" awl (I don't use a curved awl to pick inseam stitches because I'm afraid of breaking a good awl) and slipped the point behind one of the broken stitches deep in the inseam. Slowly...easy, DW....I began to lever the stitch. Slowly, slowly...Pop! Damn! I had the awl point fully behind the whole stitch, I didn't jerk it, and yet it still popped. I knew then it had been stitched with linen.

At that point, I stopped and I wet that area of the insole thoroughly because I knew if I popped another stitch, especially an adjacent one, I wasn't gonna get the stubs out even with the best needle-nose plyer. When the leather had mulled a bit I tried again, several stitches over. And this time the stitch came free. Slowly but surely the rest came. But I've had boots come in--some of my early stuff--that nothing I did would ease the stitches out. Every one popped, even when I wet the insole. And then what? You're left with a bunch of stubs that just fray and get even shorter when you try to pull them out with a plyer.

I can't believe that VestaPech is that much better than your handwax but the stitches are always "glued" in there pretty dern good. All of which is a testament to the VestPech or, (assuming the VestaPech is *not* any better than your handwax), an impeachment of the linen...or both.

Tight Stitches...
DWFII--Member HCC

[D.A. Saguto--HCC]

DW,

I'm sure in "geological-time" the synthetic threads are going to have a
half-life that rivals even Styrofoam coffee cups, as opposed to the natural
fibers like flax/hemp--only the best of which still look good and solid in
situ after maybe 300-plus years--a testament to both wax *and* thread,
though I wouldn't subject it to tensile strength tests

Over all I'm with you here, especially considering the crap we get these
days that passes for "shoe thread", but my main rub is that making
historical repros and traditional hand-sewn welted footwear, one can't use
poly tapers or nylon twist, and remain true to the artifacts, so I persist
in trying to find and use decent natural fibers. Blacksmiths today have
lost wrought iron, and approximate the old work with mild steel, and the
work shows it. Sure, it still involves heat, and a lot of banging on hot
metal, but there are profound changes in both the skills lost [those
peculiar to forging wrought iron], and the way the products perform.

Sure, it's just natural stubbornness on my part, and a reluctance to
surrender to the forces of modernity and mediocrity, but there it is.
Chrome uppers might last longer, too, and require less maintenance than
veg-tanned, yet I cling tenaciously to veg-tanned. Plastic lasts are
"better" in some ways than the traditional wood. You, and the other folks
who are making stuff "inspired by" the past, or "based on" the old boots
and shoes, have it easier--when the traditional or historical materials and
supplies--even the historical techniques--go "bye bye", you can flirt with
any innovation or improvement that the current age, or your own cleverness
affords you.

I know I've said it before, but we're fighting a loosing battle. Supplies,
materials, not to mention age-old tried and true techniques are
disappearing faster than a whole army of fully-staffed museums with endless
funding could preserve. It was an effort to try and find the "right" stuff
to make a few basic types of 18th c. footwear when I started. Now, almost
thirty years out, it's getting harder and harder, and I see the same thing
happening now to makers of traditional "vintage" type footwear as well,
like your boots from around c.1900 with hand-sewn welts, and maple pegs.
Pretty soon we're either going to just have to stock-pile what materials
and supplies we can scrounge, make a pair occasionally to keep our hands
in, and put the rest in a glass case on display next to the Brontosaurus
skeletons. Or, learn how to squirt shoes out of tubes onto "virtual" lasts

[jake]

Gary Cunningham,

Another item that may help you is to coat your taper with beeswax after you have attached your coade (handwax, shoemaker's wax, etc.) and bristle. Coating the last 10-12" of your taper with beeswax lubricates this area and allows you to get things started much easier.

Al's trick is very near and dear to my heart. I use it on each stitch!

Jake

[gcunning]

Thanks Jake
Funny the coade which I thought I did not use until reading one of the last post is summer
wax to me.
Jake, are you talking about right where I twist on to my fishing line. If so I thought that
point when pulled though caused friction, heating up the wax so it will pull though. If this
is true so far- Would the beeswax not disrupt this process?
Grasshopper confused.

[dw]

Al,

Not a thing you said that I would disagree with. Even in my earliest boots, if the inseam is not broken, the stitches *look* good---like you, however, I wouldn't want to test them for tensile strength.

I understand and sympathize with your need...quest...demand...for authentic materials in making reproductions. I don't know what a person can do, except go to making the wax yourself...go to spinning the flax, yourself. If you are willing to pay the price in terms of time and money, anything is possible, I guess. That's what "quality" is all about, isn't it? Even in the context of historical repros "quality" (or lack thereof) gets defined in terms of how many shortcuts you're willing to take away from what you know is right.

But I have to ask...just because it seems to me that you have posed the same question to me, and turn about is always fair play ...if the dead guys had had access to plastic lasts and dacron thread, do you think they would have clung to wood and linen?



Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[Jonathon Head]

Well guys and gals, I've got some more queries for anyone willing to step up to the plate.
Discussed the handwax with my sales rep today (Fri.29th.) and he seems to remember seeing some in a dark and dusty corner somewhere, only problem is they recently had a move of premises and he's fearful it may have been tossed out, simply because it had been sitting there for so long. Ye-gads!. He told me if they did still have it that it came in different colours,black,Dk.brown and a whisky tan. My question is : what are the different compositions of these colours and which one is most suitable for my needs (mainly inseaming)
I may have had some luck as far as thread go's however, picking up some of this Campbells thread.
The paper label has the words:
Barbour Campbell single shoe thread made in Northern Ireland. DW or Al may know if this is the suff they've been talking about in previous posts. Chances are its been sitting on the shelves since the 70's, who knows.
Cheers.
Jon.

[jake]

Gary,

Good point! You're assumption is correct on where to place the beeswax. In reality, this will not hinder your coade from doing it's job as you pull the rest of the thread through the holdfast. Yes, it will heat up and cool when you lock the stitch as described earlier by Al. The beeswax just helps in lubricating the first 10-12" of your taper, which in turn, decreases the tension on your bristle IF you have to pull on the bristle. Like I mention, Al's technique is extremely effective, and the way I pull every stitch. I can't remember the last bristle I pulled off my taper!

Hope this helps!

Jake

[dw]

Jonathon,

I seriously doubt that the wax your finder remembers seeing is handwax or coad. Most likely it is "Heel Ball"--a combination of beeswax, tallow, and coloring that was often used to camouflage "irregularities" (ahem) in the leather. I have several lumps that I bought within the last 20 years. You'd still be better off making your own.

As far as I know, the handwax only ever came in black and variations of black depending upon whether you added beeswax or not--and even that turned black. VestaPech made a white hand wax, but I've never seen any other.

The thread is probably the right stuff...usually it is labeled "#10 Linen Yarn."

Tight Stitches...
DWFII--Member HCC

[D.A. Saguto--HCC]

DW,

As to whether the dead guys would have adopted plastic lasts, and poly tapers--given the state of things today, the answer might be "yes" if they wanted to stay in business. My guess is "no", if there were plenty of wood lasts and good hemp thread to be had. But, that's not the real point... The "dead guys" aren't around to answer this, but I think they'd cling to what they were used to, to some degree, even if the quality was begining the slippery slide downward. IOW, they'd fight to cling to the things that meant "quality" to them. Remember the hissy-fits I threw when Bowman went out, and I had to buy my first plastic lasts a couple of years ago?

[rosynay]

One & All

This may or may not be of interest to
some of you. Today I went to Southern
Leather Co here in Houston and they had
flax thread in cord weights 4,5,6 and 7
from Barbours. I also saw the steel
pieces that are sewed in the boots.
They had some nice looking calfskin leathers in all colors and I think there were a lot of other findings I
probably did not see.

I purchased a great French pattern hammer and a small cobblers hammer.

These were very nice accomodating people. Jamie (Hymie) Lopez assisted
me.

Southern Leather, Inc
2510 Chenevert St Or
P O Box 1087
Houston Tx 7004-1213
713-658-0883
1-800-7889

[rosynay]

Zip code is wrong on Southern Leather Co.

Corrected addtress is as follows:

Southern Leather Co.
P O Box 1087
Houston Tx 77251-1087
1-800-467-7889

RL
In Tx

[D.A. Saguto--HCC]

Jon,

Not to blow off DW's comments above in reply to this, but "down under" you lot may well have been getting the British Thermo Wax Frank has touted--which is okay handwax for store-bought, and which came in black, dark brown, and a yellow-white color--go check it out. If it's old stock, they may well give it to you if you're a regular customer :&#62

As to which color does what, ask Frank. He told me too once, but I forgot.

Be wary of the Campbell's thread. If it is indeed old stock from the '70s, and has been not stored up high and dry on a shelf, it may be rotten. I inherited a good selection of shoe threads from my late master's estate, most I guess was bought in the '60s, and while it all looks fine, most of it is dry rotted--nice to look at, but never mind using it.

[dw]

Al,

Well, he said, half tongue in cheek, if the dead guys would have made the switch--if only to stay in business--wouldn't it be historically correct for you to switch, too? I mean, that's the whole point of archeological shoemaking isn't it? To feel and understand what our ancestors did and thus understand what they *might* have done in a given situation...? You don't do repros just to pretend you're really a 17th century shoemaker, do you? And the 600 will never know the difference, that's for sure. Heck, if your order was big enough, I bet you could get Jones and Vining to "marbleize" the plastic in their lasts so that it even looks like wood.

In my case, not feeling as constrained as you do, I try to be very careful and very respectful of the standards of excellence that I think (and, beyond just my opinion, I think the case can be successfully made) represent the height of shoemaking. I also believe that in order to achieve those standards we have to be wary of any techniques or materials that take us substantially away from the very skills that generated those standards, in the first place. But having said that, if I evaluate a thread, for instance, and decide that the end result is actually better than can be gotten with contemporary materials or even with historical materials, I am free to switch--free, most importantly, in my own mind. In some ways, I sometimes think I am, in that sense, and using that approach, coming closer to the spirit of the dead guys than those who work under strict historical constraints.

A slightly facetious example...given that historically flax and hemp were retted in open ponds and that the resulting fiber could be as long as the original plant was tall (doesn't hemp get over 10 feet tall?), which is closer to the historical *experience*, in your opinion...making waxed ends from linen thread with a staple of four inches...OR...making waxed ends from dacron with a staple of twelve feet?

It's an interesting conceit, don't you think?

Tight Stitches...
DWFII--Member HCC

[mnewberry]

Al,

Have you asked J&V for wooden lasts? I have, and although I think I was speaking with someone at the front desk, they said that they DO do them. I didn't get a cost, though.

Matt

[Duncan McHarg]

G'day Jonathon,
The Cambells Linen Single Shoe (little green label on 50gm balls,no mention of No.10) is the stuff I've been using,though a year ago a weaver sold me 4 large cones of 20yr old Aust.single linen which at the moment I prefer.Watch out on the Cambells stuff;every ball will probably have a knot in it!Somebody please tell me why.
Cheers
Duncan

[D.A. Saguto--HCC]

Matt,

The JV custom shop under Jason Bibb tells me "no wood", at least not maple, and besides, there're no more rock maple last blocks except what have been squirreled away. The last domestic quote I had for any wood [species unknown] lasts was $180 a pair--the plastics are now $120 from JV. There are other woods used, especially beech and hornbeam, in Europe, and the next step will have to be to go off-shore for wooden lasts I'm afraid. But, have you ever used a European beech last? Hornbeam? Mexican mesquite? They're all several steps down from rock maple, but at least they're still wood