Thread

[das]

DW,

Pretty sure when we're reading "The Dead Guys", say, pre-1860s, like Rees, Devlin, et al, when they say "hemp" they mean yarn made from the hemp plant, which tends to be rough-textured but strong (welt-sewing, sole-stitching, etc.); and when they say "linen", they mean yarn from the flax plant, which is smoother and not quite as strong (uppers closing or fine work). I think what might have muddied/blurred the precise usage was the advent of sewing machines for closing uppers (adopted c.1857), and where mechanization was taking things, e.g. the precipitous decline in hand-closing uppers.

[kps1ny]

Hi - are those eBay and Etsy sellers still offering the #10 Barbour linen / hemp thread? I've tried to find them, but no joy... any direct links or mentions of the seller names / IDs would be most appreciated.

-Ken

[dw]

DW,

Pretty sure when we're reading "The Dead Guys", say, pre-1860s, like Rees, Devlin, et al, when they say "hemp" they mean yarn made from the hemp plant, which tends to be rough-textured but strong (welt-sewing, sole-stitching, etc.); and when they say "linen", they mean yarn from the flax plant, which is smoother and not quite as strong (uppers closing or fine work). I think what might have muddied/blurred the precise usage was the advent of sewing machines for closing uppers (adopted c.1857), and where mechanization was taking things, e.g. the precipitous decline in hand-closing uppers.

I don't doubt that hemp thread was available at some point--after all most if not all the ropes on sailing ships for several centuries were made of hemp. And I am always struck by the similarity of shoemakers' hand wax to the tar and pitch used on those ropes. I think it is no coincidence that one of the first (and only) places I ever found pitch was Rausch Naval yards.

That said I have bought "hemp" thread/yarn and...both contemporaneous and vintage...and seen no visible or functional difference between the linen and the supposed hemp.

[das]

DW, and don't forget all the millions of miles of hemp-canvas made for sails too, and the "blackest Swedish pitch" Reese recommends to make wax. One account, I think maybe in the anecdotal shoemaker reminiscences in 'Sketches of Lynn', 1880--a New England source anyway--mentioned sneaking aboard ships to collect pitch off the ships' seams to make wax. I think it's all to easy today to forget that the US was a maritime nation early on, especially out here in the east, and all of the big cities, and some not so big, were ports with ships "everywhere", even out on your coast: http://www.blackdiamondnow.net/black-di ... 1800s.html

I think you'd need a microscope to conclusively tell a flax fiber from a hemp fiber, but remember, in the Age of Sail hemp was king, because it did not rot in the wet like flax. Hemp was widely cultivated to feed the maritime needs, and "ships' provisions" (pine-pitch, tar, etc.) were huge extractive industries in the US since the early 1600s. Old Rausch Naval Stores just happened to be the last surviving "dinosaur" of what was once a vast US economy in pine-pitch, etc. When gum turpentine production (destructive distillation of pine stumps) went out here, in the 1990s, it was the death knell for the by-products like our beloved pitch. Last time I tried to buy "Stockholm" pitch from Sweden, all that offered anymore came from China.

Exactly when in the 20thc shoe thread producers started calling, grey, coarse, unbleached flax "hemp", and the use of actual hemp was phased-out I can't say for sure. But with a little hunting around these days you can still get real hemp yarn.

[ArborCW]

Hi - are those eBay and Etsy sellers still offering the #10 Barbour linen / hemp thread? I've tried to find them, but no joy... any direct links or mentions of the seller names / IDs would be most appreciated.

-Ken

This seller has her store on Etsy, but you can reach her on Instagram as well. Her name is Maggie and I picked up a few pounds of the No10 Barbour hemp from her. In terms of condition, I was able to break it but had to pull the s%&@ out of it to do so.


https://www.etsy.com/transaction/1426898224


This seller is in the UK. It's from the same supply (now gone) that was for sale on Etsy until very recently. I have also worked with him in the past and would recommend him as a seller.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Barbour-Sons-N- ... 2520277363


Hope that helps!

[kps1ny]

Thanks for posting these links... just found this message (I had expected the system to notify of any replies). I'll check them out :-)

-Ken

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[Jonvansickle]

This is my first post here. I hope it's in the right place. Can anybody please help me find a source for a natural fibre thread suitable for sewing uppers on an industrial sewing machine. I was originally thinking linen but now that I've been reading here hemp seems like a good choice also. Looking for sizes 69-207. Thanks!
Jon V

[dw]

Well, the only experience I have with "natural fiber thread" is the thread I use in my big stitchers--Landis F and American Straight Needle. That said you can get just about any weight/size of linen thread at a 'grindery' / finder--someone like Oregon Leather, for instance.

Hemp? I dunno.

Silk, maybe.

[das]

For uppers you want Barbour's "machine twist" linen, in sizes 3-cord #18, #25, and #35. Usually only comes in white, brown, and black. Check eBay. Try sizes/samples for suitability in your machine before bulk buying. For common Singers, say 18 class cylinder arms, #35 (the smallest) feeds fine--#18 will be too thick. You'll need thread lube/oil of some kind for it to feed properly.

[PhilipB1]

For stitching the welt, is unwaxed Dacron / Teklon polyester still the preferred option for a synthetic thread? In 11 cord (8 ply)?
Is it still available from the Maine Thread Company?
And does anyone know where to buy it (or equivalent) in Europe?

[carsten]

Yes it is still available from the Maine Thread Company. Just recently I bought there 8-5 and 11-7 cord unwaxed thread. Buying it from Europe however costs significant shipping and import tax. Would be great if somebody could post a European source. So far I have not found any.

[dw]

I suspect that the word "preferred" is a little problematic. I like the Teklon but I don't know how popular it is among other makers and would be a bit surprised if it had any following in Europe.

Beyond that, if I'm not mistaken "welt stitching" refers to sewing the 'outseam'--the welt to the outsole, if only because 'stitching' is a specific term referencing the use of a 'square awl.'

I use the 8 ply for inseaming ('sewing' with a curve sewing awl) but if I were going to use the Teklon for 'welt stitching' I would separate two 3 ply threads out of the 8 ply and use a 3 ply for the stitching.

YMMV.

[PhilipB1]

Thank you both for replying. Sorry I was incorrect in terminology. I was asking about inseaming, but I shall also try the Teklon for outseaming, so that is good to know.

Is the 8-5 the for outseaming and 11-7 for inseaming? I'm a bit confused by the numbering system - what do the numbers mean?

I'm also intrigued as to how the preferred thread size was selected. I understand for the same thread thickness that polyester is much stronger than linen, so are you looking for a similar diameter thread or similar strength (presumably thinner), or something else?

DW is I'm sure right in that amongst the West End bespoke trade there is no synthetic thread following (except of course for uppers). But there seems to be a number of converts among the HCC contributors and it looks to me as though there are a few European makers who might be using synthetic threads.

At the moment I'm reading the thread wax posts. It's taking a while... I'm keen to know what is the favoured thread wax for Teklon. It will be interesting to see if the favoured recipe is the same after 22 pages as it was at the beginning and if it has any of the elusive pitch in it.

[carsten]

@PhilipB1 For what it is worth: left you see the 11-7 thread and the 8-5 is on the right from the Maine Thread Company. Not sure what the first number refers to, but the second is evidently the ply. The thread is really loose, so that it opens easily when pushed from two ends inwards. Maybe @dw can give more guidance here, but I have been using the 8-5 for inseaming and I have not been able to tear it, unlike the linen thread I had used before. I found the 11-7 thread somewhat too thick for my holdfast, but I might be wrong about that. Oh: the scale is in mm.

[dw]

I am near-as-nevermind certain that what I use is the 11-7. originally (when I first twigged to this) i wanted a thread that would emulate an handmade 11 cord linen thread for inseaming as that is the preferred weight for men's work (or so it was told to me). In my estimation, the 11-7 comes pretty close...maybe a bit thinner.

I suspect that the first number of the Teklon designates the weight of the individual 'yarns,' much as linen and hemp are spun and marketed in various weights. IIRC, the linen yarn I have seen and used is #10.I do have other weights... mostly lighter and thinner.

The way I see it, the inseaming thread should go a significant distance to fill up the channel. In fact, When I create the channel, I never, ever, cut a bevel in it as so many others do. I leave it as a groove (or a vertical incision) in the the insole. So that the inseaming thread fills that groove. I regard that bevel as extremely problematic unless filled with the wedge of leather that was removed (or something like it...and cork is not sufficient). I have looked into hand welted shoes that have been worn a while and all too often seen a depression all along the line of the inseam from the grain side...indicating that the bevel was not filled and the insole is collapsing into the void.

[PhilipB1]

Again, thank you both. A picture is worth a thousand words, as they say. DW, Maine has confirmed that you have ordered the 11-7 (11 cord 7 ply) as well. I'm working with inseaming thread that's about 1.5mm (0.06"), give or take. From the Maine website, their 6 play waxed polycord is about 1.27mm (0.05") so it looks like the 7ply is going to turn out fractionally smaller than my normal inseaming thread. I'll order some.

DW, I likewise cut the inside holdfast as a channel and not a bevel (I have paid attention to your posts). As a result, I haven't yet needed any filler (although I put a piece of linen between insole and outsole to stop the squeaking I might theoretically otherwise get).

Carsten, around three weeks ago you reported on some interesting thread wax experiments in the Hand Wax / Coad thread. Could you post an update of your results in that thread please? I'm interested to know if your Vogtländer Fichtenpech brewers pitch made good thread wax for Teklon.

[carsten]

@PhilipB1, I made two versions of wax: one with and one without Stockholm tar. Contrary to the first experiments I warmed everything up rather slow (maybe 30% power). Of all components Stockholm tar has the lowest boiling temperature.
Turns out that using a silicone form works great.

For a first test I applied each version to a nylon thread and simply fed the thread ends from both sides through a holdfast channel, without intertwining them.
I think it might work. Temperature is important though. My workshop has presently about 14-15 Deg. C. This seems to be to cold to work with it, my office on the other hand has about 20-22 Deg. C. At least with the first test in the office, nothing was flaking of and the thread gets locked within the channel.

My impression is that the one with the tar might be a little better. In German the waxed thread is called "Pechdraht" which would translate to "pitch wire" in English. I don't know if that means anything, but I would say that the thread maybe does acquire some wire like property in terms of stiffness and bending, when this wax is applied to the thread.

Unfortunatelly I did not get a chance to do some real inseaming with it yet, but I had sent a sample of both versions over to @nickb1. Nick: Please feel free to post your review if you get a chance to try it.

[nickb1]

I have looked into hand welted shoes that have been worn a while and all too often seen a depression all along the line of the inseam from the grain side...indicating that the bevel was not filled and the insole is collapsing into the void.

I can confirm this has happened to mine. I think the reason for the bevel is to facilitate access for the awl. Hasluck describes the holdfast as only containing the outer cutaway - no incision - btw. It seems to me either way will be more difficult than the bevel, given that's what I learned, but will try with an incision next time around. Perhaps I'll also need an awl with a steeper angle. I saved the cutaway this time but by the time I got round to using it it seemed too scrappy to be useful.
Nick

[dw]

@nickb1

Actually, when it comes to facilitating the awl, there really is no need for the bevel whatsoever. Cut your channel. Use a groover or a knife. Don't cut it too deep--not much deeper than the thickness of your thread. Then moisten the insole leather along the line of the channel. Let the leather sit a moment.

Take a bone folder or a stitch prick or a heel breasting iron and run it along the inside edge of the channel. Hard and at an angle.

What you'll end up with is a 'bevel' almost as if you had cut it out...but of course, you've not removed any leather at all (with the exception of the channel groove...which will be filled with the thread).

This pseudo-bevel will allow the awl easy access to the holdfast but when the shoe has been inseamed, it is easy enough to gently hammer and / or chase the leather of the insole back together--close the channel back up. If the channel is cut or grooved to the right depth you can close things back up such that the channel (and the thread) is more or less invisible.

In the photo here you can see the result...

DSC00581_(1024_x_768).jpg

[carsten]

Great idea. Thanks for sharing @dw . So you mean more or less like this? But the step on the outside remains, right?

[dw]

@carsten

Yes. And then the so-called bevel doesn't have to be cut, just 'press' the bevel in. If the leather is at the right moisture level, it will remain a bevel during inseaming and almost automatically close back up with wear--no material removed.

BTW, and FWIW, I run the hole right down to the 'corner' of the holdfast and the 'feather'...keeps stitches straight if nothing else.

[carsten]

Thanks @dw This will be another thing I will try with my next pair - although until now I think I felt more the thread as an unevenness on the grain side than a bevel born cavities. At least it has never really bothered me until now that I know that it can be done better

I suspect that the bevel originally maybe was implemented to give more room for the bristle to bend smoothly and to allow that it can be inserted or exit more or less horizontally rather than for helping the awl. But that is just a guess on my part.

[dw]

I suspect that the bevel originally maybe was implemented to give more room for the bristle to bend smoothly and to allow that it can be inserted or exit more or less horizontally rather than for helping the awl. But that is just a guess on my part.

Maybe, But I don't think so. I don't know how far back beveling the channel goes but unless it is a fairly modern technique, used in conjunction with steel bristles, I can't imagine a competent shoemaker needing to bevel.

When you use boar's bristles or even...maybe esp. nylon bristles...the bristle does not need to be forced to 'turn a corner' or follow the path of the awl. In fact, that's the last thing you should do. When I inseam, I deliberately and mindfully hold the bristles two inches or so from the end of the bristle. This allows the bristle an ability to move in several dimensions and deflect off of edges and errant fibers.You have to 'seduce' the bristle and if you do (once you get the hang of it), you will be surprised by how compliant and willing it can be.

Nylon bristles can be given a slight curl with the thumbnail (and IIRC so can boar's bristles) and still remain flexible and 'willing' to follow the easiest path through the holdfast.

When I sew the heel area of a shoe, I use a deeply (almost impossibly deep) curved awl and make my plunge holes very near the edge of the leather. Fundamentally, I want there to be little or no clearance between thew threads and the upper and I want the hole itself to be as short and as tightly radiused as possible while still going through roughly half the substance of the insole. So there is no bevel nor even a 'psuedo-bevel'. No room for the bristle to inserted or exited horizontally--the bristle must enter the hole in the insole at almost a vertical angle, make the turn gracefully and exit the hole in the insole at another almost vertical angle.

Point is that given the proper tools, materials and techniques, there is no reasonable need for a bevel...except perhaps as a 'crutch' for students.

IMO...