Insole leather

[dw]

Jenny,

Bruce is spot on about the iron stains. In fact, a credible black dye may be made by soaking iron filings in vinegar. I use oxalic acid to remove the stains...no biggie.

But it sounds to me like you do indeed have mold growing on your damp insole. This can happen depending upon your climate and the source of the insole and how much residual vat liquors etc. are still in the leather to feed the mold. More often it happens simply when the wet insoles are left in a dark place with little or no air flow.

Mold is not exactly a disaster but it is to be avoided if possible. It will leave stains.

I generally wipe down the affected leather with a mix of alcohol, water and ammonia. I think it's one part, one part half part...in that order. But plain wood alcohol will kill it. I've even heard of people putting a cap full of bleach into their soaking bucket.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[jenny_fleishman]

Thanks, all. What is wood alcohol and where can you get it? Is that the only kind of alcohol that works? Do you rinse it off with water afterwards? Same question about the water/alcohol/ammonia mix. Putting a foot into a shoe that had the insole wiped with ammonia sounds unappealing Can you ever get the smell out?

Bruce, if it's the iron problem, and I try the lemon juice, again, do I have to rinse it off? If you use bleach in the soaking water, will the insole smell of bleach?

In either case, mold or iron, don't these treatments only work on the surface? Is the problem usually all the way through the thickness of the leather?

Is there a way to tell if the problem is mold or iron?

The insoles don't look quite as bad now that they're dry, but they still have spots. The fact that the piece that isn't tacked is much better than the insoles makes me suspect the tacks, but who knows...Are some brands of tacks better than others, if this is the cause?

Jenny

[dw]

Wood alcohol can be found at the hardware store.

The ammonia is diluted with twice its volume of both water and alcohol. The recipe (I'll have to check the exact proportions) is one that was passed on to me from Prime Leather Finishes to remove extranneous wax and so forth from the outsides of boots just prior to finishing them. But I have found that it works well in a number of other situations. It's not strong enough to remove most finishes but it will handle the mold. Because it sinks in, it will kill the mold down deep.

All iron tacks will leave spots on the leather. If your water has a high iron content (maybe from going through old iron pipes) you'll get spots.Veg tans are very susceptible they stain easily when in contact with iron. Rub the wet insole with a hammer face...just a few passes...you'll get a stain.

Iron stains are really not a problem except cosmetically.


Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[jenny_fleishman]

Thanks. I'll watch for the recipe! I'll also try to post a photo of the insoles when I get home tonight to get opinions on mold vs. iron.

DW, Bruce mentioned that the acid from iron can harden the leather, if I understood correctly. Have you also had problems with this? Do you think I should start over with a new pair of insoles rather than try to salvage these (although they are only for fitter shoes)?

P.S...how did yesterday's messages get archived so fast? Today's readers won't know what we're talking about unless they go back to the archive! Sounds like it might be a common problem, too...


Jenny

[bjohnsonleather]

Jenny,
I do rinse after using either lemon juice or oxalic acid with plain clear water. Both of these will remove the iron spotting. Some pretty good leather carvers will wipe their whole saddle down with oxalic acid to clean it prior to dying, removes surface oils besides black spots to allow even dye penetration, so they say.
Regarding mold vs. iron spotting. I usally find the iron spots to be showing up within a few minutes to an hour or so, mold takes overnight. I have been casing with ProCarve, an additive that is a surfactant to allow fsater water penetration and has a fungicide or fungistat in it. It has eliminated my mold problem. A couple of my Cajun buddies swear that by just casing with ProCarve, they have eliminated molding on their final products on down the road.
I now try to use stainless steel or brass nails whenever possible to avoid iron spots, and use as few cut tacks as possible. I don't know of any availability of SS tacks. Stainless nails seem to more available all the time in hardware stores.

[jenny_fleishman]

Bruce, can you clarify what you said about the iron causing the leather to harden? Do you have to case the iron with a preventive like the ProCarve to avoid this? I would think just wiping the surface to get rid of the stains wouldn't help with hardening...

The dark spots appeared within an hour, so hopefully it's iron. Sounds more appetizing to me than mold, even though I don't plan on eating the shoes

Jenny

[bjohnsonleather]

Jenny,
Sorry for the confusion. The iron doesn't harden the leather. It is treating with the acid that does. Especially treating with oxalic acid seems to harden the grain of the leather to make cutting with a swivel knife a lot harder. How this relates to hardening up insoles and if this is a concern, I will leave that to the capable pros on this forum.
I have found the ProCarve to prevent mold, but not to prevent the iron staining. Wiping the surface with either lemon juice or oxalic acid will reverse the reaction that causes the black specks, or bleach or leach it out. It does tend to slightly change the leather color in the area, so I tend to want to rinse or wipe the whole surface with clear water to even things out.

Bruce

[jenny_fleishman]

So wiping the surface with lemon juice should (hopefully) remove the stains, and then wiping with clear water is enough to prevent the leather from hardening??

Are the iron stains strictly a cosmetic problem? Since it is just insole leather, I'm not that concerned about appearance, and I wouldn't want to do anything to make the leather stiffer.

Would lemon juice and/or bleach cause stiffening? If you add bleach to the casing water, does the bleach stay in the leather and cause any negative effects to the leather over time, or irritate the foot?

Do all shoe/bootmakers come across this issue? Or is the quality of the leather a factor, and perhaps I just have inferior leather?

Have I beat my record for number of questions in one post? Thanks to all for your patience


Jenny

[dw]

All,

The exact recipe is 1 part ammonia, one part water, and one-half part alcohol. I use this to clean hand wax and dirt from my boots before the final finish is applied. I also use it to dissolve the "paint" on the Italian soling I like.

I don't carve much anymore. Not like Bruce does. If you are carving you want a fairly mellow grain. I don't even try to get rid of incidental iron stains on insoles. They are superficial and genrally only visible on the flesh side.

I do wipe my outsoles with oxalic acid and I have never noticed a significant hardening. Veg tan soling is acidic anyway (tannic acid) but outsoles in particular want to be firm, so any minor hardening...that might cause a problem for Bruce...wouldn't be significant in my book.

PS...the messages get archived at Emmett's convenience. Anyone who gets email notification knows what is being discussed and anyone who doesn't would have to look under "last day" to pick up on any ongoing discussions. The posts that have been made in the last 24 hours are listed under "last day" even if they are archived. Figuring these kinds of things out is why Emmett gets the big bucks.


Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[jenny_fleishman]

Thanks, DW...do you only wipe the surface with this recipe? Or do you ever use it as casing solution, and if so, does it remain in the leather and smell, etc.?

Is mold on insoles really much of a problem, or is it a rarity?

Jenny

[jenny_fleishman]

Picture...

4347.jpg

[dw]

Jenny,

Surface only.

BTW, if you think about it...you use ammonia for cleaning floors, etc. and after a bit it doesn't smell at all. I've never used ammonia full strength on a boot...or in a boot, either...but I doubt that your concerns with wearing the shoe and having a bad smell are justified.

And with regard to ammonia, there is a product that we've used for decades called edge ink or burnishing ink. Large finishers were equpped with two small pots that hung off the rail of the brush section. These pots were intended to hold the edge ink. After a time it dries up and becomes semi-hard (or even brittle if left long enough).I have always thinned that ink with ammonia and water as ammonia is a great solvent for wax (which is why it is used to clean floors).

Added to that, I buy wax products manufactured specifically to put, or more correctly, replace, a top coat on leather that has been wet and worked. It is acrylic based and produced by Prime Leather Finishes, although several other outfits produce something similar. Several years ago (maybe more than several now) I called them and asked what to use to thin the wax out with. Guess what? I was told water and ammonia! Now having said that, the proportions are critical and I would not recommend thinning a Prime Leather Finish with anything unless you are desperate. But they are ammonia based...at least in part.

The upshot of all this is simply to repeat...I don't think there's really any problem using ammonia...judiciously, of course.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[dw]

If you soak soling leather--or any veg tan/retan--and put it in a dark damp place for 24 hours it will develop mold. Even if you don't put it in the dark---just leave it wet or moist so that it has no chance to dry out, you'll get mold.

This brings up an issue that often goes by the way, so to speak...

Leather is a natural product. It is created from organic material that more than one organism on this planet sees as a food source. Even tanning...which is a preservative...can only change the nutrient quotient so much.

The foot itself is part of an organism. It has its own little micro-environment flourishing on the skin. Bacteria, shed skin, skin mites, and various exudates--salt, moisture, oils, etc..

The interior of a shoe, that is being worn, is a jungle...a perfect terrarium--heat, moisture, bacteria...keeping conditioners in and on the insole may feed the little buggers, but in the absence of those conditioners, the insole dries out...having yielded up all its nutrients to nano-grazers...and eventually degrades to the point where the leather is "dead" and un-revivable.

If the shoe is empty, the voracious little beasties are simply waiting for you stick your foot in there and supply the warmth and moisture needed to resume their feeding frenzies.

happy hoofing...

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[jenny_fleishman]

Beasties or not, I'm happy with the results of soaking the insoles! I trimmed one (rather raggedly, with some damage to both the last and my knife [img]http://www.thehcc.org/forum/images/old_smilies/sad.gif"%20ALT="sad[/img] ) and took if off the last, and it really holds its shape. I didn't wet the insole for my first fitter shoe, and it has lost most of its toe spring.

Jenny

[jenny_fleishman]

Need help! I am having trouble with my insoles shrinking. History: soaked the leather thoroughly--one layer of 6-7 oz to add depth for molded footbeds, and one layer of 4-5 oz for the actual insole. Tacked them on the lasts--a few tacks down the center and more around the edges. Let it dry for a couple days. Trimmed it with a knife. A few days later, it seemed like the leather had shrunk just slightly, particularly the 6-7 oz. I took the insoles off the lasts so I could make a mold of the lasts. Now it is 2 weeks later, and I was going to tack the insoles back on the lasts. I find the insoles have shrunk furthur, so they are about 1/4" shorter than the last! [img]http://www.thehcc.org/forum/images/old_smilies/sad.gif"%20ALT="sad[/img]

How can I avoid this? Should I soak the leather once and let it dry for a week so it shrinks, then soak it again and tack it on the lasts, wait a week for it to dry, then trim? Or does the leather expand whenever it's wet, so this wouldn't make any difference? Or does the first wetting/drying get all the shrinkage out?

If there is any shrinkage in the leather, I'd like to get it out so the shoes don't shrink the first time they're worn out in the rain!

Does all veg tan shrink like this, or is it the quality of the leather I'm using? (from Tandy's, if I remember correctly)

Jenny

[tmattimore]

I think it may be a function of how the leather was split to thickness at the tannery too much may have been taken off from that particular side to get the thickness. All veg tan is not created equal. The stuff that is very white and fiburous even though stiff may not hold up to what you are doing. Also some tanneries will over stretch the hides in hydrualic stretchers to turn a 19 sq ft hide into a 22 sq ft This will shrink more in use then one not so tortured.
tom

[jenny_fleishman]

To confuse the issue...I did an experiment last night. Cut out insoles out of the 6/7 oz. veg tan. Put them on a piece of paper and drew their outline. Soaked the leather for about 1/2 hour, then put them back on the outlines. Sure enough, they were about 1/4" to 3/8" longer than the outline I had drawn when they were dry. So perhaps the problem is expansion when wet, and then maybe the leather returns to it's original size when dry (or perhaps even smaller, remains to be seen!). Is there leather to be had that doesn't do this?

Jenny

[dw]

This is why insole leather is such an issue right now...at least for me it is. There is no telling what exactly you are using for your insoles from your single descriptor of "from Tandy's." But chances are it is not a long fibered leather specifically intended for insoles. Now add to that what Tom said...

I don't see anything particularly wrong with your idea of wetting the leather and letting it shrink as it will prior to re-wetting it and actually tacking it to the last. However several things come to mind...tacking the insole for one--I tack very close to the featherline and at fairly close intervals--maybe 3/4"-1". Some actually tack the wet insole well beyond the featherline so that the tacks hold the insole tight to the the sides of the last. In the photo you posted above it seems that you have not tacked the insole either tightly or closely enough.

The other thing is that once the insole is tacked to the last it should not be taken off and left off for any extended time. Even the best insoles will shrink over time and exposure to heat and moisture but you want the insole to be at full width and length when you last and inseam your shoe. After that some shrinkage will not affect fit or comfort significantly.

And finally you may consider adding a conditioner of some sort to the insole just prior to or after lasting. I tallow my insoles (an ancient concept) prior to channeling and lasting...grainside only...and that not only softens the corium and augments the ability to make a footbed, but it also sets up a reservoir of conditioning in the insole that will prevent cracking and shrinkage as time goes by.

I will say one other thing if you will forgive me and understand that I admire your spirit...

Making shoes and boots is difficult enough when you have the proper tools and the proper materials. In their absence it becomes incrementally more difficult with every "make do." There is a reason why most of us buy from a very limited list of suppliers...and Tandy, because they are generalists is not among them. Sometimes, as in this case, it is difficult to speculate about what is causing the problem or even what to do about it...simply because using leather of that particular tannage, quality, and temper may well be outside most of our experiences.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[jenny_fleishman]

DW and anyone else, can you tell me a good supplier for quality insole leather? As a novice, I am learning everything the hard way!

Does high quality insole leather NOT expand when wet? I don't know enough about leather to know what is "normal" leather behavior!

At the moment I am considering proceeding with the shoes I am working on without wetting the insoles, which I know will certainly not help with the problem I am having in maintaining the toe spring. However, I would like to actually finish a pair of shoes before I am too ancient to walk! How bad an idea would this be (to not wet the insoles)?

If I instead wet the leather I currently have, and tack it tightly, it seems I would have to let it dry for about 2 weeks before I dare take any of the tacks out to last the upper, and I still don't know if it will shrink back to it's original size even after it's dry....And waiting 2 weeks for it to dry seems like an eternity.

Again, any recommendations of suppliers of good insole leather greatly appreciated! Thanks.

Jenny

[tmattimore]

Jenny I have had very good luck with skirting from Wickett and Craig. It is firm and has a very good oil content. This is for mckay work where I don't cut a hold fast or channel, for welt work I would only use sole leather. These may be too thick for the effect you are trying to get from your shoes. Since it sounds like you are using a thin insole and sock liner have you considered something like rawhide? just an idea. I don't know if it would work.
Tom

[jenny_fleishman]

DW and Tom...one factor that perhaps should affect my leather selection...I am doing strictly cement down construction, no welting, etc. Will Barge adhere to leather insoles with a good oil content?

DW, also, re tallowing...similar question-- would tallowing an insole in a cement down shoe cause the cement not to hold? If it's OK to do it, where do you get the tallow you previosuly mentioned in another post?

Thanks!

Jenny

[dw]

Stevenson-Paxton would be a good first choice for insole shoulders especially if you want something a little lighter weight than the 11 iron I want. Do a search here on the board for the telephone number...

As for tallowing...as I mentioned, I tallow only the grainside and really don't have any problems adhereing cement to the flesh side.

Tallow is just rendered beef or sheep fat. You could render your own http://www.eaudrey.com/tallow.htm
...or maybe buy a small quantity from http://www.welch-holme-clark.com/edible_beef_tallow_spec.html

Hope this helps

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[dw]

ps tallow is often used in candlemaking...and a google search can result in a number of sources

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[big_larry]

Jenny, with all humility, after starting my 4th pair of boots since boot school, I would like to share what I came up with after experiencing the same problem of shrinking in-soles. The last pair I used worked out to my satisfaction. I cut the insole about 3/16 over size and wet them a little, that is to say I did not soak them. I tacked the insoles to the bottom of the last with the smooth side toward the foot. At this point I tapped the leather lightly with my little bent french cobblers hammer to lightly form the in-sole. I used two horse leg wraps on each last and bound them like a mummy using the elastic to pressure the leather. I then used my dumpy little hammer and gave the leather a little more tapping to make sure it was seated on the last. The next day I unwrapped the lasts and the in-sole was dry and formed on the last. I then trimmed the excess in-sole leather around the last to form a smooth transition from last to leather. I purchased the leg wraps on Ebay auction for less than the postage to get them shipped to me. Thewre were 30 odd entries for horse leg wraps the last time I chedked Ebay.

Now please treat me kindly if I am discussing data that every one uses and if I have missed the subject. It is only in the best spirit of trying to help that I am posting this data. I do not want to be the "New guy know-it-all." Thank you for all the sharring you have done and I really appreciate all thoise who have given information that is helping me. Thank you Larry Peterson

[jenny_fleishman]

Thanks, Larry! Sounds like a very creative solution. I think there is a saying that ignorance is the mother of invention. Not knowing the tried and true way to do things, people sometimes come up with unusual and occasionally effective ways to solve problems. And often, they also come up with unusual and INeffective ways to solve problems...I have found from my own personal experience!

Jenny