Jenny,
Consistent with the Golding quote, tempering the insole (or any other component) is almost always a predicate to shaping. In the case of the insole, we cut it over-large and tack it closely to the bottom of the last. Some even use long brads and tack the insole to the sides of the last after forming it to the bottom. This augments the shaping of the insole.
After it has dried thoroughly, it is trimmed to the featherline. Again, the object is to mold the insole to the bottom of the last and so accellerate the process of forming a footbed.
I temper outsoles and heel stiffeners but I usually put the insoles on the last sopping wet. I might do it differently if I were using wooden lasts that would absorb the surplus moisture, however.
Hope that helps some...I know I probably didn't address all your questions.
Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member
Insole leather
-
gordy
Re: Insole leather
DWFI wrote: "Consistent with the Golding quote, tempering the insole (or any other component) is almost always a predicate to shaping. "
Golding also states "They must be strained at certain points of application,
and in a heel-to-toe direction with a slight transverse
tendency.
The tension set up should cause the innersoles to fit close
to the bottom of the last, and impart to them the property of
'draft.'"
Some questions if I may:
1)What is 'draft' in this context? and why would I want it?
2)Do you do it?
Cheers
Gordon
Golding also states "They must be strained at certain points of application,
and in a heel-to-toe direction with a slight transverse
tendency.
The tension set up should cause the innersoles to fit close
to the bottom of the last, and impart to them the property of
'draft.'"
Some questions if I may:
1)What is 'draft' in this context? and why would I want it?
2)Do you do it?
Cheers
Gordon
-
ttex
Re: Insole leather
Jenny
Some of your questions have been answered so I thought I would take one to. You asked about using a hammer. If you hit wet leather with a hammer you will compact it and harden it. I do this with the counter sometimes. When at work I put the last in the press with the insole tacked on in three places. If the pressure is turned up very high the sole can loose some of its thickness, even more if you use blocking fluid on it. At home I use a staple gun and let it dry. Be carefull not to tack the insole where you are going to cut it to shape.
About the hammer part. The trick is not to break the leather down but harden it. This is also done with a leather heel. The layers are pegged every other or third layer and the whole stack is held together with nails. When I do this the heel is compacted when I beat the heel down to the measurement wanted. This also makes it easier to get a good finish on the heel. In short you should not need to hammer the insole. you are not trying to harden it just shape it as the others have said.
Something else to think about is the thickness of the insole. The materials use and the way they are treated have to do with what is needed. We use wooden last or astiop and there are no problems with water damage to the last.
Lunch calls
CW
Some of your questions have been answered so I thought I would take one to. You asked about using a hammer. If you hit wet leather with a hammer you will compact it and harden it. I do this with the counter sometimes. When at work I put the last in the press with the insole tacked on in three places. If the pressure is turned up very high the sole can loose some of its thickness, even more if you use blocking fluid on it. At home I use a staple gun and let it dry. Be carefull not to tack the insole where you are going to cut it to shape.
About the hammer part. The trick is not to break the leather down but harden it. This is also done with a leather heel. The layers are pegged every other or third layer and the whole stack is held together with nails. When I do this the heel is compacted when I beat the heel down to the measurement wanted. This also makes it easier to get a good finish on the heel. In short you should not need to hammer the insole. you are not trying to harden it just shape it as the others have said.
Something else to think about is the thickness of the insole. The materials use and the way they are treated have to do with what is needed. We use wooden last or astiop and there are no problems with water damage to the last.
Lunch calls
CW
-
dw
- Seanchaidh
- Posts: 5830
- Joined: Wed Jan 01, 1997 10:00 am
- Full Name: DWFII
- Location: Redmond, OR
- Has Liked: 204 times
- Been Liked: 122 times
- Contact:
Re: Insole leather
Gordon,
I have to say that I am not sure what "draft" means in this context. Draft usually means a pull or perhaps a "shaping of"...such as "drafting the pattern." It is possible that Golding is talking about the way in which the insole is shaped to the bottom of the last during this process. No other explanation...no other aspect of the process...is left.
During my career I have had more than a few chances to tear well worn boots apart and observe the results of such wear. One of the things that I have noticed over and over again, even with the most expensive boots (and shoes) is that over time the insole will shrink. It is impossible to replace an insole in a shoe or boot using the old one as a template. The old insole, and hence any copy of it, will be at least an eighth of an inch smaller all around the perimeter...and more likely a quarter inch.
I have seen good shoemakers stretch a tempered insole on the last. But it is not something I do. My reasoning is as follows...
One) I don't think that encouraging an insole to shrink during its life is good. Leather is a somewhat "plastic" material. If you stretch it, it has a natural tendency to want to return to it's natural size and shape.
Two) If all other shoemakers in the world (except me) are stretching their insoles then the obvious and demonstrable result is a minor fiasco--shrinkage and the concomitant lost of the original size and shape. If, as I believe, this is a technique that is probably lost to all but the most traditionally trained makers and, in actuality, most makers are *not* stretching their insoles, then stretching an insole will compound the problems of shrinkage by an order of magnitude...not a pretty sight I would imagine.
Three) I think that stretching an insole was probably a good idea 300 years ago but the leather was surely a little different in temper then than it is now. The literature tells us that most shoemakers were "hammer jacking" their outsoles simply to obtain a leather firm enough for wear...nevermind the extraordinary, board-like hardness that we can and, in this shop, do try to impart to heel lifts. The "lap iron" is a relic of those times. My thought is that the leather needed to be stretched and firmed up then in a way that it may not now. In anycase, I don't do it and I've never seen a detriment to not having done it.
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
I have to say that I am not sure what "draft" means in this context. Draft usually means a pull or perhaps a "shaping of"...such as "drafting the pattern." It is possible that Golding is talking about the way in which the insole is shaped to the bottom of the last during this process. No other explanation...no other aspect of the process...is left.
During my career I have had more than a few chances to tear well worn boots apart and observe the results of such wear. One of the things that I have noticed over and over again, even with the most expensive boots (and shoes) is that over time the insole will shrink. It is impossible to replace an insole in a shoe or boot using the old one as a template. The old insole, and hence any copy of it, will be at least an eighth of an inch smaller all around the perimeter...and more likely a quarter inch.
I have seen good shoemakers stretch a tempered insole on the last. But it is not something I do. My reasoning is as follows...
One) I don't think that encouraging an insole to shrink during its life is good. Leather is a somewhat "plastic" material. If you stretch it, it has a natural tendency to want to return to it's natural size and shape.
Two) If all other shoemakers in the world (except me) are stretching their insoles then the obvious and demonstrable result is a minor fiasco--shrinkage and the concomitant lost of the original size and shape. If, as I believe, this is a technique that is probably lost to all but the most traditionally trained makers and, in actuality, most makers are *not* stretching their insoles, then stretching an insole will compound the problems of shrinkage by an order of magnitude...not a pretty sight I would imagine.
Three) I think that stretching an insole was probably a good idea 300 years ago but the leather was surely a little different in temper then than it is now. The literature tells us that most shoemakers were "hammer jacking" their outsoles simply to obtain a leather firm enough for wear...nevermind the extraordinary, board-like hardness that we can and, in this shop, do try to impart to heel lifts. The "lap iron" is a relic of those times. My thought is that the leather needed to be stretched and firmed up then in a way that it may not now. In anycase, I don't do it and I've never seen a detriment to not having done it.
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
-
jenny_fleishman
- 7
- Posts: 514
- Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2005 12:00 pm
- Full Name: Jenny Fleishman
- Location: Chicago, IL, USA
- Been Liked: 2 times
Re: Insole leather
Thanks, all. Does wetting the insole leather also get some of the shrinkage out of it?
What kind of knife do you use to trim the insole leather after it is dry?
Jenny
What kind of knife do you use to trim the insole leather after it is dry?
Jenny
-
dw
- Seanchaidh
- Posts: 5830
- Joined: Wed Jan 01, 1997 10:00 am
- Full Name: DWFII
- Location: Redmond, OR
- Has Liked: 204 times
- Been Liked: 122 times
- Contact:
Re: Insole leather
Continuing the conversation regarding hammering hardening ("hammer jacking" ) leather...
Hammering wet soling leather will have almost no effect, in my experience. The leather must be *"tempered"* to be hardened. Although some might argue that this is simply a matter of semantics, "tempered" is, in my opinion, a very different state than "wet." The leather must come back to natural colour although it will still be slightly cool to the touch and it must have been wet so thoroughly that during the tempering process (sometimes called "mulling" ) that moisture gets distributed fairly evenly throughout the piece. I think that a careful reading of the Golding quote only reinforces that perspective.
In our shop we either hammer jack heel layers, or put them through a roller, compressing them to such a degree that the best pieces are literally as hard as wood. They become very hard to cut even with the sharpest knife and have little or no residual movement or resiliency or compression (or stretch) remaining. For us, and our approach at least, it is not possible to beat the heel to a smaller height...which, of course, is one of the great advantages to hammer jacking heel lifts in the first place--when a heel is built of them, it will not distort or compress during wear. Especially at higher heel heights this can be a significant factor.
The other advantage of hammer jacking heel lifts is that the resulting heel stack becomes more impervious to water. When those fibers in the leather are compressed ...squeezed together...the result is that there are fewer "interstices' or microscopic spaces between the fibers. So there is nowhere for water to go...no holes into the interior.
And as Chris suggested, the third advantage is that the heel stack will burnish and finish up better than an open fibered stack.
Finally...wetting the leather, by itself, does not take stretch out of it; tempering it does not take stretch out of it...wetting and tempering only makes it more amenable to stretching or compressing or moulding or whatever.
As for knives...a sharp knife is best!
Some use a shoemakers knife, some use a lip knife (I do), some even use a Tina skiving type knife.
I hope this helps and adds something useful to the discussion...
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
Hammering wet soling leather will have almost no effect, in my experience. The leather must be *"tempered"* to be hardened. Although some might argue that this is simply a matter of semantics, "tempered" is, in my opinion, a very different state than "wet." The leather must come back to natural colour although it will still be slightly cool to the touch and it must have been wet so thoroughly that during the tempering process (sometimes called "mulling" ) that moisture gets distributed fairly evenly throughout the piece. I think that a careful reading of the Golding quote only reinforces that perspective.
In our shop we either hammer jack heel layers, or put them through a roller, compressing them to such a degree that the best pieces are literally as hard as wood. They become very hard to cut even with the sharpest knife and have little or no residual movement or resiliency or compression (or stretch) remaining. For us, and our approach at least, it is not possible to beat the heel to a smaller height...which, of course, is one of the great advantages to hammer jacking heel lifts in the first place--when a heel is built of them, it will not distort or compress during wear. Especially at higher heel heights this can be a significant factor.
The other advantage of hammer jacking heel lifts is that the resulting heel stack becomes more impervious to water. When those fibers in the leather are compressed ...squeezed together...the result is that there are fewer "interstices' or microscopic spaces between the fibers. So there is nowhere for water to go...no holes into the interior.
And as Chris suggested, the third advantage is that the heel stack will burnish and finish up better than an open fibered stack.
Finally...wetting the leather, by itself, does not take stretch out of it; tempering it does not take stretch out of it...wetting and tempering only makes it more amenable to stretching or compressing or moulding or whatever.
As for knives...a sharp knife is best!
Some use a shoemakers knife, some use a lip knife (I do), some even use a Tina skiving type knife. I hope this helps and adds something useful to the discussion...
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
-
jenny_fleishman
- 7
- Posts: 514
- Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2005 12:00 pm
- Full Name: Jenny Fleishman
- Location: Chicago, IL, USA
- Been Liked: 2 times
Re: Insole leather
DW, can you clarify what hammer jacking heel lifts is, exactly? Is it just putting it on a marble slab and hammering the heck out of it? (I'm hoping 
)
I believe a previous mention was made that it is possible to damage the leather by hammering it too hard. How do you know when you are hammering too hard?
When making the counter and toe stiffener for my fitter shoe, I tacked them on the last wet (although not properly tempered, I'm afraid), and hammered them to make them conform to the shape of the last.
Jenny
) I believe a previous mention was made that it is possible to damage the leather by hammering it too hard. How do you know when you are hammering too hard?
When making the counter and toe stiffener for my fitter shoe, I tacked them on the last wet (although not properly tempered, I'm afraid), and hammered them to make them conform to the shape of the last.
Jenny
-
gordy
Re: Insole leather
DW wrote: "...My thought is that the leather needed to be stretched and firmed up then in a way that it may not now. In anycase, I don't do it and I've never seen a detriment to not having done it. "
Thanks for the extended thoughts. I couldn't see any reason for it unless the insole was apt to spread with wear but your experience seems to be quite the opposite.
Good enough for me.
Cheers
Gordon
Thanks for the extended thoughts. I couldn't see any reason for it unless the insole was apt to spread with wear but your experience seems to be quite the opposite.
Good enough for me.
Cheers
Gordon
-
dw
- Seanchaidh
- Posts: 5830
- Joined: Wed Jan 01, 1997 10:00 am
- Full Name: DWFII
- Location: Redmond, OR
- Has Liked: 204 times
- Been Liked: 122 times
- Contact:
Re: Insole leather
Jenny,
"Hammer jacking," as I know it, is letting a rough cut heel layer dry back to temper and them hammering it against a piece of steel...or perhaps a piece of marble would do...to compress the fibers and harden the lift. Hammering starts in the center of the piece of leather and proceeds in evenly spaced and overlapping strikes until the whole piece has been jacked. Again, the leather has to be thoroughly wet and then allowed to dry back to the original colour. This state is a little short of completely dry and the leather will usually be cool to the touch--from evaporating moisture.
Yes, you can damage the leather by hitting it too hard. That said, I use a ten (?) lb. sledge hammer to jack lifts. I don't swing with all my might but a heavy blow is delivered. If the grain surface of the leather (usually roughed up but not ground away) is cracking from the force of the blow you are hitting he leather too hard. This is in the same category as cutting patterns on a table top...where you must cut through all layers in one pass--if you feel a "scratching" on the top of your foot, you are obviously pushing too hard on the knife.
I also have an old, certifiably antique, sole rolling machine (sometime erroneously called a "tug roller" ) which I use to jack or harden lifts. I actually use this more than the hammer anymore.
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
"Hammer jacking," as I know it, is letting a rough cut heel layer dry back to temper and them hammering it against a piece of steel...or perhaps a piece of marble would do...to compress the fibers and harden the lift. Hammering starts in the center of the piece of leather and proceeds in evenly spaced and overlapping strikes until the whole piece has been jacked. Again, the leather has to be thoroughly wet and then allowed to dry back to the original colour. This state is a little short of completely dry and the leather will usually be cool to the touch--from evaporating moisture.
Yes, you can damage the leather by hitting it too hard. That said, I use a ten (?) lb. sledge hammer to jack lifts. I don't swing with all my might but a heavy blow is delivered. If the grain surface of the leather (usually roughed up but not ground away) is cracking from the force of the blow you are hitting he leather too hard. This is in the same category as cutting patterns on a table top...where you must cut through all layers in one pass--if you feel a "scratching" on the top of your foot, you are obviously pushing too hard on the knife.
I also have an old, certifiably antique, sole rolling machine (sometime erroneously called a "tug roller" ) which I use to jack or harden lifts. I actually use this more than the hammer anymore.
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
-
dw
- Seanchaidh
- Posts: 5830
- Joined: Wed Jan 01, 1997 10:00 am
- Full Name: DWFII
- Location: Redmond, OR
- Has Liked: 204 times
- Been Liked: 122 times
- Contact:
Re: Insole leather
Gordon,
Never say that!! I am being kind and gentle but giving you some important advice. Soon you'll be saying "Well, it was good enough for my father..." etc. And with each repetition your chances for real understanding, and the possibility for the kind of growth that understanding brings, will be lessened.
I may have good, clear, rational reasons for my choices (I hope I do). I may have three plus decades of experience and a lifetime of enthusiastic and deliberate study from which I propound my theories and rationales, but until you verify them for yourself, they must be just theories and guidelines. An aid to learning and a leg up on all the rest of us who learned some part of what we know by trial and error...mostly error...but **never**, ever, written in stone.
Things change, materials change, and the bottom line is that on any given day and on any given subject, I might be full of "schist" ("Any metamorphic rock that can be split into thin layers.")
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
Good enough for me.
Never say that!! I am being kind and gentle but giving you some important advice. Soon you'll be saying "Well, it was good enough for my father..." etc. And with each repetition your chances for real understanding, and the possibility for the kind of growth that understanding brings, will be lessened.
I may have good, clear, rational reasons for my choices (I hope I do). I may have three plus decades of experience and a lifetime of enthusiastic and deliberate study from which I propound my theories and rationales, but until you verify them for yourself, they must be just theories and guidelines. An aid to learning and a leg up on all the rest of us who learned some part of what we know by trial and error...mostly error...but **never**, ever, written in stone.
Things change, materials change, and the bottom line is that on any given day and on any given subject, I might be full of "schist" ("Any metamorphic rock that can be split into thin layers."
) Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
-
bjohnsonleather
- 1
- Posts: 49
- Joined: Thu Oct 29, 2009 9:00 am
- Full Name: Bruce Johnson
- Location: Oakdale, California, United States
- Contact:
Re: Insole leather
DW,
Thank you for the description of hammer jacking. Although the terms are a bit different than my saddlemaking,(casing = tempering?), I am getting up to speed here. I have been pounding my cased horn cap fillers on the marble with a shoe hammer to firm them up. Now I'm thinking shaping hammer on the shoeing anvil.
Regarding your comments on "good enough". An old man, who are generally wise. told me this several years ago. If you have to use good and enough together, it is never your best, and never enough. Have a good one, -
Bruce
Thank you for the description of hammer jacking. Although the terms are a bit different than my saddlemaking,(casing = tempering?), I am getting up to speed here. I have been pounding my cased horn cap fillers on the marble with a shoe hammer to firm them up. Now I'm thinking shaping hammer on the shoeing anvil.
Regarding your comments on "good enough". An old man, who are generally wise. told me this several years ago. If you have to use good and enough together, it is never your best, and never enough. Have a good one, -
Bruce
-
dw
- Seanchaidh
- Posts: 5830
- Joined: Wed Jan 01, 1997 10:00 am
- Full Name: DWFII
- Location: Redmond, OR
- Has Liked: 204 times
- Been Liked: 122 times
- Contact:
Re: Insole leather
I have to correct myself regarding the sledge hammer. I got to thinking "10 lbs."seems a bit heavy. So I went out to the shop and checked--3 lbs.
All of which underscores the point I was making above...not only are my words *not* written in stone but no matter who says it, don't take anything for granite, if you do you're bound to lose your chert. [img]http://www.thehcc.org/forum/images/old_smilies/proud.gif"%20ALT=":O[/img]
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
All of which underscores the point I was making above...not only are my words *not* written in stone but no matter who says it, don't take anything for granite, if you do you're bound to lose your chert. [img]http://www.thehcc.org/forum/images/old_smilies/proud.gif"%20ALT=":O[/img]
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
-
tomo
Re: Insole leather
DW,
Theory is, you can have a heavy hammer and wack something once or twice, this requires great effort for a short time, or you can use a lighter hammer and give it more wacks, but with either method you get greater benefit by 'holding the blow' as my ol' dad says - he served his time as a Boiler maker in the days when ships were riveted together...
There was a strongman at the circus once, this guy's best stunt was to lay on a bed of nails with two concrete slabs on his chest. Then they'd get some turkey from the audience to try and hit the the slabs with a sledge hammer. On this day however, they picked the wrong turkey. Dad whispered 'watch this' as he went up on stage. Two smacks with the hammer and dad had busted both slabs and was lining up for the big one, when the assistant rushed over and pulled the hammer from dad's hands. And the strong man, well he was wheezing all the way to the end.
Also don't you get gold from schist??
More power to y'awl.
T.
(Message edited by Tomo on June 01, 2006)
(Message edited by Tomo on June 01, 2006)
Theory is, you can have a heavy hammer and wack something once or twice, this requires great effort for a short time, or you can use a lighter hammer and give it more wacks, but with either method you get greater benefit by 'holding the blow' as my ol' dad says - he served his time as a Boiler maker in the days when ships were riveted together...
There was a strongman at the circus once, this guy's best stunt was to lay on a bed of nails with two concrete slabs on his chest. Then they'd get some turkey from the audience to try and hit the the slabs with a sledge hammer. On this day however, they picked the wrong turkey. Dad whispered 'watch this' as he went up on stage. Two smacks with the hammer and dad had busted both slabs and was lining up for the big one, when the assistant rushed over and pulled the hammer from dad's hands. And the strong man, well he was wheezing all the way to the end
. Also don't you get gold from schist??
More power to y'awl.
T.
(Message edited by Tomo on June 01, 2006)
(Message edited by Tomo on June 01, 2006)
-
gordy
Re: Insole leather
DW Wrote: "I may have good, clear, rational reasons for my choices (I hope I do)."
Which were good enough for me - for now
Don't worry, I keep an open mind.
Gordon
Which were good enough for me - for now
Don't worry, I keep an open mind.
Gordon
-
dw
- Seanchaidh
- Posts: 5830
- Joined: Wed Jan 01, 1997 10:00 am
- Full Name: DWFII
- Location: Redmond, OR
- Has Liked: 204 times
- Been Liked: 122 times
- Contact:
Re: Insole leather
Tom,
I don't know how your dad would feel about this, but I generally don't actually swing the hammer much. I sort of let it drop...maybe adding just a little downward pressure...and when it hits the leather and the blow reverberates through to the steel underneath (part of an old railroad rail) I get sort of a "bounce-back" which helps me bring the sledge up again. It's kind of neat the way that works...saves energy...but if you're hammer jacking out fifty pairs of rough cut lifts it's still tiring. That's why I use the roller.
Gold?? Maybe...and rubies or garnets from granite. Arrowheads from chert.
Gordon,
I know...and I appreciate the respect and honour you do me...I just felt I needed to be sure nobody was taking it as gospel.
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
I don't know how your dad would feel about this, but I generally don't actually swing the hammer much. I sort of let it drop...maybe adding just a little downward pressure...and when it hits the leather and the blow reverberates through to the steel underneath (part of an old railroad rail) I get sort of a "bounce-back" which helps me bring the sledge up again. It's kind of neat the way that works...saves energy...but if you're hammer jacking out fifty pairs of rough cut lifts it's still tiring. That's why I use the roller.
Gold?
? Maybe...and rubies or garnets from granite. Arrowheads from chert. Gordon,
I know...and I appreciate the respect and honour you do me...I just felt I needed to be sure nobody was taking it as gospel.
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
-
jenny_fleishman
- 7
- Posts: 514
- Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2005 12:00 pm
- Full Name: Jenny Fleishman
- Location: Chicago, IL, USA
- Been Liked: 2 times
-
dw
- Seanchaidh
- Posts: 5830
- Joined: Wed Jan 01, 1997 10:00 am
- Full Name: DWFII
- Location: Redmond, OR
- Has Liked: 204 times
- Been Liked: 122 times
- Contact:
Re: Insole leather
Jenny,
One quick point in passing...one of the reasons I put my insoles on wet rather than tempered is that I don't want to harden them in any way, not even from incidental hammering of tacks. I want that insole to be open and "fluffy" so that it can develop a footbed as soon as possible after it is first put on.
Don't hammer jack your insoles...
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
One quick point in passing...one of the reasons I put my insoles on wet rather than tempered is that I don't want to harden them in any way, not even from incidental hammering of tacks. I want that insole to be open and "fluffy" so that it can develop a footbed as soon as possible after it is first put on.
Don't hammer jack your insoles...
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
-
jenny_fleishman
- 7
- Posts: 514
- Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2005 12:00 pm
- Full Name: Jenny Fleishman
- Location: Chicago, IL, USA
- Been Liked: 2 times
Re: Insole leather
DW, now you did it! You confused me, and here come the 20 questions! 
Wet vs tempered: I thought tempered meant the leather used to be wet, but now is almost dry, but not quite. Did I misunderstand what tempering is, because I didn't expect it to result in the leather becoming harder?
I thought the only purpose of putting the insole on wet was so it would conform to the bottom of the last better. Does it somehow affect the hardness of the leather?
Do you only put a few tacks down the center of the insole?
Do you last the upper while the insole is still wet?
How does hammering tacks harden the leather? How does it differ if the leather is wet, dry, or tempered?
Sorry if my questions are somewhat overlapping or redundant!
Thanks for your patience in explaining things!
Wet vs tempered: I thought tempered meant the leather used to be wet, but now is almost dry, but not quite. Did I misunderstand what tempering is, because I didn't expect it to result in the leather becoming harder?
I thought the only purpose of putting the insole on wet was so it would conform to the bottom of the last better. Does it somehow affect the hardness of the leather?
Do you only put a few tacks down the center of the insole?
Do you last the upper while the insole is still wet?
How does hammering tacks harden the leather? How does it differ if the leather is wet, dry, or tempered?
Sorry if my questions are somewhat overlapping or redundant!
Thanks for your patience in explaining things!
-
dw
- Seanchaidh
- Posts: 5830
- Joined: Wed Jan 01, 1997 10:00 am
- Full Name: DWFII
- Location: Redmond, OR
- Has Liked: 204 times
- Been Liked: 122 times
- Contact:
Re: Insole leather
Jenny,
Sorry to confuse you.
Tempering is indeed as you describe it. Tempering by itself will not harden the leather, but hammering a tempered insole into the hollows and contours of the bottom of the last will harden tempered leather. Hammering wet leather will not. Hammering a tack into a tempered insole might harden it if your hammer face is larger than the tack and/or your strike hits more leather than tack. Since I tack at roughly three-quarter inch intervals around the perimeter of the last...ie., the featherline...there is a lot of opportunity for wayward strikes to the insole. Hammering tacks into a wet insole will not harden the leather even if you miss the tack...countless times.
I tack down the center of the insole as well as around the edge...as mentioned above..
I do not last while the insole is wet and hopefully not while it is anywhere near the tempered state, either. I like the insole dry when I last.
Does that help?
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
Sorry to confuse you.
Tempering is indeed as you describe it. Tempering by itself will not harden the leather, but hammering a tempered insole into the hollows and contours of the bottom of the last will harden tempered leather. Hammering wet leather will not. Hammering a tack into a tempered insole might harden it if your hammer face is larger than the tack and/or your strike hits more leather than tack. Since I tack at roughly three-quarter inch intervals around the perimeter of the last...ie., the featherline...there is a lot of opportunity for wayward strikes to the insole. Hammering tacks into a wet insole will not harden the leather even if you miss the tack...countless times.
I tack down the center of the insole as well as around the edge...as mentioned above..
I do not last while the insole is wet and hopefully not while it is anywhere near the tempered state, either. I like the insole dry when I last.
Does that help?
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
-
jenny_fleishman
- 7
- Posts: 514
- Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2005 12:00 pm
- Full Name: Jenny Fleishman
- Location: Chicago, IL, USA
- Been Liked: 2 times
Re: Insole leather
DW, yes, that helps! As the insole dries, I gather it does not shrink (or you would not tack around the edges?)...
Jenny
Jenny
-
dw
- Seanchaidh
- Posts: 5830
- Joined: Wed Jan 01, 1997 10:00 am
- Full Name: DWFII
- Location: Redmond, OR
- Has Liked: 204 times
- Been Liked: 122 times
- Contact:
Re: Insole leather
Jenny,
It will shrink...that's exactly why we do tack it all around. Some, taking that shrinkage into account, actually wrap their insoles in gauze to make them conform to the bottom of the last and just let the shrinkage happen. Not a bad idea theoretically, but it slows drying and that encourages mold. Not good.
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
It will shrink...that's exactly why we do tack it all around. Some, taking that shrinkage into account, actually wrap their insoles in gauze to make them conform to the bottom of the last and just let the shrinkage happen. Not a bad idea theoretically, but it slows drying and that encourages mold. Not good.
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
-
jenny_fleishman
- 7
- Posts: 514
- Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2005 12:00 pm
- Full Name: Jenny Fleishman
- Location: Chicago, IL, USA
- Been Liked: 2 times
Re: Insole leather
DW, if you tack it around the edges so it can't shrink, might this be why it shrinks later during the life if the shoe? Does the insole getting wet during wear of the shoe also encourage shrinkage?
Might this work?--What about wetting the cut insole and letting it dry completely without putting it on the last, to let it shrink. Then, wet it a second time and tack it onto the last?
Jenny
Might this work?--What about wetting the cut insole and letting it dry completely without putting it on the last, to let it shrink. Then, wet it a second time and tack it onto the last?
Jenny
-
dw
- Seanchaidh
- Posts: 5830
- Joined: Wed Jan 01, 1997 10:00 am
- Full Name: DWFII
- Location: Redmond, OR
- Has Liked: 204 times
- Been Liked: 122 times
- Contact:
Re: Insole leather
Jenny,
You're thinking and that's always good.
IMO, the tacking itself doesn't have anything to do with shrinking...in the short run or long term. Wetting the insole might. Deliberately stretching the insole while wet and while tacking it to the last almost certainly does.
As for wetting it and letting it dry and then wetting it again...I think that's a blind alley. Leather is tanned in fluids...most of which is water. It has probably been wet and been allowed to dry in a relaxed state several times before it ever gets to you.
What I think is happening is that the water swells the leather up. You can see that if you take note of the thickness of an insole before you wet it and again after it has been in the water. I would bet money that if you were to outline an insole (rough cut or otherwise) before soaking and after, the "after" would be larger.
As for longtime shrinkage...I think this is due as much to loss of oils and fats as to anything else. But remember that the inside of a shoe is a jungle--heat, salt, bacteria...the only thing missing is the monkey calls. But beyond that, if the foot creates a footbed of any depth in the insole...those contours...both up and down...have to come from somewhere--there's no new leather being added to the insole. IMO, these two factors account for the shrinkage that occurs with wear.
BTW, I am not saying that this little bit of shrinkage is bad to the point of concern. As long as the shoe retains its integrity--has not been torn completely apart--no one will be the wiser...certainly not the wearer.
What I am saying is that stretching a wet insole may increase that shrinkage to the point where it very well might become a concern.
Having said that, one of the best shoemakers I know...and someone I respect and admire on every level...stretches his insoles---in all directions! But this is the way he was trained, and this is the way the Elder Shoe Gods have told us to do it in the Elder Shoe Scrolls. And if he has any concerns with shrinkage, I have never heard them from him. So...go figure. There's room for everybody on this bus.
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
You're thinking and that's always good.
IMO, the tacking itself doesn't have anything to do with shrinking...in the short run or long term. Wetting the insole might. Deliberately stretching the insole while wet and while tacking it to the last almost certainly does.
As for wetting it and letting it dry and then wetting it again...I think that's a blind alley. Leather is tanned in fluids...most of which is water. It has probably been wet and been allowed to dry in a relaxed state several times before it ever gets to you.
What I think is happening is that the water swells the leather up. You can see that if you take note of the thickness of an insole before you wet it and again after it has been in the water. I would bet money that if you were to outline an insole (rough cut or otherwise) before soaking and after, the "after" would be larger.
As for longtime shrinkage...I think this is due as much to loss of oils and fats as to anything else. But remember that the inside of a shoe is a jungle--heat, salt, bacteria...the only thing missing is the monkey calls. But beyond that, if the foot creates a footbed of any depth in the insole...those contours...both up and down...have to come from somewhere--there's no new leather being added to the insole. IMO, these two factors account for the shrinkage that occurs with wear.
BTW, I am not saying that this little bit of shrinkage is bad to the point of concern. As long as the shoe retains its integrity--has not been torn completely apart--no one will be the wiser...certainly not the wearer.
What I am saying is that stretching a wet insole may increase that shrinkage to the point where it very well might become a concern.
Having said that, one of the best shoemakers I know...and someone I respect and admire on every level...stretches his insoles---in all directions! But this is the way he was trained, and this is the way the Elder Shoe Gods have told us to do it in the Elder Shoe Scrolls. And if he has any concerns with shrinkage, I have never heard them from him. So...go figure. There's room for everybody on this bus.
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
-
gordy
Re: Insole leather
DW wrote: "Having said that, one of the best shoemakers I know...and someone I
respect and admire on every level...stretches his insoles---in all
directions![...]
I've no pactical experience but in theory - if your inseam stitching is good and tight and close to the edge you'd be unlikely to see much evidence of shrinking. If the outseam is good and solid the most likely evidence would be (given that the welt won't stretch - much) a more pronounced curvature of the sole - assuming the sole doesn't shrink at the same rate.
Gordon
respect and admire on every level...stretches his insoles---in all
directions![...]
I've no pactical experience but in theory - if your inseam stitching is good and tight and close to the edge you'd be unlikely to see much evidence of shrinking. If the outseam is good and solid the most likely evidence would be (given that the welt won't stretch - much) a more pronounced curvature of the sole - assuming the sole doesn't shrink at the same rate.
Gordon
-
ttex
Re: Insole leather
Jenny and DW
DW hit on something that is used here on this side of the ocean. We use alot of RB counters and insoles. After the counter has been in a bag/newspaper over night we stretch it over the edge of the glass to get it over with. It's a good way to avoid it growing and loosing it's form if the shoe get very! wet. After that we shive it.
We don't do this with the insole. You are goig to have to tack the insole around the edge to help it mimic the form of the last. I don't think you have a press. Do you Jenny?
About the shrinkage- sweat is one of the causes. Sweat has salt and you know what salt does. It's easy to see if you have a customer that "burn" his sole up because of a foot sweat problem. Jakob, My former master has a customer that goes through shoes like you wouldn't believe because of it.
Food calls
CW
DW hit on something that is used here on this side of the ocean. We use alot of RB counters and insoles. After the counter has been in a bag/newspaper over night we stretch it over the edge of the glass to get it over with. It's a good way to avoid it growing and loosing it's form if the shoe get very! wet. After that we shive it.
We don't do this with the insole. You are goig to have to tack the insole around the edge to help it mimic the form of the last. I don't think you have a press. Do you Jenny?
About the shrinkage- sweat is one of the causes. Sweat has salt and you know what salt does. It's easy to see if you have a customer that "burn" his sole up because of a foot sweat problem. Jakob, My former master has a customer that goes through shoes like you wouldn't believe because of it.
Food calls
CW