I would just like to add a little post here, from my experience with skirting for insoles.
I made a friend a pair of boots to experiment with some differant ideas. One was to use skirting for the insoles. My friend is a ranch manager and rides for a living. He does not wear over shoes when working a horseback or in the corrals. It is evident by the looks of his boots, which are in the shop now for soling.
I used Muir and Mcdonald skirting from a friend of mine. The insoles have not stretched out of shape and there is no excessive impression for a foorbed. His only complaint has been that they were a little tight when I made them and they still are. Going on 6 years old.
Kevin
Insole leather
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dw
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Re: Insole leather
Kevin,
Gosh, it's good to hear from you!!!
Well, that's sure good news. If the Muir and McDonald was relatively recent...let's see, when did old Eldon turn it over to his daughter?...6 years ago?...eight?...then it must be a quebacho tannage and that's makes it well worth looking into. Especially since Hermann Oak is just about the most expensive skirting out there.
What weight did you use, BTW?
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
Gosh, it's good to hear from you!!!
Well, that's sure good news. If the Muir and McDonald was relatively recent...let's see, when did old Eldon turn it over to his daughter?...6 years ago?...eight?...then it must be a quebacho tannage and that's makes it well worth looking into. Especially since Hermann Oak is just about the most expensive skirting out there.
What weight did you use, BTW?
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
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das
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Re: Insole leather
Roy,
Dickens Brothers w-calf is better than Kellett's in that it's consistent, and really kip. Towards the end Dennis was having a hard time getting E.I. kips, switched to water buffalo, then started using various top-grain cowhide splits. It seemed like every shipment was different, and his black dye bled through to the grain on some pieces. I've only gotten three Dicken's sides so far to test, but so far, so good.
We've got three pair of shoes in Dicken's Bros. w-calf being closed right now. I'm cutting boots from it in the next week or two. I'll LYK how it crimps and wears later.
DW--You might want to move some of this chat over under 'Great Leather' or 'Waxed Calf' threads? Sorry, I don't know how to do that.
Dickens Brothers w-calf is better than Kellett's in that it's consistent, and really kip. Towards the end Dennis was having a hard time getting E.I. kips, switched to water buffalo, then started using various top-grain cowhide splits. It seemed like every shipment was different, and his black dye bled through to the grain on some pieces. I've only gotten three Dicken's sides so far to test, but so far, so good.
We've got three pair of shoes in Dicken's Bros. w-calf being closed right now. I'm cutting boots from it in the next week or two. I'll LYK how it crimps and wears later.
DW--You might want to move some of this chat over under 'Great Leather' or 'Waxed Calf' threads? Sorry, I don't know how to do that.
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Kevin Eisele
Re: Insole leather
DW, Nice to be back.
The daughter and son in law had taken over at the time I used the skirting for the insoles.
I believe the weight was 14/16 oz. Since we were building some heavy duty working saddles at the time.
Kevin
The daughter and son in law had taken over at the time I used the skirting for the insoles.
I believe the weight was 14/16 oz. Since we were building some heavy duty working saddles at the time.
Kevin
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Lisa Cresson
Re: Insole leather
JR Redenbach sole bends in 11/12 and 13/14 are available at an unknown price per pound in NYC at Kaufmans; ask for Mike; 212-777-1700. Some of the better shoemakers like TrueFit on Third Ave or others in NYC upgrade from the JR pre-cuts. I was given a price for one bend that was spoken for an 11/12 for $125.
They close early at 2PM NY time and it takes three weeks to three monhts or so to arrive from Germany; depending on if the order is just going in or you just missed being added to the next order.
Regards,
Lisa
They close early at 2PM NY time and it takes three weeks to three monhts or so to arrive from Germany; depending on if the order is just going in or you just missed being added to the next order.
Regards,
Lisa
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jenny_fleishman
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Re: Insole leather
re insole/midsole leather...I purchased a 6/7 oz. veg tan double shoulder to use for midsoles (stitchdown method), or insoles (cement method). The leather has large wrinkles in it from the animal's movements. Is this typical of shoulders (I would assume so), or are the wrinkles sometimes eliminated in the tanning process? Are the wrinkles a problem in an insole or midsole? If not, should they go from side to side, or the length of the shoe?
Also, am I correct that the midsole should be cut in the direction that gives the most flexible bend at the ball of the foot? (Before I put the leather in storage I had figured out which way that was, but I've forgotten whether I had determined the most flexible way would be perpendicular or parallel to the backbone.) Thanks.
Jenny
Also, am I correct that the midsole should be cut in the direction that gives the most flexible bend at the ball of the foot? (Before I put the leather in storage I had figured out which way that was, but I've forgotten whether I had determined the most flexible way would be perpendicular or parallel to the backbone.) Thanks.
Jenny
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das
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Re: Insole leather
Jenny,
Shoulder leather is notoriously wrinkly from, as you say, the animal's constant movements. If you like you can "snuff" or buff the grain off on the sander on your finishing line. This eliminates the appearance of most wrinkles, gives a velvety surface and keeps the foot from sliding so much [friction=blisters], and helps prevent the grain from cracking from acidic feet--some feet exude such nasty stuff that they'll crack any leather insole BTW. The fibers in that portion of the hide are preferable for insoles because they flex and are relatively supple, compared to butts and bends from the other end, where the fibers are dense and firm--making that the best outer soles.
Shoulder leather is also generally uniformly flexible in all directions, so when cutting out, I suggest you orient your sole patterns with the toes either pointing towards the head/tail, i.e, oriented lengthways parallel to the spine, and "bookmatch" them, that is cut the 1st. pair from the corners on opposite edges, then the next pair just in from that, etc., working your way across the hide in rows to the middle. You'll note some variations in thickness and density, but bookmatching and marking each pair as "1", "2", "3" etc. will help you keep both soles of the pair consistent. I use Bakers' oak bark shoulder, and depending on sizes, can usually get 8-10 pairs from one shoulder with minimal waste.
As you approach the spine from both sides, you'll notice the hide gets thicker and firmer down the middle. Do not cut an insole over, or crossing into this strip, as you'll not likely be able to pair it with another insole cut elsewhere, and it will throw your range of cutting off and waste leather. Think of the shoulder as a sheet of cookie dough, and your insole pattern as the cookie-cutter, and try to get as many insoles as you can, going like I said from opposite spots on either side to create pairs. Cut the whole shoulder up at once into generic sized insoles, rather than chopping them off as you need them. This helps minimize waste and keeps things oriented too.
Check the flesh side too. If there's lots of loose flesh remaining that's merely been slicked and pasted down, you'll want to skive that off with a long bladed knife to get down to dense fibers. Test one by tossing it into a bucket of water--if the flesh raises up in hairy fuzz, or like seaweed, you'll need to skive the backs to get rid of (just) this layer. Flex the insoles into a "U" shape, and draw the sharp knife along the apex of the "U", easily shaving off the loose fleshings.
Shoulder leather is notoriously wrinkly from, as you say, the animal's constant movements. If you like you can "snuff" or buff the grain off on the sander on your finishing line. This eliminates the appearance of most wrinkles, gives a velvety surface and keeps the foot from sliding so much [friction=blisters], and helps prevent the grain from cracking from acidic feet--some feet exude such nasty stuff that they'll crack any leather insole BTW. The fibers in that portion of the hide are preferable for insoles because they flex and are relatively supple, compared to butts and bends from the other end, where the fibers are dense and firm--making that the best outer soles.
Shoulder leather is also generally uniformly flexible in all directions, so when cutting out, I suggest you orient your sole patterns with the toes either pointing towards the head/tail, i.e, oriented lengthways parallel to the spine, and "bookmatch" them, that is cut the 1st. pair from the corners on opposite edges, then the next pair just in from that, etc., working your way across the hide in rows to the middle. You'll note some variations in thickness and density, but bookmatching and marking each pair as "1", "2", "3" etc. will help you keep both soles of the pair consistent. I use Bakers' oak bark shoulder, and depending on sizes, can usually get 8-10 pairs from one shoulder with minimal waste.
As you approach the spine from both sides, you'll notice the hide gets thicker and firmer down the middle. Do not cut an insole over, or crossing into this strip, as you'll not likely be able to pair it with another insole cut elsewhere, and it will throw your range of cutting off and waste leather. Think of the shoulder as a sheet of cookie dough, and your insole pattern as the cookie-cutter, and try to get as many insoles as you can, going like I said from opposite spots on either side to create pairs. Cut the whole shoulder up at once into generic sized insoles, rather than chopping them off as you need them. This helps minimize waste and keeps things oriented too.
Check the flesh side too. If there's lots of loose flesh remaining that's merely been slicked and pasted down, you'll want to skive that off with a long bladed knife to get down to dense fibers. Test one by tossing it into a bucket of water--if the flesh raises up in hairy fuzz, or like seaweed, you'll need to skive the backs to get rid of (just) this layer. Flex the insoles into a "U" shape, and draw the sharp knife along the apex of the "U", easily shaving off the loose fleshings.
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dw
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Re: Insole leather
Al,
Why there you are...
So how do you orient your insoles vis-a-vis the fat wrinkles? The leather I'm currently using has fat wrinkles that create a slight indent in the leather. I've been cutting the insole so that the fat wrinkles run the length of the insole on the theory that you wouldn't want a wrinkle "breaking" randomly under the foot. Your suggestion to cut the insole so that it is parallel to the backbone would seem to confirm my inclination but your's was such a good explanation I'd like to hear your thoughts on this as well.
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
Why there you are...
So how do you orient your insoles vis-a-vis the fat wrinkles? The leather I'm currently using has fat wrinkles that create a slight indent in the leather. I've been cutting the insole so that the fat wrinkles run the length of the insole on the theory that you wouldn't want a wrinkle "breaking" randomly under the foot. Your suggestion to cut the insole so that it is parallel to the backbone would seem to confirm my inclination but your's was such a good explanation I'd like to hear your thoughts on this as well.
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
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jenny_fleishman
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Re: Insole leather
Al, DW...My leather is still in "storage" (high up on a shelf in a closet), but I would think the movement wrinkles would be perpendicular to the backbone, so if you cut the insoles parallel to the spine, wouldn't the wrinkles go across the insole, rather than the length of the insole as DW prefers to cut?
Also, Al, I don't have a line finisher--not even sure exactly what that is! I'm working in my dining room. I do have some regular power tools like a belt sander and a drill (with drum sander attachments). Would any of these be usable? What exactly is a line finisher, by the way?! Thanks.
Jenny
Also, Al, I don't have a line finisher--not even sure exactly what that is! I'm working in my dining room. I do have some regular power tools like a belt sander and a drill (with drum sander attachments). Would any of these be usable? What exactly is a line finisher, by the way?! Thanks.
Jenny
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dw
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Re: Insole leather
Jenny,
No, you're right. My apologies. It was 4:30-5 AM when I wrote that and me nowhere near the leather itself. But now that you mention it I'm sure the fat wrinkles run perpendicular to the backbone. In fact, I had a vision in my head when I wrote the first post that very definitely had the wrinkles perpendicular. So somewhere between brain and keyboard something got lost in the translation.
That said, the question remains...If, as Al says, shoulders are uniformly flexible in all directions, I would think that cutting an insole such that fat wrinkles run across the bottom of the insole would create problems. When we cut lizard or elephant or even alligator, as an example, we theoretically want to cut it in such a way as to avoid having the deep creases and the "interstices" between tiles run across the foot. The theory behind this is that such creases are (1) thinner leather, (2) places where dirt and grit will accumulate and (3) when run across the foot, the natural place where the leather will flex. Now, aside from the fact that such creasing combined with the aforementioned grit will literally "cut" the leather, in the case of vamps, when leather creases in a location where it is not natural to the foot to crease, there is additional stress applied that can cause unnatural wear.
So...that's my theory...but I have no scientific evidence one way or the other and would welcome other opinions.
Maybe there is no good or final answer...except to cut for uniformity of substance and quality, but that's true of every aspect of what we do.
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
No, you're right. My apologies. It was 4:30-5 AM when I wrote that and me nowhere near the leather itself. But now that you mention it I'm sure the fat wrinkles run perpendicular to the backbone. In fact, I had a vision in my head when I wrote the first post that very definitely had the wrinkles perpendicular. So somewhere between brain and keyboard something got lost in the translation.
That said, the question remains...If, as Al says, shoulders are uniformly flexible in all directions, I would think that cutting an insole such that fat wrinkles run across the bottom of the insole would create problems. When we cut lizard or elephant or even alligator, as an example, we theoretically want to cut it in such a way as to avoid having the deep creases and the "interstices" between tiles run across the foot. The theory behind this is that such creases are (1) thinner leather, (2) places where dirt and grit will accumulate and (3) when run across the foot, the natural place where the leather will flex. Now, aside from the fact that such creasing combined with the aforementioned grit will literally "cut" the leather, in the case of vamps, when leather creases in a location where it is not natural to the foot to crease, there is additional stress applied that can cause unnatural wear.
So...that's my theory...but I have no scientific evidence one way or the other and would welcome other opinions.
Maybe there is no good or final answer...except to cut for uniformity of substance and quality, but that's true of every aspect of what we do.
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
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das
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Re: Insole leather
DW & Jenny,
Wrinkles be as they may, I cut roughly toes/heels in line with the spine, tilting a little to get maximum yeild.
I've never had mine break along a winkle.
A line finisher or finishing-line is just a long shaft with various sanding drums, belts, etc.--check your local shoe repair shop to see one. Your belt sander should do just fine
Wrinkles be as they may, I cut roughly toes/heels in line with the spine, tilting a little to get maximum yeild.
I've never had mine break along a winkle.
A line finisher or finishing-line is just a long shaft with various sanding drums, belts, etc.--check your local shoe repair shop to see one. Your belt sander should do just fine
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dw
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Re: Insole leather
Al,
But why? What's your thinking in that regard? Is it just convenience? Do you feel like you get better uniformity of thickness? Why? Why? Why? Enquiring minds wish to know!
What objections would you have to cutting with the wrinkles?
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
(Message edited by dw on December 21, 2005)
But why? What's your thinking in that regard? Is it just convenience? Do you feel like you get better uniformity of thickness? Why? Why? Why? Enquiring minds wish to know!
What objections would you have to cutting with the wrinkles?
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
(Message edited by dw on December 21, 2005)
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jenny_fleishman
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Re: Insole leather
Al, DW...I will have to post again on this once I get my leather out (after I finish my lasts, still a work in progress!), but I could have sworn it seemed to bend more easily one way than the other.
Another thought about the wrinkles. For cement down shoes for my own use, I will probably be putting additional removable/replacable insoles (poron, etc.) in the shoes. If I didn't do that, my feet are so sensitive (Princess and the Pea sensitive!) that I would probably be able to feel the wrinkles or variation in the thickness of the leather unless I could really sand it to a uniform thickness. Even if that is possible, would the insoles still tend to bend more easily at the wrinkles if they go across the feet, or is that aspect not noticable?
Also, to get rid of the variation in thickness, do you have to sand down both sides of the leather, or only the grain side? I may be getting a small bench sander. Only thing is that the wheels are only 3/4" wide. For sanding down the wrinkles would it be best to sand parallel to the wrinkles or perpendicular (across the wrinkles) to reduce the thicker areas?
Jenny
Another thought about the wrinkles. For cement down shoes for my own use, I will probably be putting additional removable/replacable insoles (poron, etc.) in the shoes. If I didn't do that, my feet are so sensitive (Princess and the Pea sensitive!) that I would probably be able to feel the wrinkles or variation in the thickness of the leather unless I could really sand it to a uniform thickness. Even if that is possible, would the insoles still tend to bend more easily at the wrinkles if they go across the feet, or is that aspect not noticable?
Also, to get rid of the variation in thickness, do you have to sand down both sides of the leather, or only the grain side? I may be getting a small bench sander. Only thing is that the wheels are only 3/4" wide. For sanding down the wrinkles would it be best to sand parallel to the wrinkles or perpendicular (across the wrinkles) to reduce the thicker areas?
Jenny
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das
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Re: Insole leather
DW,
"Why?" Well, look at a full shoulder. The spine down the middle is the thickest, then it quickly falls off to flabby material at the outermost edges. If you cut the insoles with the toes/heels pointed in towards the backbone, they'd tend to be thicker at one end than the other. If you cut them "with" the backbone, it's easier to get matching pairs of uniform thickness toe to heel.
"Why?" Well, look at a full shoulder. The spine down the middle is the thickest, then it quickly falls off to flabby material at the outermost edges. If you cut the insoles with the toes/heels pointed in towards the backbone, they'd tend to be thicker at one end than the other. If you cut them "with" the backbone, it's easier to get matching pairs of uniform thickness toe to heel.
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dw
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Re: Insole leather
Al,
the more I thought about it the more I figured tht would be your reason. I'm not sayin' you're wrong, 'cuz you're not. BTDT. I just hate seeing those fat wrinkles running across the insole. I think they are much more pronounced on some of this Mexican shoulder than on the Baker.
And truth to tell there seems to be a point on the shoulders where even if you have religiously matched rights and lefts on either side of the backbone, you'll still end up with one or more pair of insoles that are thinner on one edge than the other.
[sigh] I do wish someone would import Baker shoulders for resale.
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
the more I thought about it the more I figured tht would be your reason. I'm not sayin' you're wrong, 'cuz you're not. BTDT. I just hate seeing those fat wrinkles running across the insole. I think they are much more pronounced on some of this Mexican shoulder than on the Baker.
And truth to tell there seems to be a point on the shoulders where even if you have religiously matched rights and lefts on either side of the backbone, you'll still end up with one or more pair of insoles that are thinner on one edge than the other.
[sigh] I do wish someone would import Baker shoulders for resale.
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
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tomo
Re: Insole leather
Hey DW, Al,
What are you guys talking about 'Fat wrinkles'? Do you mean excessively heavy neck wrinkles? - I wouldn't select saddlery leather that had those, because of the waste, I usually get Butts or backs, and sometimes I get a side because the belly and flank pieces are great for cheap repairs or moulded work.
The growth marks at the neck run like little ravines from the backbone out to the belly (usually the tannery either works these out in the finishing process, or 'corrects the grain' with a frapping big drum sander, that sands the imperfections out and takes the top layer of grain off - but they still call it 'Full Grain'... go figure). So if you cut the insoles as Al suggested, parrallel to the backbone you would get the 'ravines' running across the sole, and I could see how these would form fault lines when the sole flexed. So are you saying that's not a bad thing?
Sorry forgot to put my name.
More power to y'awl
T.
(Message edited by Tomo on December 21, 2005)
What are you guys talking about 'Fat wrinkles'? Do you mean excessively heavy neck wrinkles? - I wouldn't select saddlery leather that had those, because of the waste, I usually get Butts or backs, and sometimes I get a side because the belly and flank pieces are great for cheap repairs or moulded work.
The growth marks at the neck run like little ravines from the backbone out to the belly (usually the tannery either works these out in the finishing process, or 'corrects the grain' with a frapping big drum sander, that sands the imperfections out and takes the top layer of grain off - but they still call it 'Full Grain'... go figure). So if you cut the insoles as Al suggested, parrallel to the backbone you would get the 'ravines' running across the sole, and I could see how these would form fault lines when the sole flexed. So are you saying that's not a bad thing?
Sorry forgot to put my name.
More power to y'awl
T.
(Message edited by Tomo on December 21, 2005)
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dw
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Re: Insole leather
Tom,
Insole shoulders are portions that the average leather buyer never sees...the shoulder having been trimmed off beforehand. And yes they are typically dense with wrinkles coming off the neck and shoulder. But the shoulder is ideal for making insoles...if, according to my druthers, you can get it heavy enough--10-12 iron. And yes the wrinkles are rather deep especially in comparison to the back or butt or the "heart" of the hide--which usually have little or no wrinkling. But I wouldn't call what I'm seeing "ravines" either. And I would say that the Mexican shoulders I'm buying are probably 30-40% heavier with wrinkles than I remember the Baker being. That said the Mexican is pretty dern good for the price and easy to channel and inseam yet amazingly strong. So...you just work with what you got...or in this case, what's available.
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
Insole shoulders are portions that the average leather buyer never sees...the shoulder having been trimmed off beforehand. And yes they are typically dense with wrinkles coming off the neck and shoulder. But the shoulder is ideal for making insoles...if, according to my druthers, you can get it heavy enough--10-12 iron. And yes the wrinkles are rather deep especially in comparison to the back or butt or the "heart" of the hide--which usually have little or no wrinkling. But I wouldn't call what I'm seeing "ravines" either. And I would say that the Mexican shoulders I'm buying are probably 30-40% heavier with wrinkles than I remember the Baker being. That said the Mexican is pretty dern good for the price and easy to channel and inseam yet amazingly strong. So...you just work with what you got...or in this case, what's available.
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
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das
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Re: Insole leather
DW,
All I find is that you get more well matched pairs, book-matching this way, cutting fore and aft with the Bakers, than going sideways. Sure, there might end up being one pair where one side is thicker/firmer than t'uther, but you can usually even that out by judicious skiving/sanding on the flesh if it's a problem. And the wrinkles are minimal in Baker's leather anyway. Visible ones usually go away after "snuffing" the grain off anyway.
Check Golding or Korn under "exhaustive cutting"--I think he has a plate showing the [this?] layout--maybe scan and post here?
Though we're making "bespoke" mostly, it's still a lot easier to rough-cut and store a stack of paired insoles ready to go, than cut them as needed a pair at a time, off a whole shoulder. We cut, sort, and store our outer sole too, cutting the bends up into ranges. Come to think of it, the three most common sizes we make anyway are 8, 9, and 10 [men's only], so if we need a 15, or a 5, those we just cut off the next shoulder. The backbone strip down the middle of the shoulder we save for split-lifts, shanks, etc.
All I find is that you get more well matched pairs, book-matching this way, cutting fore and aft with the Bakers, than going sideways. Sure, there might end up being one pair where one side is thicker/firmer than t'uther, but you can usually even that out by judicious skiving/sanding on the flesh if it's a problem. And the wrinkles are minimal in Baker's leather anyway. Visible ones usually go away after "snuffing" the grain off anyway.
Check Golding or Korn under "exhaustive cutting"--I think he has a plate showing the [this?] layout--maybe scan and post here?
Though we're making "bespoke" mostly, it's still a lot easier to rough-cut and store a stack of paired insoles ready to go, than cut them as needed a pair at a time, off a whole shoulder. We cut, sort, and store our outer sole too, cutting the bends up into ranges. Come to think of it, the three most common sizes we make anyway are 8, 9, and 10 [men's only], so if we need a 15, or a 5, those we just cut off the next shoulder. The backbone strip down the middle of the shoulder we save for split-lifts, shanks, etc.
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dw
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Re: Insole leather
Al, Jenny, Tom, all,
I suspect it has as much to do with the source as anything else. The Baker shoulders we imported some years back was "bull" shoulder--much thicker and I seem to recall that the fat wrinkles were there and noticable. I think that many folk who got in on that buying consortioum were disappointed because of the wrinkles. Though I was surprised, when I thought about it I wasn't concerned.
I will cut my next several pair per your suggestion (...and Golding...one mustn't defy the "Elders" ). I am more or less forced to cut as I go. For instance, right now I have a pair of five E's with a wide round toe and a pair of elevensies with a box toe--which requires an additional 2"(?) of insole beyond the outline of the last--and this is typical of any two pair in process in our shop. So cutting as I go, if I don't like it I can always go back to cutting perpendicular to the backbone.
Good idea for the backbone strip too.
What volume in Golding? Do you recall? I'll scan it in if I can find it...
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
I suspect it has as much to do with the source as anything else. The Baker shoulders we imported some years back was "bull" shoulder--much thicker and I seem to recall that the fat wrinkles were there and noticable. I think that many folk who got in on that buying consortioum were disappointed because of the wrinkles. Though I was surprised, when I thought about it I wasn't concerned.
I will cut my next several pair per your suggestion (...and Golding...one mustn't defy the "Elders"
). I am more or less forced to cut as I go. For instance, right now I have a pair of five E's with a wide round toe and a pair of elevensies with a box toe--which requires an additional 2"(?) of insole beyond the outline of the last--and this is typical of any two pair in process in our shop. So cutting as I go, if I don't like it I can always go back to cutting perpendicular to the backbone. Good idea for the backbone strip too.
What volume in Golding? Do you recall? I'll scan it in if I can find it...
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
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jenny_fleishman
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Re: Insole leather
Insole materials...although my initial inclination is to go with leather insoles, and I imagine bootmakers have this preference, I am wondering about the use of insole board vs. leather for shoe insoles in cement-down shoes--issues being durability, flexibility, comfort, weight, etc. Does anyone find insole board preferable to leather in any of these (or olther) respects? Thanks.
Jenny
Jenny
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relferink
Re: Insole leather
Jenny,
Leather! for durability, flexibility, comfort and weight. Only use cardboard if you make hundreds of pairs of shoes and you need to save a buck or so per shoe.
It does not have to be thick or heavy leather, a nice flexible shoulder will be fine.
Rob
Leather! for durability, flexibility, comfort and weight. Only use cardboard if you make hundreds of pairs of shoes and you need to save a buck or so per shoe.
It does not have to be thick or heavy leather, a nice flexible shoulder will be fine.
Rob
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erickgeer
Re: Insole leather
Jenny,
For cemented shoes, I've just gotten a sample of 5/6 oz. single shoulder from Weaver- it looks like it will do very well.
Erick
For cemented shoes, I've just gotten a sample of 5/6 oz. single shoulder from Weaver- it looks like it will do very well.
Erick
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JIM WHITLEY
Re: Insole leather
I HAVE A PROBLEM I GOT CHEMICALED IN THE WAR AND AM EXTREMELY SENSITIVE SHOES BURN MY FEET, CANT WALK BARE FOOT, NO SOAP, FLAME RETARDANTS, PARTICLE BOARD, NO, NO. NO! I NEED CHEMICAL FREE SHOES. WHERE DO I GET THEM ..AND I'M SURE YOU KNOW ABOUT THAT POT OF GOLD US VET GET ?...JW WHITLEY CALIFORNIA.
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dw
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Re: Insole leather
Jim,
First, I need to put on my "moderator's hat" and mention the fact that, on the internet, capitalizing all the words in your post is considered to be "shouting." I'm sure that wasn't your intent.
As to your need for a chemical-free shoe...it is hard to know what chemicals will bother you and which won't. However, allergies (chemical sensitivity) to the salts in chrome tanned leathers is a fairly common affliction.
For years the consensus was that bark tanned lerathers would not cause a reaction the way that chrome tanned leathers would. In recent years even the bark tans are a little suspect. That said, if you go to a reputable bespoke shemaker, you ought to be able to have a pir of shoe made entirely of vegetable tanned leather.
As an experiment before you commit to having a pair made, you might ask the maker for some small swatches of his lining and insole leather and tape these pieces next to your skin for a day or two. If you have a reaction to to these leathers, you may have to look at cloth instead of leather (although even there...).
Hope this helps...
Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Membe
First, I need to put on my "moderator's hat" and mention the fact that, on the internet, capitalizing all the words in your post is considered to be "shouting." I'm sure that wasn't your intent.
As to your need for a chemical-free shoe...it is hard to know what chemicals will bother you and which won't. However, allergies (chemical sensitivity) to the salts in chrome tanned leathers is a fairly common affliction.
For years the consensus was that bark tanned lerathers would not cause a reaction the way that chrome tanned leathers would. In recent years even the bark tans are a little suspect. That said, if you go to a reputable bespoke shemaker, you ought to be able to have a pir of shoe made entirely of vegetable tanned leather.
As an experiment before you commit to having a pair made, you might ask the maker for some small swatches of his lining and insole leather and tape these pieces next to your skin for a day or two. If you have a reaction to to these leathers, you may have to look at cloth instead of leather (although even there...).
Hope this helps...
Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Membe
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jenny_fleishman
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- Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2005 12:00 pm
- Full Name: Jenny Fleishman
- Location: Chicago, IL, USA
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Re: Insole leather
re tempering...does tempering insole leather make much of a difference? What are the pros, and are there any cons? I didn't do it on my fitter shoe, but am wondering if it's worth doing on my next (first) pair of shoes. Is the purpose of tempering only to make the leather insole more flexible? If so, would that added flexibility only be for applying it to the bottom of the last, or would it remain more flexible, even after it dries? Are there other effects of tempering than flexibility?
Do you pound the leather with a hammer while damp, or do you only do this with heel and/or outsole leather?
Once you have tacked the leather to the bottom of the last, do you let it dry before lasting the upper so it shrinks back to it's original thickness? Does the size of the insole shrink (do you have to cut it bigger than the bottom of the last and then trim it once it dries?)?
Here is a previous post by DW:
As this subject was source for a bit of controversy in the past (see archives 51-75), I thought it might be useful to share what Golding (actually Mr. W. Wardley) has to say about wetting and "tempering" the soles, insoles, etc..
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quote:
The bench-man commences by wetting, or rather mellowing, the heel-stiffeners, toe-boxing, and soles.
The process of mellowing is one that should be thoroughly understood. It is not just dipping the material in and out of the water; nor is it leaving the material soaking in the water for an indefinite period.
THE PROCESS OF MELLOWING
A large earthenware or enamelled pan should be obtained deep enough to cover completely the materials being soaked. Any old pan or tin will not do, as, in soaking, the bare iron coming in contact with the leather causes a deep black stain on the material, which, in the case of sole leather is an eyesore to the appearance of the bottom, and a great detriment to the finishing process. This stain is caused by the salts of iron coming in contact with the tanning agents or tannic acid emanating from the material being soaked. The same thing occurs if damp or wet leather is placed on iron tools upon the bench, and is a point to be guarded against.
The material should be placed in clean water and completely covered, not half in and half out, as this causes stains and shadings in the colour of the material.
If a little mulling liquor is added to the water, it greatly adds to the softening, tempering, or mellowing effects on the leather.
The duration of soaking is governed by many factors peculiar to the material being used, such as substance of the material, denseness of fibre, quality of leather, and the various tannages. As a general rule, the material should be thoroughly soaked until quite supple,(emphasis mine) then taken out and laid on one side (preferably in a dark corner) to allow all superfluous water to drain off, and the fibres to become thoroughly impregnated.
If it is not to be used at once, a good plan is to wrap the material in a cloth or brown paper and keep it in the dark. This will keep the material in a mellow condition for a very considerable time.
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Jenny
Do you pound the leather with a hammer while damp, or do you only do this with heel and/or outsole leather?
Once you have tacked the leather to the bottom of the last, do you let it dry before lasting the upper so it shrinks back to it's original thickness? Does the size of the insole shrink (do you have to cut it bigger than the bottom of the last and then trim it once it dries?)?
Here is a previous post by DW:
As this subject was source for a bit of controversy in the past (see archives 51-75), I thought it might be useful to share what Golding (actually Mr. W. Wardley) has to say about wetting and "tempering" the soles, insoles, etc..
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote:
The bench-man commences by wetting, or rather mellowing, the heel-stiffeners, toe-boxing, and soles.
The process of mellowing is one that should be thoroughly understood. It is not just dipping the material in and out of the water; nor is it leaving the material soaking in the water for an indefinite period.
THE PROCESS OF MELLOWING
A large earthenware or enamelled pan should be obtained deep enough to cover completely the materials being soaked. Any old pan or tin will not do, as, in soaking, the bare iron coming in contact with the leather causes a deep black stain on the material, which, in the case of sole leather is an eyesore to the appearance of the bottom, and a great detriment to the finishing process. This stain is caused by the salts of iron coming in contact with the tanning agents or tannic acid emanating from the material being soaked. The same thing occurs if damp or wet leather is placed on iron tools upon the bench, and is a point to be guarded against.
The material should be placed in clean water and completely covered, not half in and half out, as this causes stains and shadings in the colour of the material.
If a little mulling liquor is added to the water, it greatly adds to the softening, tempering, or mellowing effects on the leather.
The duration of soaking is governed by many factors peculiar to the material being used, such as substance of the material, denseness of fibre, quality of leather, and the various tannages. As a general rule, the material should be thoroughly soaked until quite supple,(emphasis mine) then taken out and laid on one side (preferably in a dark corner) to allow all superfluous water to drain off, and the fibres to become thoroughly impregnated.
If it is not to be used at once, a good plan is to wrap the material in a cloth or brown paper and keep it in the dark. This will keep the material in a mellow condition for a very considerable time.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jenny