The Crispin Colloquy

Interesting. Gorilla glue is a bit nasty to work with, like if it gets on your hands or anything. It also foams. Do you let it dry before lasting the outer?

Press cement is also known as celluloid cement. It goes back quite a ways...to the late 19th century. Which makes it more or less historically contemporaneous with the heyday of cowboy boots.

Celluloid cement is just celluloid dissolved in acetone.

Kewpie dolls are/were made of celluloid; also ping pong balls and cue balls--as a substitute for ivory (sometimes they exploded, or so I'm told).

And of course early motion picture film was celluloid acetate.


Celluloid cement makes a relatively fast drying, penetrating, hard, waterproof, coating that can be scraped (with cabinet scrapers), sanded, filed, and used to bind pieces of leather together. Back in the day...sholes were attached (especially half soles) with celluloid cement and a shoe press...hence the name "press cement."

Unlike dextrine and flour pastes, it is not seen as a food source for roaches.

To this day, repairment competing in the Silver Cup competition often use press cement for their entries in the half sole competition because it makes an almost invisible joint, when done properly.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

(Message edited by dw on June 14, 2007)

Do you know where press cement can be purchased?

Ok,
Curiosity quenched..........thanks.And will take your advice on the sanding/ scraping once smooth to the touch I will leave well enough alone to dry over night.

Ed

You can get press cement from;

Panhandle Leather Co.
4104 Amarillo Blvd. West
Amarillo Tx. 79106
1-800-537-3945

They call it "toe box". Only comes in a quart.

Blake

Rick, here's how I use the Gorilla Glue.

After the the toe box is glued to the lining leather, I moisten it and then brush on the Gorilla Glue with a glue brush. Surprisingly it doesn't foam all that much - fairly different than using it to glue wood together. I let it dry overnight and then file, sand and scape it to shape it, remove what foaming takes place and to rough it up for gluing. Could apply again if needed too.

I've never used Celluloid Cement so I can't compare it to how Gorilla Glue works. I'd need to have someone with experience test it and give feedback on how they think it compares.

Craig

(Message edited by corvin on June 14, 2007)

Midwest Chemical (1-314-781-5831) carries press cement. I believe you can buy it in gallons from them. that's who I get mine from.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

When putting press cement on toe boxes and heel stiffeners, I have been putting it on the lasting margin--figuring this helps it maintain it's strength and alignment.

But because it creates such a hard, smooth finish, does this cause the soling materials not to adhere as well? I am strictly using cement down construction. Thanks!

Jenny

Jenny,

I can't really tell what you are asking about...

If you put press cement on the lasting allowance of a toe box or heel stiffener, it will adhere to the underside of the vamp or quarter as you finish up lasting.

But, you don't put more press cement on the upper leather do you?

So, If you do a cement contruction the cement (presumably all-purpose) should be applied to roughed up but "virgin" upper leather. That will stick.

In the final analysis, however, as I mentioned in a recent post (above), many, many repairmen used to use press cement to do invisible half soles for competition work. Going by that alone, I would think that press cement is almost ideal for cement contruction...if you have a press.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

DW, I am using the press cement to stiffen the toe box and heel counter, and then will use Barge to cement the outer kidskin after lasting it. I coated the lasting margin of the stiffeners with the press cement, thinking it helps the stiffeners keep their shape. But the veg tan stiffeners become very hard (of course!), and my concern is that the lasting margin of the upper won't adhere as well because the Barge won't be able to soak into the lasting margin of the stiffeners since they are hardened with press cement.

I misspoke when I referred to soling materials not adhering...it is actually the upper leather that would be in question.

Jenny

Jenny,

Well, I'm not sure how this would work on heel stiffeners but I cement the vamps to the toe boxes with press cement. Just before I pull the toes over, I put one fresh coat of press cement on the toe box and then I draft and wipe the toes.

I wouldn't rely on AP sticking to PC unless it has been thoroughly roughed.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

Jenny,

Using press cement in the lasting margin is fine but I would only do it on the side that attaches to the lining and insole, not the vamp leather. (I'm not using grain vs flesh side since there seems to be some variation in application) As DW mentioned a press would be ideal. In lack thereof tack down the toe box securely with nails and keep them in overnight. The nails will hold down the leather of the toebox as if under a press.
Once you take the nails out you have to cut off the pleads you created in the toe box lasting margin. With your new grinder it will be easy enough to smooth and rough that area with your grinder, creating a rough enough base for your AP to hold securely.
When you are ready to close up the vamp you use press cement over the to box and you have a choice to use AP or press cement in the lasting margin but structurally you don't have to use press cement. The toebox has enough stance from the coat holding it on the insole . AP works quicker and cleaner since you can apply it after you have finish pulling over the vamp, press cement is slower and messier and you will need a good number of nails or staples holding down the vamp leather to create some pressure on the press cement. A wiping strip would do very well for this application.
No wrong way to do things but with the cement construction you always have to rough the base your cementing to, no matter if you used press cement or not.
The same thing goes for your counters.

Rob

Thanks, all. Of course, I've already done it differently and the shoes will probably fall apart!

I have a related question re AP cement. I actually coated just the toe box, and not the outer vamp leather, and then lasted the vamp over the toe box without waiting for the cement to get tacky, because I wanted to be able to reposition the vamp slightly if it didn't end up in exactly the right position. Then I hammered the vamp area lightly with a hammer to encourage adhesion. (Just winging it, really .)

I also had coated the toe box area of the lining with AP and then put the toe box on right away (again so I could slide it into the proper position if I didn't get it just right).

My question (yes, there is one!), is how does AP perform when used like this--just on one surface, and putting the two surfaces together right away?

Also, am I likely to have problems

Jenny

Jenny,

Should be alright, but consider this....you're not losing anything, in terms of repositioning, if you add a little wet AP on the "other" surface as well.

When I mount my toe boxes, I put AP on both the toe box and the lining...then mount the toe box while everything is still wet. And that's after previously cementing, and letting dry, a coat of AP on the roughed up grain of the toe box.

What's the difference? Mostly that there's more cement there to begin with.


Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

Another press cement question...
After looking at press cement contents on previous postings and then looking at lacquer sanding sealer, is there a difference or are they same renamed? My point is not to avoid the sources listed previously, but if lacquer is the same then we could get it at the local hardware/paint/woodworker shop and avoid the hazardous shipping issues and have smaller quantities available. You can use a reducer in humid climates also with lacquer to avoid condensation/blushing problems associated with quick drying paint, but I guess that you could do that with press also. Thoughts?
Lyle

According to wikipedia, lacquer is nitrocellulose, which is the same as press cement. Let me know how it works.

Hi...I'm new to this but reading the last comment about lacquer can anyone answer me...
I am making a simple pair of shoes using the 'stitchdown' method with a single piece of thick leather. After steaming and lasting the shoes I now need to stiffen the inside toe area(this was shown to me many years ago by a shoemaker - he used his fingers and a type of shellac/varnish to rub inside the toe leather).
I have tried wood varnish but this only softens the leather and does not stiffen it.
Does anyone you know how I can stiffen the leather without the addition of a toe puff or other piece. Also I am not familiar with the press cement that you all mention as I live in the UK. Would shellac or wood lacquer do the job and hold the shape for years.
I am just a hobbyist making shoes to fit my 'wide' feet.

There are materials for that - I never used them, but why don't you just use a canvas for it? Not that thick, and you have it at home - doesn't need to buy 15 liters from it..

Thanks Marcell, I think it will be very difficult for me to glue a pre-cut canvas toe puff into the toe area without the whole toe area softening and then losing it's shape - don't forget this shoes upper is already stitched to the insole. If I then put the shoe onto the last again, surely it will glue itself onto the last?
I need some sort of lacquer that will quickly form a strong surface without sinking into the leather too much....any advice is very helpful to a novice like me.

Rooty:

You might try MextroTex paste -- if I remember correctly, some of the UK makers use it to stiffen their toe boxes, so that might work. Probably worth testing out, in any event.

You might also call the folks at Algeos, describe your dilemma, and see if they have any recommendations.

Let us know how it works out.

Lance

Thanks Lance, I'll give them a call.

Rooty,

I believe that press cement is more technically known as "nitro-cellulose acetate." It is a very old compound...they used to make faux ivory billiard balls out of it (which sometimes, and erratically, exploded), kewpie dolls, and movie film. It is sometimes called "celluloid cement." Acetone is the correct solvent for it.

I'm not sure that it would solve your problem but I suspect that the reason your varnish didn't work is that the leather you are using is "oil stuffed."

If so, you might not find anything that will work.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

Rooty and DW
was talking with a luthier (mandolin and guitars) He commented on you can don't buy "nitro-cellulose acetate." any more, as they were used for pick guards on the classics. He showed me the new replacement but vynil based.
The "nitro-cellulose acetate." had a habit of being very unstable and blowing up! might explain a few house fires?
As DW said if it's oil tanned it is going to be hard.
I take it you did not include a lining?
So are you going to reach into the toe and try and coat the underside of the leather?
Need more info for an answer. Have a few ideas but need to know were you are at.

Brendon,

If I remember correctly, you're in Canada? I can't speak for Canada but you can purchase celluloid cement in the US.

MidWest Chemical carries it. In fact, when Peirce and Stevens discontinued Barge Press Cement...which I had used for years...I went looking for a replacement--a "quest," if you will. There is even a place in Maine(?) that makes "Ambroid" which is a form of nitro-cellulose acetate.

I found several other sources as well but, like the Ambroid, they all smelled like to make you sick and more importantly they had vinyl "conditioners" added that made the stuff dry funny.

The Press cement from Midwest Chemical is as near to the same formula as the old Barge as to make no difference.

During my "quest" I even considered using a type of hard varnish...but eventually decided against it--the press cement is just too good for stiffening leather toe boxes and it works fairly quickly (unlike any varnish).

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

PS...the telephone number for Midwest Chemical is contained in a post above made on Thursday, June 14, 2007 - 05:24 pm

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member