Toe boxes

[dw]

All,

Yes, I have found a new source for press cement, it's spendy though what with shipping and all, and you have to buy five gallons at a time.

The solvent for the old stuff, and the new, is acetone. I have made good cement out of hard blocks of the old Barge press cement, simply by pouring the acetone to it. Seems to me that when the block is hard, it will take more than its own volume of acetone to reactivate it.

Matt, I second the question...what is the brand name of the floor finishing you're using? And how fast does it dry before you can sand it and apply another coat?

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[T. J. Hall, III]

All,

I appreciate all the feedback.

I was especially happy to find out it is possible to reconstitute dried up press cement, since I have almost 1/3 of a gallon still wedged in the can.

Maybe in 5 or 6 years (at the rate I use the stuff), I will need to delve into possible substitutes for this nasty substance. However, it has been proven to work and I do not much want to be a pioneer exploring alternatives.

[mnewberry]

I use Diamond Floor Finish, by Flecto (the makers of Varathane). I just tried it on a whim, having had extra from a home project. I've found that if you wet and fine sand/burnish the area that you are going to cover, and then immediately put on you first coat, it goes on nicely. Otherwise, it raises some nap on the leather. It has served me well on both build-ups and toe boxes. I don't care if I ever smell press cement again. (Life is too short as it is.) I tink it was about $40/gallon, and available in quarts for a trial. Good luck (and take a chance, TJ, you never know!)

Matt

[dw]

Matt,

Good to have that information on record. I'm still curious though...there may come a time when press cement is no longer available anywhere...how long does the Diamond Floor Finish have to dry before you can sand it?

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[mnewberry]

DW,

I think that I'd let the Diamond set for about 8-10 minutes between coats, and maybe 30 before sanding the final coat. These would be guesses, though, as I'm usually batching this kind of work, and it will often sit longer here. It doesn't end up quite as pretty as the press, either, just for the record.

Matt

[dw]

Thanks, Matt. That doesn't sound too much different than the press cement--pretty or no. In fact, the new press cement may take a bit longer to dry so it's not still a little rubbery (clogs the sandpaper).

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[jake]

Dee-Dubb,

I was thinking the other day about how you taught me to put in leather toe boxes. I must say, I always had a little problem working with the hard soling leather. Are you still using soling leather for your toe boxes? How thick?

Hey....maybe you can explain the technique you're using now! (hint, hint) I'm sure after all these years, you must have changed something!

Mucho Gracious in Advance!

[dw]

Jake,

Hoo hum...well, first I gotta state right off that some folks take this issue very personally. I never have and never will. I do, however, believe that it is worth looking at...objectively...discussing the pros and cons if that's what's wanted. The CC is, at bottom a *discussion* forum--a forum of ideas, not personalities.

So...up front...I like leather toe boxes. I would never, ever use anything else. That's just my preference. To my mind there are simply some procedures and some materials that you cannot change, modify, or substitute very much at all, when making a shoe or boot, without fundamentally changing the whole nature of what you're doing. Leather toe boxes, leather counters, leather heel bases, insoles, etc. all fit into that category in my mind...even though you can replace each one of them with paper or plastic and still have a boot...of sorts.

A large part of the reason we make boots or shoes involves a sense of self-satisfaction and self-gratification. We make boots to please ourselves as much as anybody. Nine times out of ten the customer, no matter how "educated" he is, really has no clue as to the why's or the wherefores that went into making the boot. At some level the customer will never be able to appreciate what you've done. So whatever *genuine* appreciation our work might possibly generate has to come from ourselves. You know what I mean, Jake...you've encountered the same thing yourself, with the unwaxed Teklon and the split bristles.

A great deal has been made of "skill" on this forum, in the past. By myself and by others. It takes skill to cut an angled channel into the insole and inseam blind. I don't question that. I did it that way myself for 20+ years. I developed a certain skill and never had any complaints from the customer. But I don't believe that there is substantially *less* skill involved in doing a vertical channel and holing the insole--just a different sort of skill perhaps. But that's another story. On the other hand, the same issues of skill apply to leather toe boxes. I make leather toe boxes out of everything from 3 ounce veg calf and kangaroo to 7 iron insole bellies. It depends on what I am trying to achieve. I make boots that visually are late 19th century. Historically, many of those boots had no toe box at all. So a soft toe box, while retaining the shape of the boot, allows the boot to break-in in a fashion similar to the originals. That's where I'll use the 3 ounce veg calf. On the other hand, I like that really crisp, solid look and feel of the old "box" toe. The best way to achieve that effect perfectly, in my opinion, is to use leather--I use insole belly. The old books often recommend insole, or outsole, shoulder. It's all much the same tannage and temper. But the technique, itself, is not hard to do...it takes some skill, no question, but if I can do it, anyone can.

In answer to your question/request, give me a little time...I propose to do a photo essay of the sort that you and I have both enjoyed. I have three photos in the "can" right now that will work and get us started (the beginning, a middle and the end), the rest will come along in the next several weeks.

Tight Stitches
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http://www.bootmaker.com

"Little Jack Dandiprat, in a white petticoat,
The longer he lives the shorter he grows."

[dw]

This first photo is of a toe box pattern and the leather it will come from.

Some have said...unequivocally--defying rebuttal, even...that toe boxes cannot be made from "scraps on the floor." I think we need to re-examine that assertion:.

If I have a piece of insole belly that is too short to cut an insole out of, what is that called? I submit it is a "scrap." If I cut two 10 inch outsoles out of a fourteen inch piece of insole belly...using my five-in-one...what happens to the four inch remnant? Nine times out of ten it ends up on the floor, at least in my shop (until I sweep up), so...

Here it is folks...a toe box about to be cut from a "scrap off the floor."

2778.jpg

Tight Stitches
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"Little Jack Dandiprat, in a white petticoat,
The longer he lives the shorter he grows."

[jake]

Dee-Dubb,

You just take all the time you want. This will be a treat! For those who have never used an insole belly for a toe box, should give it a try. You'll appreciate what we're about to see even more!

Let'er rip!

[shoestring]

Even though I am still wet behind the ears but the first toe box I tried was insoling belly off the floor same for the heel counter.And I thought I was just being frugal.DW I know this will be a lesson to remember,can't wait.Thanks for the eye opener

[dw]

Before I go on I want to talk a bit about the light weight toe boxes because I'm not gonna photo them or go through the procedure in detail...if you can do it with insole belly you can do it with veg calf.

As I said at the beginning, I make a few pair with what I call "soft toes" although, surprisingly enough these toe boxes end up harder than you might think. I had originally hoped that on my "neo-Victorian" style boots (full pegged, full wellingtons with great, wide "coffin" toes) that the toe box would collapse and get a crease in it much as the old style boots, without any toe box at all, would have done. To my chagrin, I've yet to make a toe box soft enough to do that. But you *can* feel the softness of the toe box if you press on them with your thumb.

I use the same patterns and the same techniques for "soft toes," but I cut them out of about three ounce vegetable tanned calf or sometimes even two ounce veg kangaroo--depends on the density and firmness of the leather. Again "scraps off the floor" in many cases...certifiably *scraps*, at any rate. I can guarantee, I'm not buying leather specifically for toe boxes nor even setting aside portions of a hide for the purpose. Years, and years ago--before I even was a bootmaker--I saw an old Rumanian bootmaker using vamp leather (probably a French or German calf) for toe boxes. I've never forgotten that, but have never worked up the nerve to take it that far.

As with all of my toe boxes, after I have cut them to shape, I skive the "back edge" pretty good and I rough up the grain side. I apply a good coat of all purpose to the grain side of the leather and then I let it dry. When the cement has dried, I throw the toe boxes in a bucket of water. I don't know how long it takes to get the leather thoroughly wet...I'm not standing around checking it every couple of minutes. But in the aftermath of conversations we had here on the Crispin Colloquy last year, I am not leaving any leather in the water as long as I used to. I'm sure that even the insole belly can be wet through and through in an hour...probably less.

When I pull them from the water, I can either mull them in newspaper for a while...even a day or so...or I can use them right away. I'll describe the procedure from here in subsequent posts. But especially with the soft toe boxes I can probably mount a pair and re-last the toe of the vamp all in a day. Depends on how fast the press cement dries more than anything.

But!! Make no mistake, I don't use leather toe boxes because they are fast. I wouldn't be surprised if it takes twice as long to prepare and finalize leather toe boxes as it does celastic. Most of that time, however, is drying time and I'm not sitting around twiddling my thumbs and waiting.

In all cases, I am using material--leather--that I have on hand, that I've already paid for and that doesn't require any additional outlay. So, Ed, it *is* frugal. But more than that, it is part and parcel of what we are already doing. There's a "harmony" there that gives me a certain pleasure and satisfaction.

What's more, it is a material that doesn't require any other, or any additional, toxic material than I already have to put up with, and which makes a toe box that, when it is done, is every bit as good as, and in my opinion, better than any other material being used. Simply put, whatever the advantages of celastic (even taking into consideration the "easy" factor), the **end result** is not in any demonstrable way superior to leather. And in my opinion, the leather may have the advantage.

Tight Stitches
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frommer@bootmaker.com
http://www.bootmaker.com

"Little Jack Dandiprat, in a white petticoat,
The longer he lives the shorter he grows."

[tomo]

DW,
I appreciate the trouble you're going too re: the toe boxes. I for one am looking forward to it!

Earlier on in this thread glue was discussed. Is 'Press cement' another name for 'contact adhesive' ie you apply it to both halves, let it dry off a bit then press the two halves together? Or is press cement a trade name like Barge etc?

I noticed Dextrine mentioned. Dave Jones uses it in his book 'Making and repairing Western Saddles' (ISBN 0-668-04906-5) Page 73 to stick the swell cover to the saddle tree.

Also, the 'ol boys in the furniture trade use to use glue in a double boiler that was derived from cow hooves - and other bits I suspect - The glue was used in furniture manufacture ie as a wood glue and I suspect this is a dextrine/starch type glue as well. Might not be toxic but we'll probably get Mad Cow or some such. Perhaps this stuff could be used on boots as it's derived from the same source

More power to y'awl.
Tom.

[dw]

Tom,

Good question...press cement is not a contact cement. It is a very old formula...goes back way over a hundred years...that is essentially nitro cellulose and acetate. They used to make movie film out of it...and kewpie dolls and ping pong balls and billiard balls and all sorts of stuff. It requires acetone as a solvent.

The human body creates it's own acetone and I have even been told that the body creates more in a day than you could possibly breath in. That said, I don't get down and snuff it up. I don't like it particularly, but it's better than toulene.

Leaving aside the press cement, you are correct...the process I am about to lay out, can be done with contact cement alone. That is the way I was taught. It can even be done with hide glue, rye glue, Hirschkleber or dextrine. Most of the latter however are organic and cockroaches will eat your toes, if you aren't squishing them with daily wear. And Matt Newbury, who posts here occasionally, substitutes a water based varnish by Deft (brand name) for press cement, with good success. The drying times is a little longer with the water based varnish, I would suspect. But otherwise I, myself, have been curious and tempted to try his approach...just never felt any urgency about it.

I'm going to take a few photos this morning....

Tight Stitches
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frommer@bootmaker.com
http://www.bootmaker.com

"Little Jack Dandiprat, in a white petticoat,
The longer he lives the shorter he grows."

[dw]

As mentioned, I use several different types of leather for toe boxes. Besides the insole belly, I've also used scraps of horse (off the floor, without question) that are left over from cutting welting.

This leather comes from Horween and is 7 ounce, as I recall. It is dense yet flexible and makes great, although slightly lightweight, toe boxes. And the best welting available.

When measured with a caliper, it comes out to about .098 of an inch or 3/32" and that's roughly equivalent to a 4.5 iron. The first photo shows a pair of toe boxes for a round toe (or even a wide chisel toe...anything but the box toe) cut from Horween horse welting.

2779.jpg

Tight Stitches
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frommer@bootmaker.com
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"Little Jack Dandiprat, in a white petticoat,
The longer he lives the shorter he grows."

[dw]

The second photo is of a pair of toe boxes taken from scraps of insole belly. The insole belly was probably near to 11 iron and the toe boxes have been split to between 7 and 8 iron.

I will split heavy if I intend to make a "box" toe. I prefer the lighter weight for most other styles. Now every splitter has a personality, so I measured the thickness of the toe boxes. On my machine, the 7 iron setting yields leather that is .140 of an inch. That specs out to approximately 9/64", and that's equivalent to 6.75 irons. The heavier toe boxes measure .165 in.= appr. 11/64, which translates as 8.25 iron.

2780.jpg

Tight Stitches
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"Little Jack Dandiprat, in a white petticoat,
The longer he lives the shorter he grows."

[dw]

In the above photo (toe boxes for the "box" toe), you can see that the flesh side has been skived. I do this with the five-in-one. Later, just before I actually mount the boxes, I will further refine the skiving, by hand, to "customize" it to the last. You may notice, in the photo below, that when I skive the toe box with the five-in-one, I do not run it all the way in to the guard. I don't want those skives to be wider than, say, 3/4 in.

This photo shows the toe box being skived.

2781.jpg

Tight Stitches
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frommer@bootmaker.com
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"Little Jack Dandiprat, in a white petticoat,
The longer he lives the shorter he grows."

[shoestring]

DW,
What difference does it make to skive on the flesh side or grain side.Is that a personal choice.

[dw]

Ed,

Yes and no...some of the old books say skive on both edges. I always mount the toe box with the grainside down, ie. grainside to the lining. I do this because I believe that the densest, firmest leather is right up next to the grain and when I shape the toe box, and I'm cutting away excess, I want to leave or preserve the best leather...don't want to cut any more of that off than necessary. Skiving is also removing leather so the same principle applies.

Also, the "look"...colour...texture...of the leather changes as we get closer and closer to the grain. So when I'm doing the final shaping on the toe box...scraping and sanding and filing, etc....and I see the leather under my piece of glass go from speckled brown to pure pink, I know I'm getting a bit thin there.


Tight Stitches
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frommer@bootmaker.com
http://www.bootmaker.com

[dw]

We are all familiar with the round toe, in all its variations...and that's where this photo essay is focused...but there are three toe shapes that are dealt with a little differently. So I thought I'd touch on them very briefly. They are the "box" toe, the narrow chisel (or "Blutcher" ), and the narrow pointed. The box toe can be made narrow or wide; the chisel toe is made very similarly to the box toe when narrow and more like a round toe when it needs to be wide; and the narrow pointed toe is always, well...narrow and pointed. In the first two cases, the last is shaped like the final toe will be shaped but proportionately smaller. Then, as the insole is being moulded to the bottom of the last, the insole is pulled up over the end of the last and allowed to dry.

2782.jpg

Tight Stitches
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"Little Jack Dandiprat, in a white petticoat,
The longer he lives the shorter he grows."

[dw]

When the insole has dried, it is trimmed. During the trimming process, the portion of the insole that was pulled up over the end of the last is trimmed to a plug. This will be narrow for a narrower toe and wider for a wider toe. It, and the last itself will lean forward a little for box toes and lean back for Blutcher (chisel) toes. [BTW, I make no claim of authenticity for the name Blutcher as applied to chisel toes... simply put, I was taught that that was the name and I am comfortable with it]

2783.jpg

When the toe box itself is mounted, it is not pulled over the end of the last as it would be when making a round toe. It is drawn down tight to the plug and trimmed off flush with the plug. I often wrap a firm piece of leather, maybe an inch wide, around the end of the toe and tack it down to the insole after having drawn it tight. This further insures that the toe box will be tight to the last when it is dry. When dry the toe box is shaped and then it is sewn to the plug.


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frommer@bootmaker.com
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"Little Jack Dandiprat, in a white petticoat,
The longer he lives the shorter he grows."

[dw]

When we make the narrow pointed toe, the toe of the last is shaped very narrow and very pointed. As it is being mounted, the toe box is cut, from the center of the toe box, directly in toward the toe of the last about 3/4 inch--this has to be determined by experience but don't cut too far...and the sides of the toe box are drawn in and tacked down on the underside of the insole. This leaves a section of toe box, on either side of the center cut, protruding ahead of the toe of the last. These sides are pinched together tightly so that the toe box is forced up snug against the last. A tack is driven through both pieces and the toe box is allowed to dry. Then it is sewn together along the line of pinch. When that is done the toe box is shaped. The excess beyond the stitching creates a foundation for shaping the toe box into as sharp a point as we want...or think we can get away with.

2784.gif

Tight Stitches
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"Little Jack Dandiprat, in a white petticoat,
The longer he lives the shorter he grows."

[dw]

Slight amendment to something I mentioned above...the horse welting is probably a 8-9 ounce, I can't remember what I ordered, if the truth be known. But I measured the thickness of some commercial welting and it speced out at 6 iron and .120 inch. That's equivalent to a 7 or 8 ounce. The stuff I'm getting from Horween measures .141 - .148 inch and that's 8-9 ounce and 7 iron. Those measurements come from the middle of the horse strips. That's where you cut your welting. The margins are thinner and that's where I take the lighter weight toe boxes.

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"Little Jack Dandiprat, in a white petticoat,
The longer he lives the shorter he grows."

[dw]

Before we move on, I happened to have a last on which I intend to build a narrow round toe. The photograph below shows how the toe of the last was modified. This last started life as a medium round toe. I think I ground it back to make a wide round toe on a previous pair and now I've built it back up again to accommodate a narrow toe. I would draw your attention to the way in which the toe slopes down to nearly nothing . This toe needs to come to a point when viewed from the side as well as when viewed from the top. Remember, too, that the narrow toe needs to be longer than the medium round toe. Maybe as long as inch and a half longer than the length of the foot. So there is excess there and sloping the toe of the last down like that presents no problem...the foot will never reach that far into the boot. But shaping the last like this makes making the narrow pointed toe easier (less clumsy) and the end result is more stylish, as well.

2785.jpg

Tight Stitches
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[dw]

Now we get down to it...

It's hard to describe what I do in the next bit of the process. As mentioned, I have roughed up the grainside of the toe box, coated the grainside with contact cement, allowed the cement to dry and tossed the toe boxes into the water.

In the meantime, I have peeled back the vamp exposing the liner. I trim the liner to the inside edge of the holdfast and if I am doing a "box" toe I pull the tack that held the plug in place during lasting.

Next, I peel back the liner just slightly to reveal the feather. I rough this up with a file to clear away any French chalk (talcum powder) and I rough up the corresponding area of the grain of the vamp liner. I brush some contact cement, very carefully into the feather and up on the holdast, and I brush some contact cement onto the corresponding are of the vamp liner. I leave the vamp liner peeled back to allow the cement to dry. When it is dry, I re-last it, hammering it into the feather.

Then I drive a tack partway into the top of the forepart of the last. This is a position marker...it helps me determine the length of the toe box. You can see that tack in the above illustration. I use the distance from my handle on a "00" Hammond shoemakers hammer to the end of the "pane" to gauge where the tack should go. And I add a quarter inch for box toes. But this distance is all a matter of taste to a certain extent. Some folks like long toe boxes some like short toe boxes. I like to think mine are right about in the middle.

Now I pull the toe boxes from the water and pat them dry. Over the years I have developed a certain dexterity which allows me to butt the back edge of the toe box up against the tack, pull the corners of the toe box over and under the insole, while simultaneously pulling the leading edge of the toe box over the end of the last and under the insole...this, and all the while holding these three points tight to the bottom of the insole, flipping the last over and marking where the toe box is lying over the feather...at the corners, at the toe, and several points in between. When I let go of the toe box (so that I'm no longer holding it to the last), I will have a rough outline of where the outside channel will be on the toe box and what part of the toe box will be lasting allowance.

Easier, I think, would be to take a piece of paper (mentioned as a patterning technique for toe boxes in Golding) or a relatively soft piece of leather and cut it to the same shape as the toe box. Butt the rear edge of this soft leather pattern up against the tack and wrap it around the end of the toe. Feel and mark where the feather (outside channel) is. Transfer these dimensions to the toe box itself. I recommend doing it this way because the toe box itself is relatively stiff and the soft leather pattern is not. It will be easier to manipulate.

Once the outline of the feather has been transferred to the toe box, I begin the final skiving--the fine tuning I spoke of previously. To do this, I cut a rabbet or a notch along the transferred feather line and skive the lasting allowance to reduce the substance. Don't skive it too thin here. But it should be thin enough that you can pinch it anywhere in that lasting allowance and get a fold no more than 3/16 of an inch thick. Experience will tell you when you are right. Too thick and lasting the toe box will be more difficult. Too thin and you'll tend to tear the lasting allowance as you pull it over the toe of the last.

2787.gif

This all sounds complicated but it is really not. And it is worth the trouble to work your way through it. From here on in, I've got the process pretty well covered with photos and it should be short posts and easy to understand.

If anyone has any questions ask now or later...I'll try to help as I go along.

Tight Stitches
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frommer@bootmaker.com
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"Little Jack Dandiprat, in a white petticoat,
The longer he lives the shorter he grows."