Toe boxes

[dw]

Rob,

No worries, mate. I just thought the weight of the toe box was a critical aspect that would make a difference in deciding the best approach. After all, if the toe box is to be very light weight and you want to make it stiff, all purpose i,s logically, the wrong way to go. In one sense I was reinforcing the point you made.

But bottom line, it's all just an exploration of various ways of going about making a shoe or boot. I like this kind of conversation. I'm not threatened by someone else doing it differently. I've always thought that that's when we are at our best--not only describing what we do but explaining why we do it.


Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[relferink]

DW,

Glad to hear we feel the same way about that and your right that it's all in the exchange of ideas and the explanation. Keep up the good work!

Rob

[jenny_fleishman]

Rob, thanks for the tip on U.S. Adhesives.

re all purpose vs dextrine...I realized I might want to go with all purpose for the heel counter for shoes I make for my own feet because those rigid heel counters usually mean trouble for me. But perhaps if the shoe FITS the stiff counter might be OK. No matter what I use for the heel counters, I expect to use the Dextrine to stiffen the toe boxes. Protect the toes from bad dancers (including, at times, myself)!

Jenny

[dmcharg]

Quote
"Rob
No worries mate,"

DW, you thinking of moving to Oz?

Duncan

[dw]

I could... I would... the wife just says "be sure to write..."

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[dmcharg]

Hey there's plenty of space for her too! We're almost the same size as continental USA but with only 20 million people.

Duncan 'in the middle of nowhere' [img]http://www.thehcc.org/forum/images/old_smilies/proud.gif"%20ALT=":O[/img]

[tomo]

Hi guys,
While everyones talking about and discussing toe boxes, I'd thought ask a couple of questions.

What's the best way to draft the vamp pattern for some steel toed safety shoes I'm working on, and do toe caps come in bigger sizes?

4081.jpg

More power to y'awl.

T.

[paul_k]

Tom,

Won't that still hurt, without any leather? I mean, even if you could find the right size...

PK

[dw]

Tom,

I bet you get a lot of demand for those steel toed flip-flops. Isn't there a big, super deadly spider that can bite right through heavy leather in your part of the world?



Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[relferink]

Tom,

I know the steel toes to come in sizes. Typically one size toe would span 2 shoe sizes. I am not aware of any steel toes that come in any widths. I'm not sure if there are different steel toes available for men and women or if it is just the same toe in larger or smaller sizes. The steel toes I worked with before are a little different in that they came with a rubber “gasket” a strip about ½ inch wide that attached to the end of the toe and would help in the transition. Are you going to line the shoe? Probable more comfortable for the customer.
I would get the last prepped so that the toe sits securely on the last, not doing that will allow the toe to shift as you are lasting and make the whole process so much harder. Once you have the toe of the last build up to the inside dimensions of the steel toe make a forme. This would be the perfect pattern to use for you lining.
For the vamp leather you have 2 options, add the to the the last and make another forme or on your standard you could bring your crease line up a little at the toe but leave it at the vamp point, this will account for the extra volume the toe takes up. Don't to it to much if you have to do it at all or you will have to hard a time dealing with to much material to get smoothed out around the feather edge.

If all else fails you could of course resort to the handy men's secret weapon to secure those steel toes to the flip-flops.

4093.jpg

Rob

[dmcharg]

Hey Tom,
I reckon you could sell a lot of those work thongs in Australia. They'd match the beer gut and tank top (singlet) perfectly. "For the Okker with everything"
Cheers
Duncan

[relferink]

That's going to take a lot of therapy to get that image out of my head.

[jenny_fleishman]

re Toe stiffeners-is there a point, or points, in relationship to the toes where the toe stiffener should typically end, or how do you decide how far back in the vamp the stiffener should stop? Does the toe stiffener have much to do with where the vamp creases during a stride, or is it far enough forward from the treadline that it doesn't have any effect on the creasing? Thanks.

Jenny

[jenny_fleishman]

Didn't get any nibbles on this question before, but since it seems slow on the board, I'll throw this out there one more time:

re Toe stiffeners-is there a point, or points, in relationship to the toes where the toe stiffener should typically end, or how do you decide how far back in the vamp the stiffener should stop? Does the toe stiffener have much to do with where the vamp creases during a stride, or is it far enough forward from the treadline that it doesn't have any effect on the creasing? Thanks.

Jenny


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[erickgeer]

Jenny,

The Toebox should not be far enough back to be effected by the flexing of the joint. If it was, it would either not allow flexing- or would flex in such a way as to press into the foot and cause discomfort.

Hope this helps,

Erick

Off topic: As I was writing this, "Jeapardy" is on in the background- one of the contestants stated that they have just come from "cordwaining camp"

[dw]

I have a "00" Hammond hammer that measures exactly one and one-half inches from the handle to the end of the pane. I butt the handle against the end of the last--so the toe touches the wood--and lay the pane over the toe. Where the pane ends I drive a tack. That's where the back edge of my toe box will be positioned.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[ttex]

Jenny

I lust looked in on the group and thought I would stick my nose in.

On a normal ladies toe with a normal toe hght. I measure ca 5.5 cm from the feather line on the toe. sometimes 6 if the toe is longer or high. A diabetic has a high toe box = 6.5 or more.

If you look at the last from the top and picture the met. line the toe box ends ca. 2.5- 3 cm from there. (Size 39 ueuro)

The back line of the box should almost have the same angel as the met line, just closer to 90 degrees to the center line. I ussually line it up 90 deg. and then cock it a little. Depending on the toe spring there will be some bending in the skin along the met.- line . a pump will not show as much as a shoe with lases.

A little trick to help the box not be seen is to have some glue go ca .5 cm past the edge of the box. It hides any sharp egdes that you might have missed if you are not practiced at making the box.

Get some thin strong skin for the side stiffeners and turn the rough side out away from the last. It makes it easier to shive and sand the overlap.

CW

[dw]

Interesting...5.5cm leaves the back edge of the toe box just about in the same place--depending on the profile of the toe--as my little trick with the hammer.

Only in inches!!

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[relferink]

All,

I measure the toe box length based on the length of the last, a women's size 5 gets a shorter toe box than a men's 14 (obviously) so I make sure the toe box is less than 2/3th the length of the vamp, the vamp point I find by marking 2/3th the length of the last measured along the top from the back. Depending on the height of the toe and possible deformities as hammertoes I can adjust the toe box length but never beyond the 2/3ths mark since it will hinder the flexing of the forefoot.

Rob

[jenny_fleishman]

Press cement questions, observations...

First, the most minor...I got a few small spots of press cement on the upper leather. It doesn't seem to rub off the way Barge does. Any way to get it off?

I am lasting this fitter shoe the same way I lasted my first one. Lasted the toe and heel stiffeners, trimmed the lasting margin and cemented them to the insole.

Then I lasted the upper, left it for a day and took it completely off. I then put press cement on the toe and heel stiffeners.

What I was somewhat taken aback at, the press cement really soaked into the veg tan stiffener leather (2-3 oz), and dried VERY quickly. I put it on the toe box first, and by the time I finished putting it on the heel stiffener, the toe box was almost dry. So I did another coat on the toe box, and by the time I finished that, the cement on the heel stiffener was dry, so another coat on the heel stiffener! It felt like a relay race. I did 3-4 coats on each piece, then put the upper back on and relasted it. I have no idea if the toe and heel stiffeners will even be adhering to the upper when I finally take the last out. After I finished lasting, I did hammer the upper onto the stiffeners (with a metal hammer).

But basically, I am amazed at how much the press cement soaked in and how fast it dried. Is this normal? Do you always have to put multiple coats on because it absorbs so much? Would spritzing the stiffeners with water before applying the press cement be a good/bad idea?

One more observation. WOW, the fumes are strong! Makes Barge seem like perfume.

Jenny

[dw]

Jenny,

Forgive me if I chuckle...not at you but with you. Been there, done that, bought the T-shirt. Unfortunately, I don't know anyway to get press cement off the uppers that doesn't also remove the finish on the uppers.

I generally coat my toe boxes several times with preess cement (up to seven or more times) sanding, or scraping in-between. Then I spritz the flesh side of the uppers and apply one fresh coat onto the toe box and...quickly now, quickly...pull the toes over.

If one of the purposes of press cement on a leather toe box is to help give it some stiffness, then spritzing the toe box itself seems counter intuitive...at least that's the way I see it.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[dmcharg]

Jenny,
I made a simple extractor set up for working with high fume glues. I bought a brushless computer cooling fan (about 5" diam. I think. I'm not at home) and a power point transformer (as it runs on 12volts), dug out a plank of wood the same hight as the mounting frame of the fan, cut it in half and attatched 1 piece to each side of the fan. Getting a couple of cereal boxes, I taped them end to end and over the fan, making a tube that reaches to the middle of my work bench and has an impressive amount of suck (pulling in small skivings that wander too close!). When I want to use it, I open the window in front of my bench, put the plank/fan into the gap (it takes up the entire width), close the window down on it and switch it on.
It gives me about 6" working area ahead of the tube; if the tube is round it will be a narrow area but if it's flattened and wide the work area will be correspondingly wide, and the air speed may pick up increasing the lead-in distance. To check its working area, blow out a match and see over what area it will suck in the smoke.

Hope this is usefull.

Cheers
Duncan

[jenny_fleishman]

Thanks, all. Duncan, I have made a fume exhaust booth using a bathroom vent fan, but it may not be as effective as yours. I also have ductwork to vent it out the dining room window, and then fill the rest of the window opening with a twin exhaust fan.

I'll try the match/smoke trick to test it. Maybe I can make a smaller enclosure leading up to the fan for the really nasty fumes. My original booth was made large enough so I can work with Barge and then lay the pieces on a drying rack within the booth. (Somewhere on the board I previously posted pictures of my fume control system, probably to the amusement of some....)

Jenny

[jenny_fleishman]

DW...is using press cement/Barge TOGETHER possible?

Could you use the press cement to do multiple coats to stiffen the leather toe stiffener...letting it dry and sanding it as you describe, then use Barge to cement the upper to the toe box immediately after coating them, before the Barge gets tacky? Best of both worlds, or a disaster I can't forsee??!

Jenny

[dw]

Wouldn't be a bad idea but, in my estimation, the barge would not stick to the press cement...especially long term.

But the real question is...why use the press cement at all? My teacher just used soling leather (split) for toe boxes, and all-purpose.--no press cement at all. Of course if you use upper leather for a toe box, and some do, you might want to stiffen it a bit...or not. You might be perfectly happy with the stiffening provided by a upper leather toe box cemented to the upper itself. That bonding alone, even if it is all-purpose based, is gonna provide some stiffening. I sometime do a thin...2 oz. veg...toe box and AP it. No press cement. But I'm looking for a semi-soft toe. in such circumstances. Even so I am always a bit surprised how substantial the toe box area ends up. You'd have to squeeze on it with some deliberation to dent it.

Maybe that's all you need.

And yes, you'd pull the toe over before the barge set up.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC