The Crispin Colloquy

Sometimes people ask about the weights of leather or rather a comparison between different measuring systems.
I found this on the Wickett and Craig Tannery site, www.wickettandcraig.com. It's the most comprehensive chart I've seen.


Oz. M.M. Iron Inch Decimal

1.00 oz 0.4 mm .75 1/64 .016

2.00 oz 0.8 mm 1.50 1/32 .031

3.00 oz 1.2 mm 2.25 3/64 .047

4.00 oz 1.6 mm 3.00 1/16 .063

5.00 oz 2.0 mm 3.75 5/64 .078

6.00 oz 2.4 mm 4.50 3/32 .094

7.00 oz 2.8 mm 5.25 7/64 .109

8.00 oz 3.2 mm 6.00 1/8 .125

9.00 oz 3.6 mm 6.75 9/64 .141

10.00 oz 4.0 mm 7.50 5/32 .156

11.00 oz 4.4 mm 8.25 11/64 .172

12.00 oz 4.8 mm 9.00 3/16 .188

13.00 oz 5.2 mm 9.75 13/64 .203

14.00 oz 5.6 mm 10.50 7/32 .219

15.00 oz 6.0 mm 11.25 15/64 .234

16.00 oz 6.4 mm 12.00 1/4 .250


Sorry it's come out jamed up but the site address will take you right to the source.


More Power to y'awl
T.

Good source Tom. I have several of these but I may print this one out too.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

A few insole-related questions have occurred to me recently.....

DW: what are you using these days for your insoles? Are you using the leather from Stevenson Paxton? Have you tried the stuff from Milton Sokol?

On a related note, can you tell me how deep you cut the feather on your insoles? I have had a few stitches rip out during inseaming, and I am thinking I may not have cut the feather quite deep enough. I am using a Tina insole knife (the ones with the shoulder that cut an 'L' to a specific depth), but it only cuts the shoulder/feather about 1 - 1.5 mm deep, which doesn't provide a very deep or strong holdfast.

I guess if I split my insole to a lesser weight -- I've been using the unsplit S-P insole leather, which as you know is 10 - 12 iron (admittedly probably too much for the 'city' shoes I'm making) -- this shallow feather depth might be necessary, but it would also be nearer the grain and therefore perhaps stronger. Does anyone have a rule of thumb for how deep to cut the feather -- e.g. 1/3 of the thickness of the insole, but not closer than ___ mm to the grain?

Finally, I re-read the exchange between
DW, Jake, and Al Saguto about the skived/angled feather. Do either of you (or Al, if you read this please jump in!) know if he cuts/skives the insole edge all the way to a bare edge, or does he cut/skive it, say, to only 1/2 the thickness of the insole at the edge?

As always, your thoughts and experience are appreciated.

Lance

Lance,

Yes, I'm using the S-P double shoulder insoling (and some Baker I have squirreled away).

I cut my outside channel about half the thickness of the unsplit insole. [I don't have a specific formula for this and I don't use thinner insoles even on ladies work...even though thiat flies in the face of accepted wisdom.]

The inside channel is just deep enough to submerge the stitching.

One thing to remember...half the strength of the inseam is in how wide the holdfast is. As long as the insole is long fibered enough (as in shoulder) you should be able to split the insole...how much is up to you and what you think you can handle/get away with. But, if memory serves, Al uses Baker at about six iron I think. So, when he's holing the insole, his awl is running pretty shallow.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

DW:

Yes, in that exchange, Al said he uses the Bakers 6 iron insoles. Guess it helps that it is Bakers, with their pit-tanning. I still hope to figure out how to get some of that stuff...

Do you know if Al skives/angles the edge ('feather') of his insoles all the way to a bare edge, or to say 1/2 the thichness of the insole?

(Thanks for your quick response.)

Lance

Lance,

Not an expert in this by any stretch of the imagination but I did find this drawing from school.
Dutch text but nothing to complicated, translation: pic. 1 flesh side , pic 3, 2/3 thickness, flesh side and last

You cut off the edge beveling it by connecting the lines going from 1/3 to 2/3 the thickness of the insole

Hope this helps.

Rob

(Message edited by relferink on September 05, 2006)

Lance,

I can't remember much about how Al does it...not with any confidance in my memory, at any rate.

The one time I saw him do it, I don't believe that he cut an outside channel. He may have undercut the last a tiny bit and then sort of hammered a "dent" into the side of edge of the insole about halfway in the thickness.

I don't think he cut an inside channel either...just began holing an even distance from the edge and the tip of the awl emerged in the dent.

Now, I don't know if he does this all the time...he makes historic replicas for CWF and some more modern shoes, as well...but that's the way he showed me--in fact, I still have that insole sitting around somewhere.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

To all,
I am wanting to make a pair of alligator boots. I have found many sources. My real question is not about sources, but about size. I am making a large vamp and counter cover. I am also putting collars on the tops. They are stove pipe so the collars will be fairly rectangular, 3inch by 16 inch. What size of hide Should I get? Or is it better to get two smaller hides, and what size would they be? Also what is your take on the matte finish vs. glazed?
Thanks
Shane

Shane,
I like to buy alligator and crocodile skins that are right at 55 cm. This makes them wide enough to cut a pair of vamps side by side. I can usually cut two pairs of vamps--one with the toe toward the head and one with the toe toward the tail. That uses up the complete belly of the hide with no waste.

A 55 cm skin will be around 22" wide. If I'm unsure about whether the skin will be big enough I always have my leather guy measure the skin's width across the belly. I measure my vamps side by side to see exactly how wide that skin needs to be.

I would definitely recommend a matte finish. You'll lose all of the glaze finish anyway...you might as well start with a matte since that's what you'll end up with after you've crimped and lasted it. Also, the large matte finish skins tend to have a nice weight. They're not as light-weight as the glazed. I usually line a glazed skin but never the large matte finishes. They crimp and last beautifully too.

Since you're adding a large top band you'll probably lose that second pair of vamps I mentioned in the first paragraph. Make sure you charge enough! A top band isn't normally too much extra, but if it takes the same amount of leather as a vamp it's going to cost you money to use it for a top band.

Lisa

Shane, Lisa,

I do it a little differently although I have been told that cutting both vamps from one hide...particularly with crocodile...is a very good method.

I order two 30cm+ skins. I like the smaller skins because I prefer the look of smaller tiles. I ask that they match the skins for tile pattern, as far as is possible. Some will have a very regular series of rows others will have a "cowlick" in the center. I don't want mismatched vamps. I also ask for large, clean throats.

I take my vamps out of the belly of the skin...one per...and align the toes to the head if I have a narrow toe (the tiles are smaller and easier to last) and to the tail if I have a wider or square toe. I match the vamp lengthwise on the skins as far as possible too. I want the same amount of very small tiles over each toe.

I take the counter covers out of the throats...which I sometimes have to toggle.

If I have a collar I will sometimes order a third skin (I charge extra for collars and add an additional fee if the collar is from an exotic).

I never take any boot piece out of the tails although with very good quality skins a wallet or even a belt can be made from the tail.

If you have a very large vamp (you might measure it) you could go 33cm. But 30cm wide skins generally are wide enough for all sizes.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

Lisa, D.W. ,
Thanks for the info! It is unerving to buy leather you have never used and that cost so much. This pair is for me as a show piece, so the price is on me.
Thanks again,
Shane

Its me again Ethel.
I was wondering about your thoughts on the cayman croc. Loy at Hardke says they are similar to gator belly, and that they are only 85 bucks per skin.
Thanks
Shane

Shane,

I looked at caiman. It seems, at first glance to be a "rougher" alligator. And it's certainly a good price.

I've never seen it in a pair of shoes or boots nor have I used it. But, as I said, I looked at some swatches although not from Hardtke. The center of each tile is kind of pitted, And in the center it gets kind of "boney." Now that might not make too much difference by itself but the caiman I saw would crack in that boney area if you pinched it wrong.

To quote the old Sioux chieftain in Little Big Man, "it worries me."

Maybe a different source...?


Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

D.W.
Thanks for your input. Loy from Hardke is sending a swatch. I'll be sure to give it a good bending to see if it cracks. I'll report on my findings when I find em.
Shane

This may not be the best place to post this question but since it's more specific to leather than to machines I'll start here and the powers that be can move it if they wish. I've got a friend of a friend who's looking to get some leather for boots engraved by laser. Does anyone have any experience with this and know the name of a company that makes a laser engraver that has been proven to work well with standard boot leather? Any suggestions would be appreciated as most of my experience with leathers has either been in scanning a surface or cutting all the way through something.

Bill “The Last Man Standing” Tippit
www.globalfootwearsolutions.com

Bill,

Not real sure but maybe this guy maybe can help www.greyghostgraphics.com or 866-205-9810--Jeff Mosby from Myrtle Beach area

Bill:
He could contact Tony Gaziano at Gaziano & Girling (in England) -- tony [at] gazianogirling.com; they feature shoes made with this type of laser-engraved leather.

Lance

Bill,

Awhile back I was asked to reproduce company logos on spur straps for appreciation gifts from a commercial developer to the new tenant. (I don't know why all information is relavant).

ANyway, I look the camera ready black and white art to a trophy and award shop here locally that does laser engraving, with some practice pieces. After a few tries they were able to do an excellent job lasering very fine details.

So I'd suggest contacting the locals in his area and look for someone willing to give it a try.

With Regards,
Paul

Thanks to all who have responded to my question. I reread my message and realize it's a little misleading. The guy in question is looking for this to be done in a production environment and therefore would be wanting to purchase a machine to do it in a factory. However, everyone's tips are very helpful and I will follow up all leads to try to get laser manufacturers' info and send to him. Thanks again and HAPPY THANKSGIVING TO ALL!!

Bill “The Last Man Standing” Tippit
www.globalfootwearsolutions.com

Hey All,

Have a leather selection question today.

I have been making some hiking type boots and am now looking to find a better leather for them. Unfortunately my experience is limited with anything other than the 7-8oz bullhide and 3 oz lining on my sandals.

Things I would like:
- 4-4.5 oz.
- Struck thru color.
- Resistant to abrasion.

Things I would like to avoid:
- Too much texture.
- Stretchy.

Bullhide seems ok, but not ideal as most of it is textured. Maybe something different like water buffalo or something?

Thanks for the opinions.

Paul

Paul

I use Waxy French Calf from GH Leather in Houston for my Packers and hiking boots it meets your specs except it is not struck thru.

Don

I recently received a packet of samples from a company called Ecopell.

They are a German outfit that makes a pure veg both for uppers and upper linings that is supper soft. It comes in a waxy version, a rough-out version and a top grain version. The latter is a naked finish so you can wax it or not.

It is all struck through and even the dyes used are, as I understand it, natural dues.

I've been playing with it. Even though it is soft, if it is toggled or crimped, it becomes firmer. I am not sure yet if it is firm enough to make a good brogue but it might make a nice full cut oxford or a chukka, certainly...maybe a good hiking boot--especially the rough-out or the waxy...who knows?

I like the lining very well. If you contact this fellow he will send you some samples:

manofcloth@hotmail.com

He's the NorAm rep.

Also look at this website:

http://www.schomisch.de/us/1_ecopell.htm

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

Thanks for the info.

Got a hunk of calf on the way and also samples of the ecopell. My acupuncturist really wants me to figure out how to make some hypo alergenic shoes for her chemically sensitive clients. Now it is down to the glues.

Thanks again.

Paul

Does anyone know where in Europe I can buy high quality calf chrome tanned annaline coloured leather for uppers? I tried Tanneries de Puy,Annonay and others, but they don't respond to E mail or do not sell small quantaties, only per drum (about 1000sq ft). So who knows any agents or wholesalers? England, Germany, France...?

Alexander

Alexander:

Try A&A Crack in Northampton.

They sell to the bespoke and factory trade in England and also sell to individuals.



A & A Crack & Sons
16, Pennard Close
Brackmills Industrial Estate
Northampton
Northamptonshire
NN4 7BE

phone: (0)1604 874422

http://sitebuilder.yell.com/sb/show.do?id=SB0003209474000180

If you find any other good options, perhaps you will be so kind as to post them here!

Lance