Boot Leathers

[paul]

Lisa and DW,

I just received my samples of kid skins from the Shrut and Asch, and Hardtke companies. A number of choices. Hardtke didn't have what I was looking for but S and H did. Wow, what a great variety of colors they have! Customer loved the color I showed her and I've ordered it.

I ordered a few other skins for future work with inlays. I haven't done many yet, only a few jobs. But I've got some orders pending now , so I'll be getting the skive knife you recommend, DeeDub, and doing some practice. I understand the fundamentals, but I might have to ask for some additional coaching from you both. And, of course, anyone else is welcome to add to the lessons as well, as always.

Thanks again for the leads.

PK

[erickgeer]

Has anyone ever worked with Newberger Bros. in Chicago?
I went there once several years ago, and was not too impressed, but I just took a look at their website:

http://www.newbros.com/main.htm

The description sounds like they might be a good source for calf and other skins (they probably have minimum order requirements).

Erick

[dw]

Erick,

I bought from them years ago...I mean years ago. I can't remember anything remarkable about them one way or the other--nothing particularly good, nothing particularly bad. I don't think they had a minimum.

Best thing to do is either call them or email them and ask for samples. If you call, ask them if their calf is "struck through" and what weights it comes in, colours, and finish. Those are the key issues.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[walrus]

Erick and All
Penny Nash from Newberger Bros. Will be coming to the HCC meeting and will talk about what kind of leathers they carry and how they will work with Custom Shoe & Boot makers.They have been in business over the 80 years.They will have a sampling of the leathers they offer as well .I have delt with both Penny and Newberger Bros. off and on sence the late 60's.
Come to the meeting and meet them.
All interested in coming please let us know so we can make accommodations for everyone .Check announcments on the bulliton board you can call or email us and let us know you are coming. Phone 1.262.882.6006 Email larry@walrusshoe.com .See you all there.

Larry Waller HCC Board Member
Walrus Shoe & Leather Co.LLC
Host of the 2004 HCC Meeting

[paul w.]

I have a roll of corfam. It was the rage for a short period of time in the 70's. As a new student to bootmaking does corfam have any use today.i had been useing it as a cover for my front counter. It does take stitces quite well and is fairly pliable.


Thanks

Paul

[dlamson]

I am looking for a supplier of top quality waterproof leather in both black and white for golf shoes. Does anyone have an idea?
Thanks,
Don Lamson

[Lisa Cresson]

I hear Westan is out of business. Can anyone direct me to a source for buying a bunch of insole and outsole to tide me over?

Thanks,
Lisa

[Craig Corvin]

What leather does everyone use for lining? I'm looking for something nicer than the pig I've been using.

Thanks,
Craig

[dw]

Craig,

Depends upon what kind of footwear you are making and where in the boot or shoe the lining leather is located.

Many of the finders offer various linings from cream cow to kangaroo. And I buy specialty linings from several sources.

Give us some indication of where and how it will be used and maybe I (or someone else) can come up with something more specific.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[Craig Corvin]

I'm fairly new to shoemaking so pretty much any information on the topic would be helpful!

For a men's dress shoe, what choices would you make for the non-slip, the lining of the quarters and the vamp?

How would these choices differ if you were making a boot?

If you're working with, for example, a customer with a damp foot, how would that effect your choices?

Thanks,
Craig

[dw]

Craig,

I can't answer for most shoemakers. they may have different requirements than I do. But as a bootmaker who sometimes makes a shoe or two, I would think that a chrome kangaroo would be almost ideal if you were making a lightweight dress shoe. Hardtke carries a chrome lining 'roo...or did.

I've seen veg tan goat and kid used in shoes especially around the quarter...maybe something else in the forepart (like cloth of all things).

I get a nice veg tan calf in about a 3 ounce that might be suitable for the whole shoe from Harvey Boutin. I use that same leather to line my full cuts (a two piece boot).

I also like a nice yellow calf I get from Corral/Ebinger but it *can* bleed yellow dye under the right (?) circumstances. And almost any finder will have a cream orthopedic horse or cream cow lining in various weights.

You need to decide how heavy you want the lining (and, hence, the whole shoe) to be and then you need to decide whether you want the leather to be soft to the hand or firm. The main thing is to avoid any leather that is "glazed" as this will prevent the lining from breathing.

I generally line the foot of a dress wellington style with a nice soft cream cow in 3-4 ounce. Then I line the tops with a firmer calf in about a three ounce. As mentioned, I line my full cuts with veg calf. This latter ends up looking and feeling like a pretty high class English lining kip...which, BTW, is another suggestion especially for the quarters of a top shelf bespoke shoe.

Hope this helps...if you need addresses...narrow it down and I (or someone else) will see what I can do.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[Craig Corvin]

Thanks for all the great information!

One additional question about the different types of leather - With pig being on the low end of moisture absorption, where do kangaroo, goat and calf fit in?

The veg tan calf from Harvey Boutin sounds interesting and the roo from Hardtke - do you have contact info for the sources of those two?

Also, if I wanted to go all out and try some English lining kip, are there any sources for that?

Thanks again,
Craig

[dw]

Craig,

Here ya go...

Charles Hardtke, Inc.
1-915-590-0088
11040 Argal Court
El Paso, Texas 79935
Ask for Loy

Enlish Lining kip...

Stevenson Paxton Sales
12-E Pamaron Way
Ignacio, CA 94949
(800) 648-1622
Ask for Dave Foster

And I don't have Boutin's address right handy. Maybe someone else can provide it or I'll try to remember to copy it off and post it here later today. In any case here is the telephone number:

Harvey Boutin
510-569-6100
Ask for Javier and order the "Columbus Naturell" in a 3 oz.

Hope that helps

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[Craig Corvin]

Thanks D.W. for the info! - Craig

[dw]

Just a quick note to tell anyone who's scratching around for insole shoulders and/or outsoles, I just received some insole shoulder from Stevenson-Paxton that I thought was pretty nice. I haven't given it a long term trial but it cut nicely, and formed to the bottom of the last very well. It was also thick enough for my purposes which, considering it was a shoulder, surprised me a little bit.

Also got some outsoling from S-P that looks pretty good...it will probably make good heel stiffeners and toe boxes and heel lifts, if nothing else. I haven't had a chance to put it to the test yet but again it looks pretty good.

Both are worth a look at any rate especially if you're not satisfied with what you are getting now. Give Dave a call...the number is listed in the post above.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[lancepryor]

To anyone interested in the insole shoulders and soling bends:

I spoke with Dave at Stevenson Paxton. He said to call their Texas location and to ask for Steve Higgins -- (866) 377-2469.

Lance

[dw]

A quick follow-up...I received an insole shoulder from Stevenson-Paxton (Texas branch) today. It was labeled 9-10 iron but it was a full quarter inch thick, and then some, over most of the shoulder--that's 11-12 iron by my charts.

More importantly, it looks as good as the cut insoles of the same stuff I received earlier in the month. In fact, I needed to trim some of the neck off and the stuff cut like butter.

In the same breath, I have to say that I was disappointed in the Argentinian "insole bend" I got from another source. It was hard as flint. Good for counters heel stiffeners) and heel lifts, though.

But especially in this market, all we can do is try out new sources and forge (and hopefully share) our own opinions of the material as we use it. I hope no one is depending on me for a definitive recommendation...at least not yet...I'm just as much at sea as everyone else in the wake of Westan's demise. I do believe however that these insole shoulders promise to be even better than what I was getting from Westan. Not as good as Baker, perhaps, but real good. Only time will tell.

Again, just my (preliminary) two cents...

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[dw]

Follow-up on my follow-up.

I cut, channeled, and inseamed a pair of insoles from the insole shoulder I receieved from S-P (mentioned above).

I had nothing but good experience with it. It cut niccely, moulded to the bottom of the insole with no problem, and channeled and holed with ease.

I have not yet tried the skirting from Hermann Oak, nor the skirting from Muir and McDonald (although I want to) but I can say that the S-P Mexican insole shoulders are at least as good...and, in my mind, better...than the insole bellies we were getting from WestTan.

On another note, Milton-Sokol is offering 10-11 iron, pit tanned, chestnut soling bends at a *very* reasonable price. The leather looks very good...very clean and very consistant...although it is not "rolled."

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[paul]

Hello all,

Sure has been quiet around, huh?

Anyway, what I need is a camel. Well the leather actually. My customer would like to compare the price. Would someone be willing to share a suppliers name? Sure would appreciate it.

TIA, PK

[J.Lorenz]

I would like to get into shoe and bootmaking. I am wondering if there is a one stop shop for the cobbler, cordwainer and the bootmaker. Like soling leather and steel shanks or insoles that wick moisture anyway the list goes on. I have found a few sources that carry one or two items, but have yet to find a place to fill my shopping cart.
I know this is a vague and annoying question but I am a greenhorn, please understand.
Thank you very much, for reading my question!
J.Lorenz

[sharon_raymond]

Does anyone know a source for black 2-3 oz. vegetan leather? Thanks, Sharon

[paul_k]

Sharon,

Give Glenn a call at Wickett and Craig. 1 800-8266379 x 222

They will split their carving or skirting leather down to whatever weight you wish at no extra charge. It's available in Black and Russet.

Then again, there's black veg roo, but you'd be under 3 ounce most likely. Try Jim Downey for that at 928 442 3638.

[dw]

One thing...a word of caution really...and I have this from numerous authorities in the field (as well as practical, and regretted, experience)--be sure that the leather is *not* "dry split" as this will reduce the tensile strength of the leather more than the relative thickness that is being split away.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC


(Message edited by dw on April 11, 2006)

[paul_k]

That's interesting DW. What more do you know about that?

[dw]

Paul,

I had a long discussion with Skip Horween about this because I had asked for a four ounce side and all they had was a six ounce. At the time I was still smarting from losing a bit of work and leather after I had split both water buffalo and french calf using my skiving machine. I had tried to take a four ounce french calf down to roughly two and a half or three ounces and was alarmed when the stuff ripped apart with a lot less effort than it should have. And my alternate of water buffalo was so weak as to be scary. The french calf was usable for binding and sidewelt, etc., but it was wholly chrome tanned while the water buffalo was a veg retan. Even so, I wouldn't have wanted to make vamps out of the french calf.

I was, as I say, astonished. If we go by the "common wisdom" that the corium (grain surface) is the strongest and best leather, then one would think that as long as the grain was there, intact, the better part of the strength would be there too. But it wasn't...not by a long shot.

So when Skip suggested that he would split some for me, I asked him about it and he told me that although he felt going from 6 to 4 ounce would be OK, it was well known in the industry that dry splitting weakened a leather badly. Since then I have had others who are in the leather business confirm this...most recently Dave Foster of Stevenson-Paxton who I consider to be very knowledgeable and not one to be cagey just to make a sale, if you know what I mean.

The funny thing is...according to Skip...they can take the very same raw material that will end up being six ounce and somewhere in the pre-tanning or tanning process, split it to four ounce and it will be fine--very strong . But once it's tanned splitting it destroys the interlocking network of fibers and what's left can be as brittle as paper. I think this is particularly true of veg tans or retans.

I'm not leather scientist or chemist so I can't do any better than pass on what I've been told and experienced. Maybe Wickett and Craig have a way of splitting that circumvents this problem and I will be the first to admit that I've split 10 and 12 ounce saddle leathers many times to 6 and 8 ounce but once we start dealing with 2, 3, and 4 ounce weights, well...I'd be very cautious if it were me.

I hope this helps and doesn't make folks unreasonably nervous. I regularly crimp 2 1/2 -3 ounce veg tans for full wellingtons (which results in a great deal of stress being applied to the leather) and actually prefer it to chrome tans.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC