Hand Wax / Coad

[SharonKudrle]

mortar and pestle is for the rosin only. you crush it like indigo into a fine powder.
mix it with beeswax in a different vessel.
the other way will rip off the head bristles, and i don't think Sally meant for it to be used that way. hazmat situation. ask youknowho.

[wsbailey]

Kiln Burned Pine Tar 773 is no longer available from Auson. I got an email from Noxudol today saying that it has been discontinued due to lack of raw materials. They suggested that many customers have switched to Genuine Pine Tar 850. They wrote: "This is a more raw product, has a dark brown color and viscosity is stickier than kiln burned".

[das]

Try these folks: http://www.northwestpitchworks.com/

[SharonKudrle]

Which of the three grades do you use, Al?

Thank you for the pitch source. I've been substituting tar because I couldn't find pitch to make my black wax, and you've written that it is not good for that purpose.

[wsbailey]

I prefer to make my own pitch from pine tar.

[SharonKudrle]

If you do, I think Al liked tar from tarsmell dot com "the real stuff" is the product name, but I think he wrote that it is not a substitute for pitch. I've used it, but I'll try the pitch now, I am aiming for penetration and adherence.

[wsbailey]

The pine tar has to be cooked to make pitch. I found there is a certain point when the level in the pan doesn't seem to move much. That's when I stop.

[wsbailey]

If you do, I think Al liked tar from tarsmell dot com "the real stuff" is the product name, but I think he wrote that it is not a substitute for pitch. I've used it, but I'll try the pitch now, I am aiming for penetration and adherence.

Search tarsmell and you'll see that Al thought the opposite.

[das]

I have not personally used Northwest Pitchworks stuff yet. It'a a fairy "new" source. I'd get samples of all 3 grades and see which work, best. It's supposedly solid chunk form like the old Rausch Naval Stores stuff. Softer chunks are better, means less adulterating necessary with beeswax/oil/tallow. I have never had any luck transmuting liquid pine tars into solid pitch, though others seem to have done that alchemy.

[SharonKudrle]

Thank you for the nudge. In the post below DAS is the HCC signature for Al Saguto and makes it easier to search quotes from his posts.

My notes from 3/21/2008 Lance Prior and Bill Bailey say tarsmell and Auson are the same product and Bill Bailey listed tarsmell as a source. In 5/8/2011 Geraldine Rabey was boiling it to reduce it and it caught fire, so be forewarned.

DAS: At one point 2/17/2009 For occasional use, and small quantities, I'd almost recommend you use the aromatic "Stockholm" tar semi-liquid ("The Real Stuff" brand from CA works and smells the best) and mix it with hard chunk rosin to "make" pitch, then experiment from there to make wax. BTW, last time I shopped for chunk pine rosin, what I got was "gum rosin" from Brazil or SA someplace. The distilled turpentine industry in the USA is totally gone, so none of its by-products (pine-tar, -pitch, -rosin) are made here anymore *sniffle*. "

DAS 12/1/2011 is also an interesting comparison of Auson, Rausch and Tarsmell.

DAS: 12/9/2009 Wax-making is a bit of alchemy and good luck. You sound like you're on the right track, but as I've never worked with your rosin, pitch, beeswax myself, ratios and proportions are a "?". Yes, "black" is indicative of too much pitch/tallow/oil, or not enough bleaching effect from taffy-pulling--color should be medium brownish with copper or bronze tendency. On the thread it should look like amber varnish, if that's a known color to you.

The pitch is the binder and adhesive that sticks the rosin to the thread, i.e. the stickiness. The beeswax is the softening agent for various climates. I've never heard of adding turps to wax. One, it's flammable, and two it's a drying agent--it'll dry/change overnight into a skin or gummy substance after the volatile parts evaporate, so not a good candidate for wax IMO.

My latest wax (Chinese "Swedish" pitch and "Stockholm" tar, etc.) have reversed my age-old base ratio from 2 part pitch to 1 part rosin (based on the now defunct Rausch Naval Stores pitch and rosin), to 2 parts rosin to 1 part pitch, the pitch is that soft now. Nothing is written in stone as long as the result "works" right.

Not sure what you're getting at by "penetration". The wax doesn't really soak into the thread like a liquid, it merely coats it. If you "skein-up" you hand-sewing threads from individual strands of #10 hemp (as you should not be using pre-twisted stuff), you should wax the thread before you twist it, so there's wax inside the twisted cordage. Then wax the outsides. I hook my thread in the middle on a hook on the wall, and holding both "taws" (tips where the bristles will go) taut in my left hand, I briskly rub the twisted thread down hard with a folded scrap if leather pinched over it to burnish the surface smooth. This action, through heat and friction, also melts the wax deeper into the thread. Try it, it might give you the "penetration" you're seeking.
DAS also wasn't enthusiastic about the term "penetration" as ascribed to shoe wax and he is right, but I do try to get it as deeply into the thread as possible which is why dry spun is preferable to wet spun flax as it can get further into the flax fiber because wet spinning slicks and compresses the fibers.

J. Melkersson's posts of 3/28/2011 and 3/29/2011 are interesting descriptions of the properties of swedish pitch and tar.

DAS 4/1/2011 is a superb listing of old shoe wax recipes.

Just for added interest, in Foxfire #4 there is a chapter/article with photos on old fashioned US tar making by Dale Ferguson.

In summary: Vesta Pech pitch seemed to be the gold standard, though White Sea & Baltic Co. and Rausch were also was noted as excellent. Gugolz was not. Pechpiering and pshiffspeche were noted but unendorsed. Ling Fu pitch was described as tenacious but not as good as Vesta Pech. If Al suggests trying the new pitch source I'll do it. I am trying to sum up what I’ve taken away from this thread to date, so please correct my errors, and if what you are doing works for you, that is great!
Sharon

[wsbailey]

This quote from dw is the one I was thinking about:

"I recently received some of each--Real Stuff and Auson's Dark Pine Tar. Al Saguto recommended the Auson in preference to the Real Stuff. And I have to say that not only do I like the smell of the Auson better (the real Stuff smells too creosote-y), for my tarred felt experiments the Real Stuff is markedly inferior. "

One thing I would add to the quote you give; we do have a rosin industry in the US. I just bought another 10 pounds from them. I like it better than the Brazil rosin.

http://www.diamondgforestproducts.com

[SharonKudrle]

I don't know if the Real Stuff and Auson's are the same product sold under different names as alleged, but I would like to try some of the recommended pitch as all I've had to work with is tar until now. I with I had some of the Vesta Pech or the White Sea from Leeds to compare for waxmaking.

Thank you for the link to the US rosin, I'll buy some from them or from you if you can spare a small amount. I'm happy with my white wax mix 'though it contains modern whitener, but I'm still not happy with my black wax.

I love your sandal-making DVD and I learned lots from it.

[wsbailey]

I don't know if they are same or not. I started with the Real Stuff (quart) and then I bought the Auson kiln burned (3 liter). Thanks to this group my technique has improved. I heated the Real Stuff too high and it smoked like a chimney. I heated the Auson at a lower temperature and it made some good pitch. It turned out softer which Marc Carlson says is a good thing. I'm running low on the Auson kiln burned so I'll probably try their Genuine Pine Tar (dark).

[wsbailey]

Diamond G sells small amounts and they are also on eBay.

[SharonKudrle]

Thank you. So far I'm using ballet rosin from a local store. It would be nice to compare.

[dw]

I'm coming late to this conversation and not going to comment on the 'technical' aspects. That said, I don't believe that Vesta Pech is still available. It was made in East Germany and when the Berlin Wall fell, so did the company. I still have about two dozen+ cubes of it. But it's old and cannot be used 'as is' anymore.

I bought a 15" x' 10" x 4" brick of pitch from Rausch Naval Yards some 50 years ago. I'm still working on it. It was unequivocally black. 'Black as pitch', as who should say. Also bought the same volume of rock rosin at roughly at the same time.

I have made lots of hand wax according to a recipe that I received / derived from DAS....two parts pitch to one part rosin plus beeswax and / or cod oil to taste. It never turned out as 'blond' / amber as all that but it always worked---wasn't soft or gooey and didn't flake off the thread.

I don't use linen or hemp much anymore--none of it is worth the effort, IMO, as it is almost universally processed on cotton combing machines and as a result the staple is seldom longer than two inches...if that. I prefer dacron (for a number of reasons), so my requirements have changed yet somehow the basic formula has remained and when I get the recipe right, I still get a good 'tack'...which is, aside from the antibacterial properties inherent in the pine pitch/rosin...not relevant with dacron...ll you really need hand wax to be.

[dw]

I might add by way of a postscript that if memory serves...and after all these years and at my age, there's no guarantee that it does...the head guy at Rausch once told me that pitch was obtained through an anaerobic burning of the wood itself. I suspect the end result is pine tar in its liquid form and further heat drives off the turp to create a semi solid. In retrospect, it strikes me that the 'anaerobic' part was significant, however, and maybe the reason the pitch was black.

[wsbailey]

It's easy to make pine tar. All you need is a paint can, a smaller can and some fatwood. Dig a hole big enough for the small can to fit flush with the ground. Punch some holes on the inside of the paint can and fill it with fatwood, then close the lid. Put the paint can on top of the small can. Light a fire around the paint can and let it burn for a couple of hours. In the end there will be some pine tar in the small can and charcoal in the paint can.

[dw]

^
Yes, there are several videos on YouTube that show the process on a larger scale...involving a large pile of wood and a drip line and all of it covered with dirt, IIRC.

[SharonKudrle]

I found an article this morning about pine tar, one of the tar making methods at the bottom of the page says the method results is low in pitch content. I wonder if they have information on making pitch? The article is by Theodore Kaye and it is titled: Pine Tar: History and Uses and it is on the San Francisco Maritime National Park Association website. Here is the link:

https://maritime.org/conf/conf-kaye-tar.htm

[wsbailey]

Google "naval stores" for lots of information on pine tar and pitch.

[licere]

What are people's thoughts or experience on using black German chaser's pitch (used by jewelers and metalsmiths for cold working) as an ingredient in hand wax? I know of at least one variety (Otto Frei) in which the pitch itself is proper black pine pitch. The mixture also contains an oil (for malleability) and a "filler", which is probably powdered charcoal or plaster of Paris. The filler ingredient is the only thing that concerns me, but it might also be innocuous.

[homeboy]

No experience with it! Sorry!

[das]

If it contains any bitumen (coal tar pitch), it will not have the necessary amount of sticky/tackiness to make good wax. Have added pine tar to bitumen myself, in vain, trying to improve it--it's just a waste of tar IMO. At the moment several folks are trying to reduce The Real Stuff (pine tar, Google it) into pitch by slow heating to burn-off the VOCs. For individuals' small amounts needed, this may prove a viable option.

[dw]

I had a contact years ago for a supplier of pitch use primarily in engraving blocks. The pitch came in several consistencies. I never ordered any because it wasn't significantly different from the Rausch pitch I bought years ago. That said, I am near-as-nevermind certain that it was dead ringer (if perhaps a bit more 'refined'). I suspect that even with a fairly brittle engravers pitch, one could simply melt it with a bit of Real Stuff to 'temper' it.

FWIW....