Hand Wax / Coad

[dw]

Some possible sources :

https://www.ottofrei.com/German-Black-P ... -4-Lbs-Tub

https://www.riogrande.com/product/mediu ... tch/118260

http://www.northwestpitchworks.com/

[dw]

One other thought...FWIW...most engraver's pitch, and, I suspect most commercially available pitch have binders added. In the case of engraver's pitch it, anything from brick dust to talcum powder to clay. Old-tyme recipes specified rabbit dung. The brick dust in particular seems like it would be abrasive to linen fibers.

I don't believe the Rausch pitch or the sailor's / shipbuilder's pitch (or the pitch that the 'dead guys' used) had such additives, I don't know. But I neither see anything out of the ordinary at the bottom of the melting pan, nor feel anything untoward when working it. So, it occurs to me that boiling off the VOCs from Stockholm Tar might be the best (only?) way to get something close the Rauch.

[martin]

Don't know if this is of any help but here in Germany there's http://www.pechpiering.de/ who reportedly are in business since 1795 and among other things produce various sorts of (shoemaker's) pitch. Website is in German only, but go to Produkte -> Spezialpeche and scroll down to Sattler- und Schusterpeche.
If needed I can help out with language/ordering problems.

[licere]

Thanks DW, das and martin!

The Otto Frei source was the one I was referring to. I don't think it contains any bitumen, but it definitely contains binder, and I can see how that might be abrasive. I do have some stockholm tar on hand, so I will try reducing that first, and see how it works.

[nickb1]

I've been reading this thread with interest... sorry to be arriving late on the handwax scene ... but I can't readily see where some key questions are resolved regarding the inclusion of pitch in the recipe. I've been using wax made with just rosin, beeswax and tallow, (I assume, because everything is molten at 50C in the oven), but I read that pine pitch should be included for antifungal and antibacterial properties ... and always was before pitch became scarce. On the other hand, reading about Rosin, it seems to have antifungal and antibacterial properties. So ... is there any evidence (either direct or historical from sources) or other good reason to belive that omitting the pitch makes an inferior wax, in terms of rot resistance?
If so I may to start dabbling in the dark arts of pitch.
Secondly some handwax is available from Germany that is black - am I right in thinking this is unlikely to be made with pine pitch, as the final colour should really be a dark amber?
Thanks.

[SharonKudrle]

Oven? Thats not the norm, I think.

[nickb1]

@SharonKudrle
Well, it worked ;-) I had to rejuvenate some that had gone rock hard, so just melted it down in an ovenproof pot adding a lump of beeswax. Since it was all melted at 50 there was no need to pour into water etc I just waited until I could scoop it out of the tub by hand and worked it by taffy-pulling. AOK but contains no pitch...

[das]

Historically, of course, nobody knew of the anti-microbial properties of pine pitch "officially" until the 20th century--when they started painting horses leg wounds with pine tar for healing, I can't say. But, that having been said, historical formulas (c.1600-1900) call for pine pitch, pine rosin, and a tiny tallow or oil to temper (soften) it to the season. Beeswax is a lubricant--rosin is sticky. Shoemakers' wax needs to be sticky. I'm afraid if too much beeswax is mixed with rosin alone, the resulting wax will be closer to "masheen" (a white wax made of beeswax, rosin, white lead), used only for fine and decorative stitching up women's (wood) heel covers. All the pre-made shoemakers' wax from Germany (i.e. Vesta Pech) I've ever used seems to be made with coal tar pitch (bitumen), not pine pitch. I believe the traditional method of melting the pitch, rosin, etc. in an iron kettle over a fire was, as Rees says IIRC, to melt and combine all the ingredients well. The fact that he also says you must press the air bubbles out (under the water) suggests it was brought at least to a simmer to get bubbles (the flash point is once it starts smoking!). Not sure an oven would heat it high enough. These old formulas are like your granny's cookie recipe--you must follow them exactly if you want to recreate her delicious cookies.

[das]

PS--100% pine tar is still readily available, and some are having satisfactory results cooking that down into chunks of pine-tar-pitch to make wax from.

[nickb1]

Thanks @das. I understand the authentic historical recipes all seem to use pitch. But I still have the question I started with - how sure are we that omitting the pitch makes an inferior wax, in terms of rot resistance? Concerning stickiness the rosin and beeswax (and tallow) handwax is locking the stitches nicely and if you put it down mid stitch, you have to give it a yank to get it going again. How sticky is sticky enough? I've no idea how much beeswax there is in it, since I just bought it from a saddlery supplies store. It was a brittle brown lump when I bought it, and now a pale bronze colour that starts to become tacky in the hand, smelling strongly of pine. I note that Carreducker state a mix of 2:3 rosin to beeswax by weight with a tiny amount of tallow, it doesn't have the strong pine smell of this stuff.
I note that black handwax is being sold by bagpipe suppliers, citing recipes on this site, made with the boiled down pine tar. This may be my next port of call ... since it would be 'not safe for relationship' to start boiling down tar in the kitchen or yard! Though I wonder why it is black not dark brown ...

[dw]

I'm speculating here...although I did talk extensively to the folks at Rausch Navel Yards years ago....in any case, I suspect the pitch is the difference between brittle, flakes-off-the-thread, wax and a hand wax that doesn't. I have seen with my own eyes that pitch will 'slump'--it's a slow melt, really. But rosin never will. Maybe just that little bit of residual turp makes the difference.

PS...Oh, and I taffy pull my hand wax made from pitch, rosin, small amount of beeswax and some cod oil and it turns a nice bronze colour. Which, over time, segues into a darker, even 'blackish' colour.

FWIW...

[nickb1]

The west end guys say they never have problems with inseams breaking before their time. But they are making high value items for wealthy clients, who will wear them in the office or when chauffeured to and from a restaurant occasionally. Perhaps we need an experiment on the functional (for the finished shoe, as opposed to the shoemaking) aspects of the different waxes. The left foot to be made with a handwax containing pitch and the right with a blond wax with no pitch. After 20 years of regular use we cut them apart to see how the threads are doing. Any volunteers?
Alternatively, maybe an experiment using the different threads as garden twine holding together structures on an allotment. After a couple of years they should have been subject to a whole load of weathering, rain bacteria and spores, not to mention freezing and thawing. From personal experience in damp, rainy Britain, unwaxed jute barely lasts a year.

[dw]

The west end guys say they never have problems with inseams breaking before their time. But they are making high value items for wealthy clients, who will wear them in the office or when chauffeured to and from a restaurant occasionally. Perhaps we need an experiment on the functional (for the finished shoe, as opposed to the shoemaking) aspects of the different waxes.

I beg your pardon (and I say this with kindness and respect) but to my mind this is part of the problem with preserving the Traditions and Techniques of the Trade. And, even moreso, for the Average Joe, in appreciating hand welted shoes.

What most people fail to recognize is that this "experiment" has already been done...over and over again across 10,000 years (or at least 500) and thousands and thousands of makers.

Pitch is made, rosin is found. Shoemakers have had access to both time-out-of-mind.

We, as a culture, tend to overlook the long steady evolution of the Trade and all that it implies. We tend to be constantly asking questions for which the answers have long since been provided--through blood, sweat and tears. Through trial and error, if nothing else. Asking questions that really...with just a little perspective and humility...don't need to be asked. We forget that the "Old Dead Guys" knew about rosin, knew about pitch, knew about jute, hemp, silk, linen and cotton...and tried them all, in all possible combinations. Etc., etc,. ad infinitum, ad nauseum.

Why did the Trade evolve as it did? Why did certain techniques, receipts, materials, even philosophies, subsume all the competing resources? Why did Homo Sapiens Sapiens subsume / supplant Homo Neanderthalensis? Same question really. (hint: the answer is not 'by chance')

I see this all the time on that other forum I mentioned in the 'bottoming' discussion. People today have no sense of History and the sacrifices that have brought us here. We're a culture (world wide but esp. here in the States) of solipsists--people so wrapped up in ourselves and our own lives that we think we are something new on the world stage, and everything that came before can, and should, be dismissed as irrelevant. If only because the old ways tend to require more of us, physically, intellectually, in terms of focus, than the new. Most of which ends up being a dead end, if not the precursor to tragedy and loss. (viz GY welting vs. hand welting).

And that, my friends, is the rant of the day. I did not post this to criticize or to single out anyone. @nickb1 remarks just invoked a stream-of-consciousness up-welling of a somewhat jaundiced eye.

FWIW...

[nickb1]

@dw
No offence taken, I certainly agree with what you are saying here concerning the problematic context (e.g. the luxury goods market, and our contemporary ignorance of traditional crafts and trades). On reflection I also agree with what you say about such questions as I've been asking. It's probably what psychologists call 'motivated reasoning' on my part that pitch may not be not necessary for maximal longevity; it's unlikely that the past shoemakers would have bothered to include it, apart from in the white wax that @das mentioned for ladies shoes, if in their long, accumulated experience it didn't improve things. I was hoping the way it improved things was primarily in the making process rather than the finished product. The only source I can see for pine pitch in the UK is a traditional boatyard supplier that only sells it (it being "swedish pitch" that probably is not actually swedish pitch) in packs of 25kg https://www.traditionalboatsupplies.com ... pitch.html. I think it would still be good to have a better understanding of how and why pitch makes a better wax. If we knew that perhaps someone could ways to substitute for a lack of it? Someone reported in earlier posts that the pechpiering wax is made using oak pitch. I guess we don't know either how this compares to pine pitch, or even if it really is oak pitch ...

[das]

As I understand it, the rosin is the necessary "adhesive", so critical to shoemakers' wax that it's inclusion was mandated by law (1603 Great Leather Act); the pitch is the (chemically compatible) "binder" that adheres the rosin to the thread, making it malleable without undermining the adhesive nature of the rosin. Other additives like tallow, oil, or more recently beeswax (in very modest amounts) merely tempers the pitch/rosin, making it softer in the cold weather so it won't flake off the thread. If too much oil/tallow is used, the wax may very abruptly turn to a jet black goo that cannot be corrected by adding more pitch/rosin again. It's only been in the past 40 years some have switched to adding just a dash of beeswax in place of oil/tallow, because it is more forgiving, and won't suddenly spoil a whole kettle full of hard to obtain pitch/rosin. We usually cook-up 8-10 lbs. at once--losing that much pitch/rosin to too much oil/tallow would be terrible, hence we switched to beeswax.

[dw]

@nickb1 That pitch from traditionalboatsupplies looks interesting although they don't supply a more detailed description or even better, a photo of it outside the box. I bought a similar amount of pitch from Rausch Naval Yards here in the US years ago--it has lasted me for nigh onto 50 years.

it's unlikely that the past shoemakers would have bothered to include it,

Not sure that's correct...if I understand you . Every old time receipt that I've ever seen specified pitch. And pitch would have been there from the shipbuilding Trade probably well back into the mists of time...and for much the same reason--to preserve and waterproof cordage.

[dw]

As I understand it, the rosin is the necessary "adhesive", so critical to shoemakers' wax that it's inclusion was mandated by law (1603 Great Leather Act); the pitch is the (chemically compatible) "binder" that adheres the rosin to the thread, making it malleable without undermining the adhesive nature of the rosin. ...

...If too much oil/tallow is used, the wax may very abruptly turn to a jet black goo that cannot be corrected by adding more pitch/rosin again. It's only been in the past 40 years some have switched to adding just a dash of beeswax in place of oil/tallow, because it is more forgiving, and won't suddenly spoil a whole kettle full of hard to obtain pitch/rosin. We usually cook-up 8-10 lbs. at once--losing that much pitch/rosin to too much oil/tallow would be terrible, hence we switched to beeswax.

Pretty much what I thought too from my experience...see my post yesterday at 4:54pm...although having it confirmed is gratifying. The bit about adding too much tallow or oil is very interesting. I've been lucky that way but my recipe came from you originally so maybe just a wise source.

[nickb1]

it's unlikely that the past shoemakers would have bothered to include it,

Not sure that's correct...if I understand you . Every old time receipt that I've ever seen specified pitch. And pitch would have been there from the shipbuilding Trade probably well back into the mists of time...and for much the same reason--to preserve and waterproof cordage.

Well, that's about what I wanted to say, I'm not disagreeing...
If I were a young aspiring shoemaker I would be tempted to buy the 25kg of pitch. Alas I'm a hobbyist about to hit 50! For the quantities I will likely need, to make 2-3 pairs a year, I think it makes a lot more sense to get small samples of readymade from e.g. pechpiering or bagpipe suppliers. Or maybe boil down some pine tar if I can find a way to do it that won't pollute the neighbourhood.
But if anyone else is interested in the 25kg from the boatyard ... note that it seems to be the last one they have in stock.

[nickb1]

Just to follow up on this ... I just obtained a lump of threadwax from the German 'Pechpiering' producer mentioned by @martin, namely "Schusterpech PP 75 TSWZ". I'm not sure if Pechpiering retail, and they did not respond to my enquiry (in English). I had to get this from a shoemaking outfit: https://www.eins-a-schuhe.com/. Concerning the product it's a very, very dark brown, looks black on the thread after burnishing, goes on nicely with little or no flaking off with a little warming in the pocket. It's stickier than the blond, pitchless wax I have been using till now. The seller describes this as "original and traditional". Does not smell like there is any tar in it. Smells lovely in fact, pine plus something else dark and woody. I'm of course motivated to believe this is the real thing ...

The sellers also quote a recipe from 1837 "for all those who want to make cobblers' pitch themselves" but do not state the source, perhaps @das would have an idea where this comes from?

"1/3 linseed oil and 1/8 yellow wax are now added to the shoemaker's, saddler's or Riemer pitch. Therefore 2/3 barrel pitch, which has been prepared in the manner described *, 1/3 linseed oil and 1/8 yellow wax are used , put everything in an iron or copper cauldron, place the cauldron on the plate of the fire, make a gentle coal fire on the hearth and let the mass melt and boil together, after which the liquid is poured into a wooden vessel, in which water had previously been filled, poured, in which it completely cooled and formed individual lumps, these lumps are now worked in the hands by one another, that is to say pressed together and pulled apart again, and this process is continued until the three bodies, namely the Pitch, the wax and the oil, have completely combined with each other, and the pitch is now made into small, round balls of 1/2 to 1 pound made weights and sold as so-called cobbler's pitch etc. " [trans Google translate]

[das]

Without it in my hand to try, and smell, I have to assume if it smells like pine, it must have some pine-products in it. If it is pitch (firm tar), still too soft on its own, adding beeswax and linseed oil would only soften it further--it's got to have rosin in it to stay solid I think. Pine rosin with beeswax and oil sounds more likely.

[dw]

FWIW, when I get/make a batch of wax that is a little too brittle and wants to flake off the thread when inseaming, I will often invert a bottle of cod oil or linseed oil over my fingertip and spread the oil on a small piece of leather. Then I use that leather to burnish the waxed thread vigourously. I currently have a ball of very nice, very sticky wax which tends to be too hard esp. on dacron. This little 'cran' (?) works a treat and makes the wax adhere to the dacron even better.And if I'm careful and don't use too much oil, the wax remains sticky enough to very firmly lock the stitches...and that's harder to do with dacron than linen.

Of course, the original flaking of the wax indicates i didn't get the proportions right to begin with (although any oil can be fugitive and hand wax can get brittle as it ages), but that's not all that unusual and I'd rather the wax be too hard than too soft. If only because I know I can temper the wax when I'm inseaming but hardening a too soft wax is much more difficult.

[nickb1]

@das
It's solid at room temperature.
I don't think the seller is saying this is the recipe used ... Anyways, a particular preparation of "barrel pitch" [fasspech] is alluded to but not included. perhaps this contained rosin?

[nickb1]

Just an update on the German "Pechpiering" products. I finally got a reply, I assume from the owner, as it's a Mr Piering, who offered to send me some free samples of four handwaxes. Unfortunately the products contain bitumen: "Our pitches are made for the most part with Rosin, but partly the pitch are made with a little bit with bitumen(crude oil)." So it seems there is still no truly authentic off the shelf solution. I'll be using the black Pechpeiring wax I already acquired, since it's still stickier than the blond Carreducker wax (rosin + beeswax + tallow). @das I think has said that bitumen based products will not be tacky enough compared to pitch-based, but are there positively undesirable properties of bitumen why we would not want it in the shoes? I see that the felting sometimes used as a filler/liner also contains bitumen.

[dw]

Seems a lot of folks are having problems with finding good handwax. Except for the obvious...make it yourself...I don't know that there is a solution.

AFAIK, and IIRC, Nassar Vries up in Toronto(?) uses hot melt wax that was originally formulated for curved needle machines. Uses it 'as is." Maybe a little olive oi to soften it slightly. Don't know what the ingredients are, bit it works. I have tried it and although I prefer to make my own I wouldn't hesitate if in a pinch.

Beyond that and not very Traditional, what is wax for? What is its purpose. I would suggest that it is used to bind the strands together, prevent rot so as to preserve the thread and to lock the stitches so that they don't slip.

As important as the tack of the wax might be it is, of all the functions of the wax, the least critical to its mission of holding the shoe together. And if you use a synthetic thread...I use a dacron thread I get from Maine Shoe and Thread....the thread is slick enough that it will never get as 'grabby' as when the wax is applied to linen or hemp.

These days, however, what with all the great linen mills closed find good long staple linen yarn is nearly impossible. I suspect real 'long staple' linen or hemp hasn't been seen since circa WWI. Even the oldest and best vintage yarn I have is comprised of fibers that are less than three inches long. It breaks fairly easily, rots easily if the wax is not made and applied correctly, and cannot hold a candle to the synthetic for strength and durability.

I have fiddled with my wax formulas for so many years and can occasionally come up with a hand wax that will stick to Tecklon (dacron) sufficiently to lock the stitch. But, of course, you have to make wax to get wax that will do that.

Bottom line is that only you...as a shoemaker...can know and understand what is required in a wax and what is sufficient. No one else cares and there are so few HW shoemakers that there is no great demand.

Ipso facto, you have to make your own.

[Anton K]

trying to make a "Golden" Sewing Wax from the famous W.D. John the Shoe Finisher's Guide, can someone help me with where i can find White Rosin Oil?