Lasts

[erickgeer]

I'm not sure if this image is acceptable (I don't know who owns it now), so it may have to come down. I have Sterling promotional materials from the eighties that used this particular diagram.

Terminology-wise, what we call the "thimble" is diagrammed as the "tube" and would be found on most lasts, regardless of break style.

Erick

(Message edited by erickgeer on August 20, 2008)

[erickgeer]

(Message edited by erickgeer on August 20, 2008)

[erickgeer]

This is it

Erick

7900.jpg

[dearbone]

Nicholas,

All my lasts are Canadian made and all are hinged,v-shape,thimbled,i don't know any other,i have some odd scoop lasts,but i like the hinged ones better, i am very surprised to hear that they are not widely used by other shoemakers/bootmakers, About those blanks Lance was offering,i thought they might be able to put a hinge on them,heel hight on last are not a problem for me,but how thick or how narrow the heel matters to me,you said you are a last maker, how do you make your shoe and boot lasts? do you make scoop last for both? Nice to hear from you.

regards Nasser

[dearbone]

Erick,

Now,Isn't that a sexy made last or what! i prefer them made in wood of course,but as if we hadn't enough terminology confusion,you come up with another,the "tube" as i have known it,but couldn't recall.

regards Nasser

[dw]

To all,

For those going to Guthrie...it might be interesting if everyone brought a shoe last that he or she liked particularly or that they had questions about.

For instance, I just received a last from overseas that I have been led to believe is an old West End last. Not knowing nearly enough about shoe lasts I would be very interested in hearing what other, more experienced, shoemakers thought of it.

If it should turn out to be one that elicited great praise and admiration, I would solicit support for having it digitalized and made available to those who stepped up.

If it turned out to have such significant problems that it generated nothing but fear and loathing I would at least know what to do with it--it gets cold in Oregon in February.

And above all we could all get some sense of what makes a good last and what to look for..

[I am not promising to make it to Guthrie...I keep going back and forth...but at this moment in time I am leaning heavily towards making the trek.]

PS...I'm partial to thimbles too. But I am almost indifferent to whether the last be hinged or slip cone...the exception is for boot lasts--it's almost impossible to get a slip cone last back into a boot without "jimmying" up the lining.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[gshoes]

Nasser,

You make me laugh. Unschooled shoemaker. That was good. I needed the laugh today. Your work is magnificant!

Geri

[gshoes]

Can anyone tell me where the appropriate place is on the bottom of the last to measure the heel height. I thought that it was at the feather edge dead center on the back curve of the heel. In the diagram just shown, it appears that it is measured just as the heel begins closer to the instep. If that is the correct spot to measure the heel height? is there a formula for determining the heel length in relationship to last length or foot length?

Geri

[dearbone]

DW,

I am really curious to see what type of lasts other boot and shoemakers are using and bringing a sample pair to Guthrie seems to me a good idea and a good starting point for discussions.
Will it be possible to see a picture of your old west end last please?

Geraldine,

Heel height,i measure from the feather edge center,if by "heel length" you meant "heel height" than probably there is a formula(chart),but charts are more useful for production,i decide mine one at a time, shoe by shoe when the pattern is made.

Nasser

[jesselee]

Nasser,

As to lasts. I use original 1860's Civil War period to 1890s cowboy boot lasts. All the type that has the cone. many are singles which I have had to make a match and/or proper cones. Needless to say, a range of sizes is non existant in my shop. I have also re-made US military lasts, oversize and cut down to match CW sole contour and shape. I never use plastic lasts, only wood and I don't care if the wood has been reduced to cork, I can restore any last. I do have some hinged lasts in female shapes that I am recontouring for proper period styles. Hopefully I will have a complete woodworking shop this year and will build a last copying lathe.

In my specific area one must have proper period lasts to get the correct period look, as no matter how well a boot or brogan or period shoe is made, if the last is modern, it just don't look right.

JesseLee

[dearbone]

Geraldine,

what i called "heel height" is better called heel line height, instead of heel height.sorry about that.

[lancepryor]

Bill:

One question about your picture and measurement approach -- my interpretation of the measurement of the total length and the heel to ball is that these measurements are taken from the insole heel feather line, and not from the extreme back of the last (which obviously is somewhere up higher on the last, and which would generally add what, 5mm, to the actual last length as measured with a size stick)? The only reason I ask is that the pic says the heel to ball measure is 'to the back of the heel'.

Two other, more general questions: on a 'typical' last, i.e. one with a toe shape that adds 2 sizes to the actual foot length, is there any standard percentage (or small range) of the total last length that the heel to ball length represents? e.g. in the pics shown above, the heel to ball is 67% of the total -- is that pretty standard? Likewise, is there a 'typical'inside to outside joint angle (and if so, what line is this angle measure to/from -- eg. last mid-line, LOMA, inside heel to ball line, etc)?

Thanks,
Lance

[elstoof]

Nasser,

I work with blank lasts much the same as the ones Lance has offered, over measure, flat arch, low heel height etc. and remove wood to the dimensions needed, so I would imagine a hinge would just get in the way, particularly when raising the heel or narrowing it. All the lasts at work are the 'scoop' type, going back 100+ years, and as far as I know this type is used throughout the West End.

DW, I hear you about the lining getting "jimmied"... Try putting a thin piece of loose leather (thin glace kid works well), flesh against the boot lining, then slide the block into place. pulling the leather out afterwards *usually* straightens things out.

Geraldine, heel height is measured from the breast of the heel, where the weight of the wearer is placed.

Nicholas

[jesselee]

All,

I wanted to add a historical note on 'straight lasts'. Many people think these came as a single last and one shoe or boot was made at a time. This is indeed possible, but given time constraints due to complete hand stitching and bottoming, it is unlikely it was ever done except if you lost the mate.

These were not an 'as is' last, but a basic foot pattern. They were made with a low instep that would be built up and always with a sloping toe which accomadated length to 2 inches. The sides could be built out to get an accurate fit for lefts and rights.

Their basic size and shape was a brilliant idea for the perfect 'build up' last, and from before the Revolution up until the Civil War were made in basic lengths and widths. In fact some Confederate lasts of these types were sized as S, M and L, based on length and width.

A set of 5 lengths, some hand tools and leather was all an itinerant shoe maker needed to fit any teen or adult people. Very simple back in the good old days.

JesseLee

[das]

Jesse,

We know that "straights" (not R&L) lasts came in with the heel (c.1590s-1600) to reduce (by 50%) the number of lasts needed. This fad lasted about 200 years, as L&R paired lasts are back in fashion again by 1790s-1800. Your comment about pairs of "straights" rings true. There is one ref. around 1600 to pairs of straights (lasts), and others closer to the end of the 1700s, so the concept was there; however, it of course cancels out the economic advantage of just needing the single last to make both shoes of the pair.

M de Garsault (1767) shows atypical urban shoemaking workshop scene with a rack of assorted "comb" lasts on the wall numbering 105 lasts. Assuming you can get about three "fittings" (standard girth measurements were reckoned in numbers, i.e. "one fitting"=narrow, "two fitting"=medium, "three fitting"=wide) on one last, and with a "toe-" or "heel-pin" fitting, the "long sizes" (half sizes), these 105 lasts represent 630 length/width combinations.

The first mention I have for two-piece, scoop-block lasts is Rees (1813), and before that, yes, they all seem to be "comb" lasts (one-piece, very under-girth in the instep, and more flexible via added instep-leathers, and fittings). On the other hand, most surviving ones have number sizes cut into the "island" in Roman numerals. I'm dealing with a small surviving size run of men's 1770s lasts at the moment in a N.E. historical society, and they are all graded numbered sizes of the same style.

With all due respect to Laura E, Wilder ('Little House on the Prairie'), wandering itinerant shoemakers were hardly the benchmark business-model for shoemakers at any period. It seems a little unfair to use their requisites--or lack there of--as a standard for the main body of shoemakers. That being said, for my first 5 years making reenactor shoes, I got by amazingly enough, with a run of 6 lasts, sizes 6-11, but I spent way too much time fiddling around with build-ups, and got some pretty marginal fits too

[btippit]

Lance,

Actually, that picture is from OLGA showing how to measure the Insole/Last Bottom for the purpose of putting the measurements into OLGA where my last bottom measurements will correspond to them. So for that purpose "heel to ball" is correct as it refers to Insole Heel To Ball.

Since I've started entering styles into OLGA I've come to expect the heel to ball to be anywhere from 67-72% of the heel to toe on the insole. In upper pattern grading it's my understanding that the grade is something like 2/3 in the back and 1/3 in the front so that 67% would make sense but that would also incorporate the entire last/shoe meaning the part behind the back of the insole too which would actually skew the grade to be something like 70/30 on just the insole but there is no firm whole number that is expected as you always have variance for toe extension based on thickness and width of the toe style.

As for joint angle, when I'm customizing a last in the CAD system I try to line up the insole with the symmetry of the foot, especially if I have a lightbeam scan where that symmetry is automatically generated.

7920.gif

Then, if I've got the heel width, heel to ball, and this joint angle pretty close, I can start modifying the necessary upper shapes and measurements. I don't know that I've heard of a "standard" angle and I'm sure there are a dozen ways people do it, like everything else. I measure this angle from the heel to toe centerline, which I suppose you could call my LOMA.

Bill “The Last Man Standing” Tippit
www.globalfootwearsolutions.com

[jesselee]

D.A.

Thanks for the input. Too little is ever mentioned about these great old lasts. I so relate to your experience of having 6 lasts and still being able to make shoes. So true about the time constraints of having to build 'em up and take 'em down. Nice to have the luxury of a complete range of lasts.
In my collection I have an old partial set marked 6, 7 and 8 (I believe) in pairs and marked in Roman numerals as you mentioned. I assume there must have been a 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5 and perhaps a 9 and 10.
The 6 is 10 inches, the 7 is 11 inches and the 8 is 12 inches. All comb type with extreme sloping toes. I have a similar bunch with roman numeral markings with removable cones, yet two different size cones per set. I assume this is for different instep sizes. They are marked and Civil War era.
All are in good usable condition, soft wood like pine and appear to be factory manufactured as they are not hand hewn primitives. I plan on making a limited edition set of these two different styles once we get the wood working shop up and running.

JesseLee

[das]

Jesse,

Some days I wish I still only had a 6 last run! Just got through hauling 15-20 burlap sacks, and two huge boxes of lasts out to the new shop, spilling them open on the floor (now that I have floor space) sorting and inventorying them. I had one of my journeymen and my new apprentice come buy and take away a bag or two--there were just too bloody many of them.

But back to business...lasts/shoe sizes. As long as there have been ready-made shoes, imported/exported, etc. (+/- 2000 years), there had to have been an intelligible way to sort them by sizes. I mean you didn't want to sit in the filthy ancient streets trying on shoes out of a big heap until you found some that fit. The oldest lasts I've seen with size numbers on are from the 1600s, and I've not compared the length of the lasts to the numbers indicated. The main problem is the stick-size. English size-sticks do survive from a pretty early date (1600s), but the size increments are all over the place, and the sample is too small to be conclusive In 1688 (Holme) English shoe sizes were 1/4" per. Soon after and through most of the 1700s onward, they were 1/3rd of an inch. Early Virginia and Massachusetts shoe orders back home mention shoes by size numbers. And, when shoe contractor regulations for Oliver Cromwell's "New Model Army" in the 1640s, number sizes were used. There's a weird shoe from Boston, dug up at a wharf, from the mid 1600s, that has a big "8" stamped in the insole.

But, on the lasts, it's Roman numerals crudely cut or filed into the top of the last "island". This has always suggested to me that the last runs were bought un-marked, and the master of the shop sat there and checked each one according to his own size-stick, and cut in the appropriate size number. A size-stick, a ruler, or a tape measure only had to be "accurate" within the same shop--not standard across the country or city. If you wore a size 8 from Mr. Brown's shop, but a size 8 at Mr. White's shop was too long, it was only a matter of where to start trying them on anyway--not communicating with Bill Tippit, or his last manufacturers a world away. Anyway, because of this, I'm not sure how much sense we can make of the size markings on early lasts. By the 1800s, things did settle down, and you should be able to chart and plot your lasts, but don't be surprised to find that the numbers don't all work out right.

You, or Tom, might just be the guys to ask: do you know of any co.1860 lasts that bear any military markings? One of the things Peterkin, Butch Myers and I always noticed was most of the repro Civil War makers (1970s-90) were using 1880ish-looking, high instep, boot lasts for making bootees/brogans, which just looked "wrong", instead of dead-sloping "bootee" lasts. We managed to find 2 antique "bootee" lasts--Butch kept one, me the other, but there are no markings on them. Peterkin had managed to collect an 1861-marked "boot" last for Wellington boots, but nowhere in any of our hunting could we find anything with military markings to compare these to. I realize most of the Civil War footwear was made by private civilian contractors--not the Army per se--but the Army did maintain shoemaking works here and there (The Bootee Establishment), and their lasts must have been marked "UP.SO. Property" or something?

[das]

PS--Sorry, my spell-checker "corrected" "U.S. Property" to "UP.SO." Damned infernal computers *mutter*, *grumble*, *spit*, *spit*

[dw]

Nasser,

Since you were the only one who responded, I guess there's not a lot of enthusiasm for bringing lasts to Guthrie. I'm not certain I'm going in any case, so I thought, in response to your request, I'd post a couple of photos of one of the West End lasts I have access to.

7925.jpg

7926.jpg

The only thing that bothers me about this last is that is doesn't seem to have much heel curve. I don't know whether that's good or bad but someone at one of the top end bespoke makers back somewhere in the not too distant past obviously thought it was a good thing. This last also seems just a tidge hollow on the dorsal surface over joint line. I guess it wouldn't make any difference if the girth was correct...maybe it's even an illusion resulting from an attempt to create more room over the toes.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[lancepryor]

DW:

My bespoke lasts have the same shape of a heel curve, or lack thereof -- from the extreme back of the heel to the top of the heel, the last is straight rather than rounded, though of course at angle; my Lastmaker says that is the way he always does it, 'because that is how your foot is.'

Here's a pic:

7928.jpg

Lance

[dw]

Lance,

Yeah, I'm kind of leaning like that myself. I've made a couple pair of shoes off another West End last I have access to, and even thought they fit me fine in every respect, I got blisters on the back of my heels simply because the heel curve was so pronounced.

I mentioned this in a previous post and I ended up powdering my feet and wearing these shoes with heavy socks until they (and my feet) broke in but after looking at all the suggested possibilities for why the problem occurred, the only one that makes sense is the heel curve.

The sticky bit is that my own feet are kind of tender from wearing boots almost constantly, so I don't know if this is a problem that is more or less unique to me (or someone like me) or whether I should be very cautious even with customers who are accustomed to wearing shoes.

Your last and the one above that I posted photos of look remarkably similar.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[dearbone]

DW,

Thanks,i noticed the heel curve before reading your post,in my opinion and i am no last maker,but i think the top of the curve can be taken down(rasped) few mm, the bottom of the heel curve looks correct to me,also the length of the back curve from the center of the feather edge to the top(edge of the island)appears to be long,on most of my shoe lasts it is 7.5cm although i don't think it matters that much,but the the curve of the heel line does matters for shoes,it will be interesting to hear others and last makers opinions,what you called the the hollow on dorsal surface might be the characteristics of the English feet,with thin foreparts.I hope the elfs will hide those lasts from you in the cold of February, lest you turn them into ash.i respect your decision whatever it might be about coming to Guthrie,I thought, it might be good for the general spirit,if you were there.

Regards Nasser

[btippit]

I'm just wondering if the flat heel curve on the bespoke lasts might be that way, not because that's the way everyone's foot is (because everyone's foot is different) but because it would be easier to build the degree of roundness necessary onto a flat heel back rather than grind it off of a round one when you were making for a flat back foot. I've seen a lot of makers' order forms that had three side profiles of the heel (flat, average, and what looks like a baseball) and whichever one was closest to the customer's feet was circled. Just at thought.

Also, Lance's last looks like it's got enough "kick back" at the top of the heel curve to have been for a short boot or at least a high top shoe that needed a bit of a "boot curve" to begin following up above the calcaneous bone and onto the Achilles tendon. DW's seems to have that too but not quite as much as Lance's. Or maybe this was there to fill in the "dip" just below it if that top extension was correct, or as Nasser suggests, rasp off if it's too far back.

All of this is just conjecture of course. Unfortunately there's still a lot that we see in older, classic lasts that works but no one ever bothered to write down why.

Bill “The Last Man Standing” Tippit
www.globalfootwearsolutions.com

[erickgeer]

When I look at Lances's last and some older lasts featuring less curve, I notice that the top view is much much narrower than common modern lasts. It looks like if we were to deform the last at the top of the backpart- without losing mass- to be thicker, we would wind up with more "normal" curve.

As lance conveyed from his last maker- there is not much curve to the back of the foot leading into the ankle- but it is also only as thick as the tendon there.

Thoughts?

(Uh- should we be moving this to "One Last Question?" )


Erick