The Crispin Colloquy

Rick,

Man! Was I way off on that! My finest stitch length on my 136 is 16 and I don't think I'd want to stitch any closer. 16spi will "postage stamp" soft leather.

My longest is 10spi so your 11spi doesn't sound so bad now. Don't know where I got that 22 spi...maybe it goes back to when I was trying to figure out the finest stitch I could do without cutting the leather. [sigh] That's the problem with having the computer a some remove from the shop...I don't check things as often as I should.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

I've been using a Singer 236 for several years, now. A very good post machine, it has compound feed as the Pfaff 491, although not gear-driven--it uses a Rube Goldberg belt system. But it is a former factory machine with many thousands of hours of use, and I'd like to replace it. New Pfaffs are prohibitively expensive, to me at least, and I've had bad experiences with used and rebuilt machines--I am very fussy--although I am encouraged to hear from several of you that they have worked well for you. Has anybody had any experience with new Jukis? I saw a mention of a 1245, I believe that's the model number of their post bed. I have also used two Singer 136s that sewed very well.

I have a Singer 136W 103 post machine that came out of a factory in Philadelphia a long time ago.
I never saw it run and I have a question and an issue. Other than that it works good.

The question is... What does the horizontal lever under the arm of the machine that moves from the right to the left do? The lever is spring loaded to the right. I am not talking about the lever that moves up and down that lifts the pressure roller.

The issue is... That the longest stitch that I can make is about 16 stitches per inch. I can shift the gears under the post end of the machine and it makes an even smaller stitch.

Looking for answers,

Bill Harris

Bill,

I have no idea what the "horizontal lever" you refer to does, but if the "issue is..." stitch length, the lever has nothing to do with it.

The stitch length on a 136 is set by a series of gears under the machine. It's like a transmission. You can reach under the machine and feel a knurled knob under the post. If you push or pull it in or out while turning, until it clicks, you can change the stitch length. But on a 136 you only have three choices--all the way in, all the way out and one stop in between.

If you need a longer stitch length than 16spi, you will need to purchase and switch out gears that are rated for longer stitch lengths.

It's been a while since I was under there but you may need a set--a pair of gears--for each stitch length. Mine runs 16spi as the smallest, 14 in the middle, and 11 is the largest.

In my opinion 16spi is pretty small and probably as fine as you will ever want. And 11spi is just beginning to get a bit coarse.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

(Message edited by dw on September 17, 2007)

Hey Dan,

I bought a Juki 1245 years ago. Dang fine machine. I've never had a problem with it.

Let me know if you have any particular question.

Adios, Jake

Bill
Are you the William O. Harris I met at the Williamsburg AGM in 1990? That lever on your 136 is related to the lining undertrimming mechanism, which has probably been removed. You don't need it. Thanks, Jake, good to hear from you. My only question regards price, and I'll call some Juki dealers for current info.

Jake, Dan,

Talk more about the Juki 1245...what kind of feed does it have? Does it have a feed dog or a continuous roller feed as in the Singer 136? Does the roller foot also feed (the armature on the presser foot looks like it might contain gears or something)? Needle feed?

How many stitch lengths are available and what's the largest and smallest?

Does it need a special table?

Is it easy to time and maintain?

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

DW,
Pfaff made the original 1245. I have Ferdco's version of the 1245. It has a walking foot. Not sure if it could be fitted with a roller foot. When I was down at Melanie last spring Arnold told me between my 2000 and the 1245, I have about all the sewing applications covered for my work. The stitch length is controlled by a lever, and I have done up to 5/inch on some heavy strap, usually my chaps are around 14 or so. It will go down to zero, but I haven't tried your pattern cutting with the chiseled needle yet. Seems to be pretty easy to maintain, and I have had mine new for about a year now. I have yet to have it skip a stitch that I have noticed. I think with the servo motor, table, the different feet and shipping, it cost me a bit over $2000 to the door.
I am seeing a use for a post machine for some of my bags and need some info. I would like to know what the maximum thread size is that these handle. I need something that will sew through about 4 oz total of chap leather. Any mention of reliable makers and model numbers would be appreciated.

Bruce,

The Pfaff 1245 is a different machine than the Juki PWL-1245. The Juki is a post machine with a driven roller foot.


But not many in this country. I think the driven roller presser foot would be a good thing for consistent length stitches around curves and running up over lapped seams.


Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

Sorry, I don't have much information. Post bed machines for shoe uppers (their only other listed use is for making toupees) fall into 2 categories: (1) Lighter weight, roller foot (single or compound feed), as the Singer 51, 136, and 236 classes, the Pfaff 491, etc., using threads from 46 to 99, needles 80 to 125, roughly, and (2) Heavier machines, compound walking-foot feed, as the Singer 168 class and others. The best for heavy boots, work, hiking, "White" boots, etc., thread up to 138 and larger.
I believe the Juki 1245 is the second type, but not sure. I am looking for the first, lighter type. If the local SM dealer has Juki info as advertised, I'll post it.

Dan,

You mentioned that you had a Singer 236...

Is the 236 a compound feed? Is the roller foot driven? By belt? Or by gears? Does this apparatus get in the way of sewing?

How adjustable is the stitch length on that machine...is it limited to three lengths, like the 136?

Is there a sub-model that doesn't have all the extra attachments, bells and whistles, and surplus military hardware glommed on? I want a machine that will do one job--sew a reliable, consistantly spaced stitch--no fuss, no bother...that's all.

If I could find the Pfaff, I would seriously consider buying it but in lieu of that machine the Singer 236 looks like a good option to replace my old 136.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

D.W.

I have two Singer Model 236 machines. When they are tuned in, they are superb! The bottom roller is driven from a belt that runs underneath the base. The top roller is driven by a belt that runs on top of the machine, under the top cover. I don't think the 236 has ever missed a stitch since I eliminated the gross "pilot error." It is the one machine that I haven't slowed down yet. I sew with a bare foot to gain the pedal control I need for close stitching.

The 236 has a toggle underneath the left hand side to change the stitch length. There is a screw cap that opens to allow you to see the stitch number when you change the stitch length.

I have side seamed the last two pair of boots on the 236 with 69 thread and it has not had any problem. I wish I could say that about my Tippman Boss. The only change I intend to make is to slow the "old heffer" down. I had to install a lamp to see the edge better while making close edge stitches. I have only praise for this machine.

If hope this helps in your decission.

Thank you again for all your help.

Larry Peterson

DW,

I have a 236 also. And the roller assembly does not get in my way.

I would add that the stitch length on my machine runs from, "I wonder if I could do inlay cut outs", to about 8 spi, with any spi in between.

I agree with Larry, it is faster than my 31-51. But it sure is smooth.

Oh, and I got mine from Larry.

PK

Larry, Paul,

That's helpful. Thank you both.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

Thank you, Larry and Paul. I'd only add, the Pfaff shaft driven presser roller (foot) looks better, but the 4 belts on the 236 have never failed nor interfered. My 236, and maybe yours as well, was made in Kaiserslautern, Germany, by the Adler factory during the 50's, when Singer was king, I have been told by Greg Nichols. A shortcoming of the 236's is also one of its virtues: the small, rounded post top is easy to work with, but the small parts are too close together--no problem in a new machine, but many potential ones in the vintage models we use. I like my 236, and it never skips a stitch. But I do have occasional problems with inconsistent tension: it will sew perfectly for inches, then one--or ten--stitches with the knots on top (or, sometimes the bottom), as if the upper tension were too tight; then back to perfect sewing. The great majority of these problems are caused by thread variation, and cement in the material sticking to needle and thread, I think. But I hate to waste the time picking out, then replacing stitches, often by hand to ensure new holes aren't added, and older machines, worn a trifle on every surface, are more prone to this.
So I'm looking, though I don't think I can afford a new machine yet. Interestingly enough, when I approached 3 who had claimed to be Juki dealers (Weaver Leather, Ferdinand, and a local one), all said they were Juki dealers no longer.However, one had a new Juki, post bed, single feed roller foot (roller presser, actually) at a price competitive with the Chinese clones being sold.

Dan,

Thanks for letting me know what the mystery lever on my Singer 136 is.

I think that I met you about 1990 in Williamsburg.

You had recently finished a pair of dark blue Mary Jane shoes for your wife.

I am going to try to get to Wisconsin this fall.

If anyone is driving west through Cleveland I would be glad to have them ride the rest of the way with Therese and I.

Bill Harris

Dan,

I too have have that occasional traveling knot problem. Most of the time mine is the bobbin thread that is the culprit. It's as if the thread get's an extra twist, or kink, and will not pull into the material. There are so many things that can cause this, that it's hard for me to know how to correct it.

No help here, just commiseration.

PK

Bill
Look forward to seeing you again; very glad to hear you're still shoemaking. Paul--I think you're describing a different problem, with the twisted knot of bobbin thread, as opposed to several stitches are merely out of tension. A sewing machine mechanic once described them as "French knots" (maybe we should say, "freedom knots&#34. It may come from the same cause, though. You are right, there are so many things that can cause this. Constant effort is needed; but I think a newer, lower-mileage machine would reduce the frequency of problems.
DW, the stitch length is infinitely variable on the 236, but the longest stitch possible is 8/inch. The 236G(orW)100 is the bare bones model, which has everything we need.

Dan

Paul, Dan,

Thanks for the info about stitch length and model number.

I don't know if this will help at all but I use Nymo thread for my bobbins. It has no twist, being what is described as a "monocord." This may answer especially if "an extra twist" is suspected as the culprit. But even if it a solution (or partial solution), for some it won't answer for the simple reason that it doesn't come in very many colours...and I read somewhere, recently, that sewing with a bobbin thread that matches the colour of the lining is a preferred method.

I've always used white (it looks clean especially up against a veg kip lining) but I could see why some might want to minimize the effect of the bobin thread.

I might add that I once owned a flatbed that had the bottom roller feed (I can't remember the nomenclature). It too produced french knots. I ended up selling the machine but shortly after I had a discussion with an old time sewing machine mechanic who told me that such knots were the result of incorrect timing.

For what it's worth...

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

I've never seen the french knot problem on my Singer 236 so maybe it's not characteristic of the machine but some setting/mis-setting.

My machine never, ever skips and with a servomotor I can even single stitch if I want.

I think that I will try adding a removable raised table section to make it also work as a flatbed machine since I'm so happy with it's performance.

There's my two bits.

Regards, Tom Mickel

Just saw this listing on ebay for a Pfaff post machine with roller foot that may appeal to some of you searching for such a machine. No affiliation on my end, just watching the listings!

Item number: 140160256062

Regards,

Georgene

All,

I have decided to put my old Singer 136W out to pasture, so I have been following the discussion on this thread. I wanted to wait until after the Boot & Saddlemakers Roundup this year to make a decision.

My series of questions are prompted by the Roundup. What has been your experience with Artisan? They seem to be the only company offering bootmaking versus saddlemaking class machines with a continuing presence at the show (Ferdco and the others no longer attend). Artisan invested a great deal of time and money to rent a large portion of the show floor and bring a lot of machines all the way from California. They have attended the show for quite some time and their participation has, if anything, increased. In other words, they do not come across as a cut-rate, short-term operation. Any comments on the company and their service?

I was looking at Artisan's Model 4618 post bed machine. It seems to have the same features the Pfaff 491 offers. Artisan describes their Model 4618 as a "lockstitch single needle, needle feed, driven roller presser foot and roller feed" machine. The salesman I talked with told me it was a Mitsubishi machine re-branded by Artisan. Does anyone have any experience with the Model 4618 or the Mitsubishi machine (I do not know the corresponding Mitsubishi model designation)?

This is a situation in which I have gotten to "kick the tires" albeit with a specially tuned show ready demonstrator. This thread had gotten me very interested in the Pfaff 491, but I have never had an opportunity to see or work with one.

I would appreciate any feedback you might care to offer.

Joe

Joe,
I bought a post machine from Artisan last year. I LOVE the machine! I haven't had it long enough to need repairs or new parts. But the machine arrived promptly and in good condition.

I'm pleased to see them showing up at shows and supporting the leather industry. They donated a finisher to the Master's category of the Bootmaker's Contest at Wichita Falls. That's a big contribution!

Lisa

Lisa,
Thanks for the input. Artisan has grown on me over the years. I agree their continuing support of the Roundup does say alot about the company. I saw the finisher they were donating. Hope you were the one who won it. I had to leave before all the announcements were made.

Joe

Joe,

I got a 491 last January, I love it. The 491 is a very easy machine to use and stitch lenght is quite easy to change. I've sewing shoes packers and havey work boots on it without any trouble. I would never go back to singer post machine.

Hope this helps.

Mike