Tex,

Thank you...that's as nice a thing as anyone has said to me in a while. You're right, I'm not really trying to convince anyone of anything...just sharing ideas and hoping to pick up a thing or two for myownself.

If you don't mind me saying so, Tex, you can be an ornery old cob (it takes one to know one) when the air conditioner goes on the fritz, but there's very few people on the forum more worthy of respect or worth listening to. I just wish you'd shorten up your posts some. [ducking and running]

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

Ok ,,,, you two , I,ve been listening to both of you beat your chest for two weeks now.... it,s time for the showdown. If you will meet me behind the barn in 15 minutes , I will have both of you a supply of fresh lemon cream pies. At the sound of the bell, commence throwing.

C.D.,

Could they be coconut cream pies instead?

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

CD,

I don't believe we have met....TR

All,

Bristling topics of conversation lately. It is indeed hell being a diabetic when the prospect a good pie fight is possible.

Floyd

All,
I recently bought myself an angle grinder for heavy work around the house; great for removing large areas of rust. Was sanding down a long shovel handle with it the other day after de-rusting the blade. Did about 1/6th of it then switched to scraping it down with a hand tool and a sheet of sandpaper. The angle grinder is loud, franetic and has no control of speed; the hand tool is quiet, gentle, and I'm in full control.

In the same way, I've used power wood lathes. Instead, in our back yard I've made a pole lathe using 2 forked sticks, a springy branch and some polished coach screws. Powered by my feet it is quiet, etc and I'm in complete control; and you can make from fine lace bobbins to containers with tight fitting lids. And it only cost $5.

And so-on into shoe making and bristles/ handsewing. As DW said "it's the journey that counts". Viva-la-Gentle Craft.

Cheers Duncan

To All:
As you have seen there's been some sewing machines listed on the Forum. They listed a single and double needle models. My question is the double needle model workable for boot building? I've talked with my master got his input. So I would like to get some more before I make a choice. Is anybody using a double needle? Thanks for the help Mike

Mike,

I had a double-needle Singer post for a while, with the close-set needles [needle bar]. As long as I was sewing straight along it did fine, but on negotiating curves the rows of sewing merged, the tighter the curve the worse the problem. I just slipped one needle out, and used it as a single-needle 90% of the time just fine.

G'day all, Haven't posted for a while but still try and catch up on the mayhem as often as I can.

Janne,
Like you I use the metal bristles for Inseaming. I noted in your last post that you did not think them appropriate for sole stitching. I have always used them for this purpose without any trouble, and If I might say so ,with quite pleasing results. I wondered why your opinion is such, and what you use in there place?
Maybe our bristles are somewhat different to each others. I'm aware there are a few types.

D.W.,Jake.
On the debate about using beeswax over you wraps.
I, like many bootmakers Im sure, pre-punch the holes in the holdfast prior to inseaming. With every hole that I make I first dip the point of my awl into a cake of beeswax, thereby leaving a residue of beeswax in each hole.Helps things along nicely. I've even seen some use Dubbin in the same way. Although with so many brands of Dubbin now being petrolium based I'm unsure how this would affect the thread.

And with September looming I will sign of with....

Car'n the CROWS!!!!
Cheers.
Jon.

Gents,

I'll toss in here with:

1) I often use a wipe or two of beeswax *over* the wrapped portion [only] of my waxends *if*, and only if on the first stitch it seems to be dangerously tough going--maybe half of the time when closing uppers by-hand with titsy bristles, thin or cheesy leather apt to tear or cut-through, very sticky wax, etc. After the first few stitches the action of pulling the wrapped portion through the holes seems to burnish and smooth the wrapping down to where the going gets easier--"the first stitch is a b***h".

2) For welt/outsole-stitching, try rubbing the welt down with a chisel-shaped end cut onto a bar of soap for lubrication, thus keeping any slippery stuff off the thread itself. Tallow, etc., will dissolve and undermine your wax, and rob the thread of its needed coating. Same goes when sewing very oily uppers, like waxed-calf. It strips the wax off the thread at each pass, ruins the consistency of the remaining wax, and requires frequent re-waxing with fresh wax every few inches to, as Rees says, "keep it [the thread] nearly in the same condition it was when made".

3) I've never had much trouble like this when inseaming [welt-sewing], because the holdfast has been slightly re-dampened by having the wet upper lasted over it, but I'm a wet-laster

4) I habitually dip the awl in beeswax between each stitch, for everything. The forward-most compartment on my bench contains a solid pool of beeswax, refreshed occasionally by melting and pouring more in as it gets used up--maybe twice a year. For pegging this is a must. And, if you peg sitting down without a traditional style bench, try riveting a shallow tin can onto a little belt, then filling it with beeswax [molten then cooled], and strap this around your thigh at the knee so the can stays perched on top of your knee for dipping the awl into each time you go to pierce.

Jonathon,
In my opinion they are to broad to use when stitching the out sole on dress boots/shoes with more stitches then 8". I have sometimes used them up to 8" with a result that is all right.
I have used boars bristles and the English made nylon dittos made for this purpose. I recomed the last ones because they are easier to work with then the boars. But the last two years have I mostly used the solestitcher. That one is complicated too, but that is another story.
Janne

Joh, not all Bootmakers prepunch the innersole for hand inseaming. I have meet very few that do this. The beeswax is used on the tip of the all to assist the all in cutting the hole in the innersole, not for the inseam string to slip. The new poly strings have enough wax already and are quite slippery. The old flax thread used for inseaming required a considerable pull on the strings without stopping or the string would hang up if you did not immediately put the stitch tight.

"Riding For The Brand"
Brian C. Thomas

Brian,

Actually pre-punching the insole is much more common among shoe and bootmakers outside of Texas. It's quite common in Germany and, from what I understand, most of
Europe. Since most of our cowboy bootmaking techniques have their origins in long since forgotten European traditions, you might say that pre-punching the insole is historically
and traditionally correct.

But I too, was taught to inseam without pre-punching the insole.

Then I got finicky...

Frankly, there are advantages to each approach. I've seldom seen a maker that could position the exit hole in the holdfast very accurately when inseaming blind. I've always felt that where the awl comes out in the outside channel--high or low--was critical. But then I also believe that the holdfast ought to be holed in such a way as to keep the awl parallel to the treadline...ala Thornton...especially through the tread area.

On the other hand, when pre-punching around the toe, it takes some experience to anticipate how closely the holes should be spaced prior to actually lasting the uppers, mounting the toe box, and stitching the welt. But although it is an extra step, pre-punching has made inseaming a lot easier, faster and more comfortable for me. And just for that reason, even though it's an extra step, I think you might actually save a little time over-all.

I always pre-punch.

Tight Stitches
DWII--Member HCC

D W, for me I learned the blind way and I still feel it has many advantages over the prepunched insole. As you previously stated it takes a considerable amount of skill to (predetermine) where to punch the holes around the small toes. One of the big disadvantages of prepunched is that the length of your stitch is set before the stitch is pulled tight. IF you have an insole or welt that has some soft or flank spots you cannot start with a little longer stitch and put it tighter. *Meaning* I would rather have a little longer stitch than one that tore through the innersole or welt. I do agree with prepunching innersole for teaching someone the basic fundamentals of Inseaming. What is you time to prepunch a pair of innersoles? What is your time to inseam 1 pair? I would say in my opinion that these two times should be added together to get a total inseam time for 1 pair. How can it be faster?

Brian C. Thomas

DW.

I never pre-punch and have never done so and my inseam stitches are perfectly straight and I have always considered pre-punching as something a student bootmaker would do. And I do not agree that pre-punching is necessary for the master bootmaker..TR

Gents,

As to pre-holing (or simply "holing" as it used to be called), both Rees (1813) and Devlin (1839) advocated it. Devlin made mention of the fact that the French did not pre-hole (what does Garsault have to say, Al?) and he also pointed out that a certain Bob Jones, a "prize-man" and maker of considerable renown, never holed before lasting. He then goes on to say that holing "is the safer method, and as it is quickly done, in a few minutes, it is well to be adopted." Perhaps it was a point of pride to sew without holing first. Rees, though, makes no comment on the matter, saying simply "the next thing to be done, is to hole the inner sole".

I pre-hole, though I started out sewing "blind". I'd guess it takes me three or four minutes to go all the way around, depending of course on how fine the work is to be. I, too, dip my awl in beeswax (cut with tallow) when holing...without wax the blade tends to grab in the damp leather and is hard to withdraw, but the small amount of wax left behind does also make starting the stitches easier.

Rusty

I'm with DW on "holing" the insole, that is piercing the holdfast before lasting, and for mostly the same reasons. BTW, let's not inadvertently coin a new term here, this operation is called "holing". "Punching", by definition removes a plug of material, like a rotary punch does

Here's a question: any of you sew "backwards"? That is do you inseam welted work with the awl piercing inward from the welt? One old boy I knew said when he first came here [c.1913], he observed lots of American welt sewers poking the awl in from the outside, rather than the traditional European way of poking outward from within the holdfast.

A follow-up: how many sew/stitch by hand away from themselves, versus sewing towards yourself?

Rusty,

Opps, I should have read all of my e-mail postings--I'm replying off the ones sent here, not by viewing the Forum, if that make me appear less lazy. Missed yours. Good synopsis of the "Dead Guys" on holing. I believe that the little bit of extra time spent holing is well worth it in better results. I started out like you, sewing blind. I don't believe Garsault mentions it, but my copy of the ms. is not right here--the book has gone to the editors BTW *yeah*.

Golding and the "Not So Long-Dead Guys" are pretty universal in having you hole the insole first. But these books were for learners, so it's quite possible that the technique, adopted as a beginner, just became a habit for the generation trained by these manuals. Others may never have known about it.

As to adjusting hole spacing a little to avoid weak spots, I do this too while holing. Any cut-throughs happen in the insole, not the uppers or welt, right? So, no need to surprise yourself later, when the upper is in the way. You can "feel" the holdfast leather better without distraction at each piercing holing in advance, and more importantly see what it's doing and adjust appropriately. When you go back to actually sew, the awl slides right through the hole already made in the holdfast, and is only piercing the upper and welt this time, i.e., it's not such hard work.

Maybe you all already know this, but don't hole the insole while it's too wet, or else your awl will pull the grain down, go too deep, and inside the boot you'll get "laddering"--little low dents at each stitch that look "bad".

Brian, all,

Well, I hope I *am* a student...I hope I always will be. It makes me a better teacher, if nothing else.

As I stated, I learned to inseam blind. I did it that way until probably ten years ago. I would cut an inside channel, at an angle toward the edge of the insole, and when I stitched, the inseam would be completely hidden in this channel. But two things I noticed over the years:

First, the inside channel would sometimes break out with wear. I've seen this on many many different bespoke boots. So it wasn't just me. Part of the problem was simply mechanics...if you make a cut in any piece of leather and then try to pull it apart, it will rip fairly easily. Punch a hole at the end of the cut, however, and suddenly the hole acts as a rip stop. When I cut the inside channel and tightened the stitches down, the stitches tended to force the cut further open...and it seemed to me that this pressure would continue for the life of the boot due to flexing and other stresses on the inseam. So I needed to find another way to do an inside channel.

Second, I noticed that even with 15+ years experience under my belt...and my inseams fastidiously straight (someone once told me "you can't inseam with a hammer" )...I still was not coming out **precisely** in the corner of the outside channel. A hair low--probably didn't matter; a tidge high--no sweat...EXCEPT...except, even though the inseam looks straight you can't really tighten down a stitch 100 percent if the awl point emerges beyond where it's supposed to. And the inseam is weakened, even if only a miniscule amount, if the awl point exits too high on the holdfast. If you are stitching blind, theres's no way you can be 100% all the time.

Does it matter? I don't know. Thinking about it, I'd have to say...probably, but probably not very much. At the time, and to this day, I wasn't willing to take the chance.

As for time...well, Brian...having a pre-holed insole just makes inseaming that much faster. The time you save by not having to fuss or worry about coming out in the proper place on the holdfast (if you worry about such things) makes up for the time spent holing.

At this time, I cut my outside channel as usual. Then I cut an inside channel, straight down, with a "race," or groover, and I cut it very shallow. It's almost there just to mark where I want the awl to enter the insole, although I do cut it deep enough to barely sink the stitches below the surface of the insole. Because there is a very slight angle in the path of the hole, there is also a very slight addition of substance in the holdfast. But the critical issue is that any examination of the inside channel would reveal that the bottom of this groove is rounded--like a rip stop--that's the big benefit in my mind.

I inseam from the inside out. Always starting on my left side and working towards the toe and myself.

As always, I'm not saying that the way I do it is any better than any other way. It seems so to me, and having learned the other way, it was harder to change than to simply go on doing things as usual. But I thought I saw a way to improve my boots...so I took it. Who wouldn't? And as has been mentioned, I dern sure didn't invent any of this...if anything, I simply came back to my roots.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

DW, ALL,

Well, you can explain about anything if you use enough words and DW, you are about as good with them as anyone. You may even top all of these book bootmakers that you constantly quote. Maybe you were born in the wrong century. But we have been through all of that several times and I won't go there again.
You guys can make up your own minds about how you make your holes in your insoles. Pre-punch them if you like. I have done it both ways and I choose to not pre-punch them. I have my reasons for not doing it and you have your reasons for doing it. It is simply a matter of preference, but don't try to put a professional like myself in your group of bootmakers who can't inseam straight or put their holes in the right place because I can and do put mine exactly in the right place. A maker that channels his own insoles should know exactly where to put the holes without pre-punching them. It is very elementary...TR

Al,
I was taught to inseam from the outside into the insole. Of course, I was using a jerk needle at the time. I go inside to outside now with the awl. Do you think maybe bootmakers who stitch outside to inside started with a jerk needle and kept doing it that way even if they switched to an awl and waxed ends?

I noticed that D.W. said he starts on his left and stitches "toward himself and toward the toe." I too start on my left, but I stitch AWAY from myself and toward the toe. I'll have to try it that way and see what I think...

Lisa

Tex,
 
What I am about to say is said with a great deal of respect...and I hope you will take it in that way.
 
What makes a person worthy of respect? Worth listening to? It's surely not the vehemence with which he expresses his opinion; nor yet the stubbornness with which he rejects the opinions of others.
 
In part, it is experience. In part, it is the consistency that runs through his approach to any subject; and in part it is his willingness to reach out to others.
 
You have 40 years experience in the Trade. But what does that mean? It surely means that you are worth listening to...just as any survivor in any facet of life is worth listening to.
 
Between Al, Rusty, and I, there is near 90 years of experience. We all started inseaming blind. We all changed. So what does that 90 years mean? By themselves the numbers themselves don't mean squat. And I don't think anyone is suggesting that it means that holing the insole is the "be all and end all." But perhaps what it does mean is that it's worth listening to.
 
One thing is sure, however, the "book bootmakers" were sure enough masters of their trade. They all had experience equal to, or greater, than any of us; they all had exposure to enough diversity to give them perspective; and they were all professional enough and felt enough responsibility to the Trade to reach out to others and try to guide the next generation. They were (and are) all worthy of respect, in other words. They are all worth listening to and learning from. The books represent over 300 years of experience...and wisdom, because wisdom is mostly accumulated experience. If you, with your 40, are worth listening to, it only follows that that 300 years worth of experience is worth at least a casual look.
 
Unless you accept that cowboy boot makers are so isolated from the rest of the Trade that they cannot recognize their own roots, it is hard to see the rationale for rejecting the great repositories of wisdom that have come down to us from the past masters of our Trade.
 
It seems to me that the better part of wisdom is to remember that a tree cut off from its roots cannot grow.
 
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

Most of you know how much my 2 cents is worth but I’m going to give what I learned. I’m not for sure about certain words ya’ll use, but I was taught to not only punch the holes from inside out but for me (as a “newbie”) to mark each hole with a pen so I could see it better. Also when laying it out Carl Chappell got me a hand tool that looks like a wide blunt spur or windmill with a handle on it. This makes impressions that are all equally spaced. I also just spent the weekend with another bootmaker and they used a dremel tool to make the holes. I know that will blow some of you away. But I have even read where Dusty Johnston uses a dremel. Food for thought.

All & Gary:
One of my bootmaking/email friends I met at Brownwood last year introduced me to the Dremel tool. Maybe he will
come in here and add to this discussion. I recently found Dremel bits which are tiny, tiny and actually smaller than some of the awls I have seen. Also, a stitch marking tool has been in my hobby supplies for 40 years. Among my goods which I intend to use in bootmaking is a tiny thin tape which has glue on the back, not too firm so it can be easly pulled off, is marked with little black markers on the tape. The black marks across the tape come in even lengths and one can get several size lengths from narrow to wider down at the quilt store in the notions dept. The tape was designed to be used to make even stitches when quilting.

You see I have been telling all of you one can find great tools at the quilt shop. Try it, you may be surprised! RL

BTW
I'm not promoting one way or the other. The dremel I have seen it used. I know Dusty Johnson debated both sides of awl and dremel. I wish someone would try it out before commenting and see what they think. It sure is easier and faster (yes, I know that argument too).