miscellaneous tips, advice, and cautions

[das]

Now my curiosity is really piqued. I just assumed that it was a common, wide-spread practice among western bootmakers. Whatever its genesis, it's a neat idea for testing lasts' fit before committing with "good" leather. Do ask your Style Forumites if they might know it's origin in the Old World.

[dw]

Not sure there is any answer to that. For me, at least, it just seems so natural--such a 'logical progression' if one is a shoemaker thinking about, and more or less 'guaranteeing' a fit.

Really, I am surprised that more makers don't do something similar...I'm surprised at the (your?) surprise. Sometimes when I am reading StyleForum (and I am far less active there than I used to be) it seems every 'good' bespoke maker in Europe and Japan makes some version of a fitter's model.

As for cowboy boots and 'Western' boot culture...hey, I could be mistaken. But when I came up, I never saw or knew anyone who did anything even close. Yet every maker i ever met always had a 100% sure fire, fit record --zero or near-as-nevermind misfits. And when asked, would scoff at the idea. As if it were somehow 'unmanly' or a sign of incompetence.

I have always maintained, however, that the shoemaker must not only fit the foot but also fit the head. So letting the customer determine if the fit is good ahead of time only seems reasonable. He guarantees his own fit.

[nickb1]

I've never known any makers (in the UK at least) who make such elaborate, fully-functional test fitter shoes, then cut them apart.

It seems to me that there are some UK-based makers that do this e.g. Daniel Wegan. I was told that Lobb don't do any fitting at all before the actual making, because the last maker can be relied on to get it right first time. If they have a client with significantly abnormal feet they do a braceover ie last the upper (the actual one, not a trial one), with at least one shoe having the stiffeners in too, then lash it to the insole with a kind of zig-zag of stitching from one side of the upper to the other. This then gets a temporary sole stuck on with rubber solution, and the client can try it on and walk around. Some makers do this as standard, and others make trial shoes, whether or not they cut them up. So, significant variation seems to be the norm.

[das]

@nickb1 Interesting. Thanks. I was only lurking in the West End shops in the late '70s through the '80s, and never heard or saw this done.

[nickb1]

@nickb1 Interesting. Thanks. I was only lurking in the West End shops in the late '70s through the '80s, and never heard or saw this done.

I guess things can change even in the 'old world' ;-) I was told that a lot more effort is being paid now by some makers to "getting them all perfect", by someone who seemed slightly annoyed, or perhaps bemused, by it. Perhaps this is extending to fitting too?

[dw]

...
This then gets a temporary sole stuck on with rubber solution, and the client can try it on and walk around. Some makers do this as standard, and others make trial shoes, whether or not they cut them up. So, significant variation seems to be the norm.

As you say--"variation seems to be the norm." But the making of a trial shoe/fitter's model is itself becoming the norm among high end makers. That's what I'm seeing, at any rate.

I suspect that the Japanese are the main ones making a whole trial shoe... uppers, broguinging, welts, etc.. Most of the English makers, if they do a fitter's model, brace, cement and add a @6mm cork outsole for in-shop walking around.

Whatever, it's smart.

[dgleeson]

My understanding is the trial shoe is quite common in the Italian tradition too, they call it a Prova. Antonio Meccariello takes it a step further, after the trial shoe but before making the final hand welted shoe he creates a Goodyear welted version that the customer can wear for a number of weeks to ensure they're still happy with the fit after breaking in. I'm not sure whether he's unique with this or if it's a relatively widespread practice.

Either way, it seems incredibly risky to me to go blind and not do any sort of trial / fitters model before making the final shoe/boot.

[nickb1]

Either way, it seems incredibly risky to me to go blind and not do any sort of trial / fitters model before making the final shoe/boot.

I'd have thought so too, but maybe it does depend also on how highly-skilled lastmaker is, and the skill and effort going into the measuring. I have heard people say the fit from e.g. Lobb was spot on first time. OTOH if I'd paid upwards of £7k for a pair of shoes, that might affect what I said about them afterwards ;-)

Dominic Casey is another West End maker doing trial shoes. The client gets to walk around in the trial shoes at home or out and about, with a cemented rubber sole and rubber heel.

[das]

As I wrote well above, I never knew of or used the "test fitter" for something like 20 years making bespoke, until I met DW and picked it up from him as a neat idea. During that time I only had one misfit for a client--no complaints otherwise--but making shoes for myself I did notice I tweaked my own lasts after the second pair until I got them "perfect" for my foot. So, I was happy to adopt this for customers too, especially for tweaking new (identical) bespoke lasts to account for discrepancies between right and left feet, as well as to test new patterns on. I guess since today's bespoke footwear has become such an extreme luxury/status symbol, and the makers can charge so much money, the most uneconomic aspect in time and materials of making test fitters has really become moot. Oh how times have changed.....

[dw]

Well, there are makers and makers; there are lastmakers and lastmakers. Some are good, some are just reputably good. I have talked to really highly respected shoemakers who do not recognize a high instep and a low instep. Who do not recognize or see the practicality of incorporating a long heel measurement into the last and fit. Some who do not even give much credence to the critical aspect of heel to ball measurement.

For myself, even after 50 years of making and a pretty good reputation for fit, I do not think I would want to rely solely on foot outline (no pedograph generated 'footprint') or a rough instep measure (much less an indeterminate instep point), etc..

I suspect that to the degree a maker is really diligent and industrious in gathering information/data from the foot (and the more empirical the better) and mindful in applying it to the last, the chances of getting a fit that satisfies both the maker and the customer goes up...correspondingly. But again, I know of some shoemakers who never bother with short heel or long heel or H-B or other such niceties and still achieve a consistently good fit. Or so it is said.

Me...unfortunately I am a linear thinker and cannot find it in myself to rely on smoke and mirrors or magic.

And having said that, it is probably people like me who are the reason magic and the old gods have disappeared from this world.

[anakim]

If I need to stretch the toe of a pre-existing shoe (one I had to buy off the shelf, as my shoemaking is going slowly and my dancing needed a quick solution), can I do that by wetting the area with water and pushing on it (eg with a purpose made shaped object or whatever)? I am aware that some sort of chemical solution is used by shoe repair places, and don't know if this is necessary. I know that leather deforms quite well with water, but I'm not sure about stretching the toe.
The expert at the local shoe repair shop said he couldn't do it, as any attempt to stretch the toe using the usual shoe stretchers, would stretch the metatarsal area, and I cannot afford to enlarge it in that area.
The shoe has a relatively hard, substantial toe (flamenco). I need it to stretch sideways and maybe slightly upwards, into the area of the toe box (I mean the reinforced bit). I don't know if it is reinforced with leather or that plastic stuff that heat molds. It gives a small amount under substantial pressure. I'd rather try to sell the shoes if it isn't going to work, but am really stuck at the moment without them, but made lame trying to use them.

My future plans include making my own shoes for dance, but I have several other pairs on the go for other things that are taking forever, so I hope my "cobbler" type question is not too inappropriate.

[das]

Kimberlee,

I doubt you'll have much luck stretching a reinforced toe, it's anybody's guess what the stiffener is, so I'd sell them. For future reference, commercial "shoe stretch" fluid is easily made at home: 50% tap water and 50% isopropyl rubbing alcohol.

[nickb1]

am really stuck at the moment without them, but made lame trying to use them.

What @das says. However, I've noticed that sometimes athletes cut out the offending toe section. In the UK this seems to particularly affect fast bowlers in cricket ... I have gardening boots that are painful at the heel where I have a bone spur. Shoe stretchers didn't work because of a celastic counter stiffener. So I may cut them... they were not expensive and I can stick some more leather over the heel. They don't have to look nice though whereas dance shoes may have to ...

[anakim]

Thanks a million, both of you, for your advice and tips.
I have to admit I have thought of cutting out the toe, more than once!
I'll have a think about which option: selling them or cutting out the toe and patching it!

[anakim]

In the end I found the maker of the shoes (Antonio Garcia) in a video online, he has a proper leather toe box, so I am tempted to try to stretch it. It was a weird way of making shoes - nailing onto a metal sole plate, taking the shoe off the last and then sewing it by hand (? well I thought it would be mackay stitched, but he is pulling on a thread with a needle, maybe just finishing it off?) putting on a wooden heel after taking the last out (!) Spain seems to abound in small makers that do sort of nicer work than the average shoes in the shops, as well as made to measure or orthopedic (but it's still quick and inexpensive - I once saw really, really rough hand welted and stitched soles in a market), but only one in the country I've seen that makes shoes like those of you here on this forum (Normal Vilalta in Barecelona who gets interns from Lobbs).

[nickb1]

There are at least a couple more shoemakers in Barcelona making this way. One is Ramon Cuberta, somewhere in the old town, and if I am not wrong there is another who also sells shoemaking tools on Etsy.