O.K. all, I am showing my innocence in boot and shoe making when asking this question, even which catagory to ask this question in this site.

My question is, in DW's book on western boot making he talks about using the spine area for good leather to make boots from.

I am very interested in working with crocodile and aligator ( after I get over feeling sorry for the dead creature) I really like the patterning of the scales.

When I see croc for sale it is always the belly width staring up at you leather that is sold not spine width staring up at you like in cows leather.

DW says in his book that the belly had stretch and isn't a good leather to use. But if croc always comes with the belly width, how does one make boots from a croc skin? Do you take the leather from the parimeter?

Yep I know, I am not a boot or shoe maker, but infact a last maker, but I thought I would give it a go at least. I have a bunch of cow's leather I thought I would practice with before diving into an exotic expensive leather. But I really want to know if one can use the croc belly leather and have the boot turn out o.k.

Also, when making boots from cow's leather, if one wanted to do a ton of detailed colored inlay's does one cut the inlay pieces out, dye them, skive and then set them in or, do they buy the different colors necessary to make the inlays or does it really matter?

Also, what is a good source for pig skin liner leather?

thank in advance for your responces, I really appreciate any help.

-Marlietta
Lastmakingschool.com

Pig skin liner..... Coey Tannery

Better let Lisa or Dee-Dubb answer the reptile questions.

Marlietta

When DW talks about the spine area he's referring to cow/calf or other similar animals. Most makers use belly cut in reptile.

Don

I do apologize if I wasn't clear (I thought I was) in the books.

I try very hard not to cut any leather on the backbone itself. If nothing else, on mammals it is often sunburnt.

The spine is only a point of reference. From the spine towards the belly the leather will generally stretch more than lengthwise along the spine. Best pieces are cut below the spine in the area of the kidney.

On alligator and croc the backbone area is characterized by heavy, hard, prominent ridges and tiles. Some novelty boots and purses deliberately use this area. I do not.

Crocodile is a different skin than cow or calf or kangaroo. Every type of leather has its own particular set of attributes and characteristics. Alligator is no different.

Cutting vamps in the belly of an alligator yields a firmer piece of leather than cutting vamps in any area of calf regardless of how it is aligned with regard to the backbone. Worries about too much stretch are misplaced.

Some makers cut gator on an angle, some dead straight down the belly. I cut mine straight and buy matched hides and go to some lengths match up tile size, shape and location in the vamps.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

Thanks, DW for the clearification I may have simply misread what you ment in the book.

About gator, so are you saying that because it is a firmer leather that it doesn't matter what part of the animal you cut the boots from??

I want a full gator boot. from the vamps to the back to the stove pipe up the leg. In black!! and shinny. So what part of the animal do you suggest I use for each part of the boot or because gator is a firmer leather it doesn't matter???

About my question about inlays for cow's leather, does one dye each one that is to be set in or does one buy the different colors to be set in or does it matter which way whether died or predyed.

-Marlietta
Lastmakingschool.com

Marlietta,
well you could use cow with printed gator designs, if you feel better about it (I do it, because I know no cow has been slaughter for the purpose of the skin, with gators and reptiles I'm not so sure).
Regarding your inlays dying, if you can afford to buy as many colors as you desire, it's certainly easier rather than dying yourself. If you like to dye yourself, dye the cut peaces and finish the shoe with a neutral creme. It makes life much easier, in case on a final shoe/boot you dye, you always having the risk to spoil hours of hard work.
My last tip on dying, dye a sample peace and apply the finish cream also on the sample (not on your cut components), so you can be sure how the color will finally really look, so you avoid unnecessary surprises.
Andre

Thanks, Andre, i really appreciate your input.

Where does one get a gator print cow's leather???

I looked on the net, and couldn't find anything.

Do leather dyes run???? like if you dye silk, and then wash it, the dyes bleed all over the place.

I have to admit,, I can't afford purchasing all sorts of colors. This boot and shoe making thing is very new to me!! So I am looking at dyeing. So I appreciate your input.

Alligator is raised on farms for the express purpose of harvesting the hides.

To the gator, its life is just as sacrosanct as life is to the cow. There is no ethically consistent way to justify the use of one in preference to the other.

For a full alligator boot you would need six smaller...24cm...hides or several larger ones. Don't use the tail. Alligator and crocodile is sold by the centimeter as measured across the belly. This will cost $600.00-$800.00 per hide for the smaller animals.

Using faux leathers such as alligator prints, does not decrease the demand for the real article. The average person seeing a boot made of print-gator, would decide that it was gator and to the extent that he/she admired the "look", the demand for alligator would increase.

Dying cow for inlays is a poor idea.

• First, inlay leathers need to be somewhat firm.
• Second, they need to be around 2 ounce.
• Third, they need to have an opaque finish coat dye--a "painted" or "glazed" surface.
• Fourth, dying a naked leather--a cowhide that will accept the dye and allow it to "strike" evenly--risks bleed just as you surmise. No, I take that back...it almost guarantees bleed.

Generally, we use kidskin or kangaroo for inlay work. These are small skins and a number of colours can be acquired for small money.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

Marlietta,
wholesalers should have it, I don't know about US. The coolest stuff always comes from Italy, than be copied in China. I have checked my stock, sorry no gator! If nobody else here has an address for you, I will check my sources for you, but you might email me a photo what look you like. For the finish, pls see down.
DW,
I don't know about the demand for gators, I think it's mostly about fashion, sometimes it's in sometimes it's out and you're certainly right, there is in principle no justification to make any preference from one animal to another. What I was trying to say is, that a cow is not slaughterd because of the purpose for the skin, it's for the meat and the skin is just about 10% of the value. So if tomorrow nobody would eat meat, there would be no chance of gator prints, we had to use the real one. In fact a few years back we had the BSE crisis in Europe, people stopped eating meat for almost three months and there was no more fresh material in the market, from European origin of course. Please allow me a few personal notes. I love leather, I'm making my living with it, but I think I love animals and nature more than that. As a shoe technician I've traveled all around the world and made millions of leather shoes, millions sqft of leather from thousands of cows, kids and sheep. The idea, that these animals would have been slaughterd, because of my shoe production I've could never stand it, I would had to quit. Certainly I have no problem with that, if others think different about it, it's only my personal idea. On the other hand, I'm sure we all love leather, but this should make us also be aware of the problems which are coming with that as well, like animal treatment or pollution in the tanneries. Because if we do not take care of that, than we leave this field to some crazy guys like the PETA, who are having no solution to the problem, but the publicity. Personally I have banned the use for calf leathers from certain origins, because of the cruel transportation and no leather from any tannery, which has not a proper pollution certification for my production and I was able to convince dozens of factories to do the same. I hope you don't mind my comments, I agree, this forum is may be not the right place for that and it's fine with me, if you might delete the thread, but I felt it's important to mention it at least once. It would be certainly more fun to discuss about it with a good glass - may be sometime.
For the dying part, there are two products specially made for self dying , one is from Stahl the other from Kenda Faben. You dip the leather for 5-10 sec in the dye solution and you're done. No bleeding. The leather has to be vegetable tanned, on chrome it doesn't work. It's really an interesting product, you can even dye the whole shoe, it looks great. For example you dye in blue color, the upper, lining and sole are all coming out in blue, but each one in a different shade. Supreme finishes has one product where you can make your own metallic colors, but I have not tried it yet.
Regards,
Andre

Thanks DW for your coments. especialy about the type of leather, it's wieght and how dyes bleed.

I have this leather, a lot of it laying around. Cows leather. I bought it about 11 years ago for referbashing the interior of a classic car i was working on. I didn't pay attention to whether it was veg tan or anything else, but I have decided not to do the interior and to just sell the car. This leaves me with lots of leather to play with. It is cow's leather. I was hoping upon hopes that I could dye the leather with out bleeding and makes some boots out of it. However by your comments, I guess I am just left with an albotross of a pile of leather. There has got to be a way I could turn this leather into footwear. I would hate to waste it and thought I could get away with not buying anything further.

On the other hand, it is practical to start off on the "right foot" when learning a new craft by using the proper, tools and materials so that one's efforts isn't wasted.

Andre' you hit my feeling right on the money. I realize that many of these animals (exotics to be exact) are raised for a certain purpose, the exotics for thier skin, but, I personally do not want to suport that. I have no trouble with other peoples choices, just my own. On the other hand, I see cow's leather as a by product of the beef industry. The total cow is consumed and the skin is also utilized. If I could be a vegitarian, I would. But I can't so, I feel that using the cow's skin is helping to not waste any thing.

Since I don't get out much, the admiration of my own boots in gator print cow's leather, I don't think would catch any ones' eye to much and want the real thing for themselves and thus promote the real thing. Firstly, since i am a green horn of a maker and I am just learning, spending money on the real thing just isn't cost effective and perhaps, I have to make several pairs before I would be comfortable even concidering wearing them. Which again, can not promote the exotic skin industry. Especially as many skins as DW says is required to make a pair of boots I would be to nervous that I would make a mistake or something. On the other hand, if I were a professional maker and was out there promoting my footwear, that might be a different story all together.

Thanks to both of you for your input.


Marlietta

Lastmakingschool.com

Andre, Marlietta,

Taking this over to the Speakeasy


Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

Can you dye the flesh side of leather and make it look good?

I have some GH french calf that looks good on the flesh side but its not really black.

Courtney

Never tried it but I don't we why not.

Courney I don't know about dye, but I have made myself a pair of black GH FC full cuts which I left the rough out, and waxed them repeatedly. After several applications now they may still have a texture but look just right for what I wanted.
Go for it. Learning is a process.
Paul

I don't think there would be any intrinsic harm done, but you need to be aware that even solvent/alcohol based dyes bleed.

If it were me I'd cut the components first and then dye (maybe obvious) and before that I'd experiment a little both in trying to get even coverage/strike and with what happens when you get the leather wet. You may not be lasting wet, but glues and even sweat from the foot can causes dyes to migrate.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

I am making a dress winter boot and have been thinking of using a chrome tanned-veg retan (Weinheimer) i have since I really like the color. I've read alot of misgivings about exposing veg uppers to water. Would this hold true for veg retans as well.

I am really lookimg for a durable upper that remains clean looking - not distressed. Should I just stick to straight chrome tan instead?

Patrice,

I'm not familiar with Weinheimer leathers, but I've been using veg/chrome retan leathers (Horween) for sevral years now, and I don't think there is any concern if it is kept clean and treed between wearings.

I recommend Obenaufs Leather Presrvative. Used regularly, I would think any leather with a good top finish on it would look clean for years with regular use.

Your mileage may vary, (or as DW likes to say YMMV)

Paul