Bristling at the very suggestion

Share secrets, compare techniques, discuss the merits of materials--eg. veg vs. chrome--and above all, seek knowledge.
Post Reply
Message
Author
paul
8
8
Posts: 1038
Joined: Tue Mar 08, 2005 10:00 am
Full Name: Paul Krause
Location: Prescott, Arizona, USA
Been Liked: 14 times
Contact:

Re: Bristling at the very suggestion

#376 Post by paul »

Thanks for the wish of luck. It worked!

As a matter of fact, the ends entered and exited the hole easier than ever.
11831.jpg


The looseness at the toe you see is the one spot of trouble. It was a knot. I learned what you were worried about. But I think I can fix it with a hammer! Image
I couldn't unknot it, and it was close to the vamp, I thought I could deal with it. Not so good really.

But the real point is that the wrap stayed on.

Thanks for the encouragement. Now I have an alternative.

Paul
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
gshoes
5
5
Posts: 205
Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2008 10:41 am
Full Name: Geraldine Rabey
Location: Elgin, IL, United States

Re: Bristling at the very suggestion

#377 Post by gshoes »

I just received from Macphersons my 4 ounce spool of Barbors #10 single strand unwaxed unbleached linen. $18.

I followed DW's directions in his book for measuring off the 8 strands at one time and frayed the edges with the slow motion backwards karate chop. So cool!

I purchased the boars bristles from Francis Classe along with her white synthetic sticky wax.

Geri

I staggered my ends to create the taw. I previously thought that I would be scraping threads to do that. Confusion sets in when you read about too many options at once before you can do something hands on.

I anchored my thread at midpoint. I properly waxed the threads. I set the twist and burnished the thread. I thoroughly enjoyed the process and I loved getting my pants waxy. It took me 2 hours to complete this simple task while reading and rereading the directions. I settled in on the method describing how to wrap each leg of the bristle and then counter wrapping the other leg. It took me a few trys to understand that counter wrapping means to go the other way. The first two attempts resulted in the bristle simply pulling out. I am not sure what I did wrong so I just started over . My persistence paid off and I now have two beautiful waxed ends properly attached to my little piggy bristles and I am so happy about that.

I feel like part of the mystery has been solved.

Any comments about the synthetic wax vs the more traditional coad wax?
Geri
User avatar
dw
Seanchaidh
Posts: 5830
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 1997 10:00 am
Full Name: DWFII
Location: Redmond, OR
Has Liked: 204 times
Been Liked: 122 times
Contact:

Re: Bristling at the very suggestion

#378 Post by dw »

Geri,

I was always taught that petro-chemical based substances would rot organic materials--leather...as in the case of synthetic neatsfoots oil;thread as in the case of coal tar derivatives in hand wax. This last is a point that Al was alluding to in a recent thread.

That said, many makers do use p/c based waxes--the wax in hot melt stitcher thread is synthetic (or so I've been told). And just to add insult to injury, my old teacher ended up in the waning years of his career using asphalt roofing tar. Go figure.

All that said, if you're gonna use linen of hemp...and go to all that trouble...I would rather be safe than sorry and I'd recommend sticking to rosin and pitched based waxes.

PS...the wrap and counter-wrap method is remarkably secure and strong if done correctly but it is not always easy to master. Good on you!

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member
gshoes
5
5
Posts: 205
Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2008 10:41 am
Full Name: Geraldine Rabey
Location: Elgin, IL, United States

Re: Bristling at the very suggestion

#379 Post by gshoes »

OK... So now reading through the archives I have seen many many recipes on coad. So many that my head is spinning.

I have the bees wax.
I just placed an order for the bull riders amber rosin.
There seems to be a past debate about the availability of the "PITCH".

Any one have a good source for pitch?

Also DW, you mentioned in a long ago posting that you switched from linen thread to Dacron when a customers boot inseam deteriorated from his sweat rotting the linen thread. I was wondering if this was a completely isolated case? Could there possibly have been something else that attributed to the deterioration of the thread that he possibly did not tell you or think to tell you.

Maybe he dried his shoes in front of a camp fire...melting off the protective wax....or waddled through a swampy cow pasture. Or doused them in muratic acid or oxalic acid in the process of doing some other cowboy task.

Even so, I guess that you would need the boot to stand up and not rot.

Geri
User avatar
dw
Seanchaidh
Posts: 5830
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 1997 10:00 am
Full Name: DWFII
Location: Redmond, OR
Has Liked: 204 times
Been Liked: 122 times
Contact:

Re: Bristling at the very suggestion

#380 Post by dw »

Geri,

Yes, pitch is another one of those hard to get...and rapidly disappearing...items that were so vital to shoemaking.

As for the story of the customer's deteriorated inseam...it was an isolated incident that I've never had repeated and I thought, at the time, it was simply because of the heat and sweat that the customer--a farrier--was subjected to. Looking back I am not so sure that I was not using the coal tar based wax that Al and I were talking about--Vesta Pech. Hard to know...I still have more than a couple of balls of it and I use it sparingly in my made up coad.

That said I do use dacron almost exclusively for inseaming...as much because I don't care for the the short staple of modern linen yarns as because linen yarn is hard to get and since it is susceptible to rotting (it's organic, let's not forget) offers no significant advantage over the dacron.

And when I switched to dacron, I stopped worrying about whether the coad was synthetic or not...although I love the Swedish pitch and the coad that results from it more than any other I've used.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member
gshoes
5
5
Posts: 205
Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2008 10:41 am
Full Name: Geraldine Rabey
Location: Elgin, IL, United States

Re: Bristling at the very suggestion

#381 Post by gshoes »

I found something on line called Burgandy Pitch from a website called scents of the earth. Can anyone tell me if that is the wrong kind of pitch? Is it the resin or sap from a spruce tree.

And I just broke my first awl practicing inseaming with my newly bristled waxed ends.

And then I caught a little tiny bump in my thread on the fifth hole and lost my bristle. Its not as easy as it looks. But the first few stitches were really a thrill. Back to twisting up new threads. I will try to keep these cleaner as I think that I dragged them on the floor a bit and picked up some un-needed bumps.

Dick, give me a call. I need a new awl.

Geri
User avatar
amuckart
6
6
Posts: 344
Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2005 12:45 am
Full Name: Alasdair Muckart
Location: Wellington, New Zealand
Been Liked: 5 times
Contact:

Re: Bristling at the very suggestion

#382 Post by amuckart »

Geri,

Good on you, getting the first one right is a great feeling. It's still a "yay!" moment for me when I lay up my threads and the tapers match at both ends Image I'm very used to having to fine-tune the length of some of the strands at one end to make an even taw but it's getting better with practice.

I can't remember how many seams I did before I got one where I managed to sew the whole thing without losing a bristle or breaking a thread (I'm mostly using 60+ year old hemp that's a bit past it), but persevere and you'll get there.

I braid my bristles on the way David Kilgour showed me a few years ago. It's a simple three-leg plait with one leg being the taw and the other two the bristle. There's a video of how I do it here: http://wherearetheelves.net/tag/video/
User avatar
amuckart
6
6
Posts: 344
Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2005 12:45 am
Full Name: Alasdair Muckart
Location: Wellington, New Zealand
Been Liked: 5 times
Contact:

Re: Bristling at the very suggestion

#383 Post by amuckart »

I haven't found Burgundy Pitch that was anything other than cooked-up petrochemicals. What I did do though was get some liquid stockholm tar which is used by tree surgeons to seal cuts in trees, and by equestrians as hoof dressing, and boil off the volatiles until I had something black and reasonably solid. It's comparatively cheap and wholly pine-derived. Rendering it is a *very* *very* messy, stinky, and horribly flammable process though.

The smoke at the end stages is great clouds of noxious thick yellow stuff that will precipitate out as tarry goo on whatever it touches. I might do this again sometime if I can find a big outdoor area well away from anything important. If I do, I'll render several litres though so as to never have to do it again!
gshoes
5
5
Posts: 205
Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2008 10:41 am
Full Name: Geraldine Rabey
Location: Elgin, IL, United States

Re: Bristling at the very suggestion

#384 Post by gshoes »

In my quest to make Coade for my new bristled wax linen ends I have found a source for the rosin. I am using bullrides rosin. It looks as it should be. But I may have made an error in my search for Pitch. I did order from Gotgrit and I have an email into them this morning to see if this is correct or if I just got turned around and ordered wrong. Is this what pitch should look like. Unless it melts and becomes entirely different, I would think that it would act as an abrasive addition to the coade.

Geri
11913.jpg
11914.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
User avatar
dw
Seanchaidh
Posts: 5830
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 1997 10:00 am
Full Name: DWFII
Location: Redmond, OR
Has Liked: 204 times
Been Liked: 122 times
Contact:

Re: Bristling at the very suggestion

#385 Post by dw »

Never seen it in that form. That doesn't mean it won't work--it might have been manufactured to melt more easily and quickly. [Pitch is commonly used when engraving silver and so forth. The piece is embedded in the pitch by melting the surface of the pitch. But, if I recall correctly, a relatively large amount is melted into a reservoir.]

It also looks as if there is no residual turpentine in this product at all. I used to get "medium" from Rausch Naval yards and, while brittle initially, if a lump were left on the table for any length of time it would sag into a puddle.

That said, I'd call them and ask if it is pure pitch. And if you can send it back.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member
gshoes
5
5
Posts: 205
Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2008 10:41 am
Full Name: Geraldine Rabey
Location: Elgin, IL, United States

Re: Bristling at the very suggestion

#386 Post by gshoes »

Dw,

I talked with Tom at GotGrit and he said that this is not pitch, it is grit. I guess that I need to find a litho stone to grind.

Geri
User avatar
dw
Seanchaidh
Posts: 5830
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 1997 10:00 am
Full Name: DWFII
Location: Redmond, OR
Has Liked: 204 times
Been Liked: 122 times
Contact:

Re: Bristling at the very suggestion

#387 Post by dw »

Well, what do you want grit for? It's not an ingredient in handwax...and you wouldn't want to put it in there even if it were milled fine as flour.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member
gshoes
5
5
Posts: 205
Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2008 10:41 am
Full Name: Geraldine Rabey
Location: Elgin, IL, United States

Re: Bristling at the very suggestion

#388 Post by gshoes »

DW,

You are correct. I do not want any grit in my coade. There was a mistake made in either ordering it or in shipping it. The important thing is that I did not mix in in with my hot rosin and wax yet.

Geri
janne_melkersson
5
5
Posts: 225
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2009 9:00 am
Full Name: Jan-Erik Melkersson
Location: Östersund, Jämtland, Sweden
Been Liked: 1 time
Contact:

Re: Bristling at the very suggestion

#389 Post by janne_melkersson »

Geraldine,
the pitch you are looking for is the rest procuct of pine tar made of old pine stumps and is mostly called pine tar pitch or burgundy pitch. However, it is a problem to find it these days becasue most tar of today is oil based.

But pitch could be made oil based with good result even though you will not get the old tar smell and instead of a bronze coloured tread you get a black tread. I think it should't be a problem to find it within the US.

Janne
User avatar
amuckart
6
6
Posts: 344
Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2005 12:45 am
Full Name: Alasdair Muckart
Location: Wellington, New Zealand
Been Liked: 5 times
Contact:

Re: Bristling at the very suggestion

#390 Post by amuckart »

Hi Geri,

I haven't yet had any success making code from the Gugolz pitch from gotgrit. I've tried several iterations and can't get it hard enough.

I'm still using a mix of rosin and beeswax with good success. I get good thread lock and it holds bristles well.

I learned how from this forum and put a guide on my blog that attempts to distill what I learned. You can see it here:
http://wherearetheelves.net/making-code/
gshoes
5
5
Posts: 205
Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2008 10:41 am
Full Name: Geraldine Rabey
Location: Elgin, IL, United States

Re: Bristling at the very suggestion

#391 Post by gshoes »

Alasdair,

Thank you for your response and I did check out your website. You have documented the procedure quite well.

I believe that I ordered the grit on the gotgrit website by mistake. Simply by selecting the wrong item. But Tom did contact me from Gotgrit.com and here was his response. Since you seem to be the one who did all of the tests on the pitch mixture, let me know what you think.

"I can get #82 which is harder, also you can make Gugolz pitch harder by "cooking it" longer.
Heating to just below a boil.

It is made from tree sap and comes from Sweden.

The number is the boiling point in degrees C, so #82 boils at 180F

So you may be able to bake it at 180F for 45 mins and harden it up.

I am not sure what else gets mixed with it, but I know turpentine, linseed oil
and other products like that do soften up the pitch, maybe just use less of them.

tom
lancepryor
7
7
Posts: 662
Joined: Wed Mar 31, 2004 6:42 am
Full Name: lance pryor
Been Liked: 3 times

Re: Bristling at the very suggestion

#392 Post by lancepryor »

One of the interesting things I observed in the videos of Anthony Delos and Pierre Corthay is that they use boars' bristles for inseaming and/or outseaming. I've just finished hand-sewing a pair of outseams at 10 SPI for which I used boars' bristles rather than fishing line. For anyone hand-sewing outsoles, I highly recommend giving the bristles a try!

The bristles have a couple of advantages; first, the very nature of the bristle is that they are textured/'grabby', so they really make it easy to put shoemaker's wax on them before attaching the thread. (Think about those micro-photographs of hair used by shampoo companies-- the hair has lots of texture/is scaly at a microscopic level.) So, rather than having to sand and crimp a mono-filament bristle, you just put some wax on the bristle and get to wrapping. The thread also seems to stay on the bristle a bit better, again perhaps due to the texture of the bristle.

Also, at least compared to my mono-filament, the bristles are much stiffer yet smaller in diameter, making it easier and faster to put through the awl holes.

Finally, it is pretty easy to put a curve into the end of the bristle but twisting the end around a finger or the shaft of an awl; this is helpful when sewing the waist area of a beveled waist.

Of course, you do need to be a bit more gentle with the bristles than you do with mono-filament, and because of this I'm not sure I'd want to use them for inseaming, but for outseaming I really enjoy using them.

Here are a couple of pics of my bristle and the thread after outseaming a shoe.
14417.jpg

14418.jpg



So, maybe someone else will give it a try!

Lance

ps. I believe Francis Classe has these bristles still available. see here: Francis bristle discussion

(Message edited by lancepryor on February 26, 2012)

(Message edited by lancepryor on February 26, 2012)

(Message edited by lancepryor on February 26, 2012)
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
gshoes
5
5
Posts: 205
Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2008 10:41 am
Full Name: Geraldine Rabey
Location: Elgin, IL, United States

Re: Bristling at the very suggestion

#393 Post by gshoes »

I was wondering if anyone has ever heard of any use for cat gut being used as an attachment to the inseam thread instead of a bristle. I am raising some 500 or more silk worms and I was thinking about harvesting some of there silk glands to give it a try.

Here is an interesting link to some background on silk gut.

Geri

http://www.feathersmc.com/images/T_K_N_G_Silk_gut_2.pdf

Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
gshoes
5
5
Posts: 205
Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2008 10:41 am
Full Name: Geraldine Rabey
Location: Elgin, IL, United States

Re: Bristling at the very suggestion

#394 Post by gshoes »

14601.jpg
14602.jpg
14603.jpg
14604.jpg
14605.jpg
14606.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
tomo

Re: Bristling at the very suggestion

#395 Post by tomo »

Geraldine, I've made cat gut but never used as bristles. It's really a misnomer because it's made from intestines. In my case sheep. In the 'Trade they are known as Runners (sheep) and are used/were used as sausage skins etc.
Bit messy but you need to clean them by emptying the intestine then soak them in water over night and turn them inside out. You do this by getting one end started then fill the 'pocket' with water and away you go. Once this is done you have to clean the crap off the inside, which wasn't hard just messy.Then I stretched the gut between a couple of trees to dry. Don't remember twisting it.... but when it dried it was pretty strong.
gshoes
5
5
Posts: 205
Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2008 10:41 am
Full Name: Geraldine Rabey
Location: Elgin, IL, United States

Re: Bristling at the very suggestion

#396 Post by gshoes »

Tom, The Cat gut that am referring to is actually made from the caterpillars gut. The worm is placed in a mixture of vinegar and salt water and then an incision is made behind his head and his guts and squeezed out and stretched to as much as 18".

geri
User avatar
dw
Seanchaidh
Posts: 5830
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 1997 10:00 am
Full Name: DWFII
Location: Redmond, OR
Has Liked: 204 times
Been Liked: 122 times
Contact:

Re: Bristling at the very suggestion

#397 Post by dw »

We've talked about boar's bristles versus steel bristles (or nylon monofilament bristles versus steel bristles) in the past...and the virtues of each.

I know that there are many good shoemakers who use steel bristles in preference to natural or mono.

I am not going to disparage steel bristles...I use them myself on occasion.

But I have always said that nylon bristles are easier to use than steel bristles once you get the hang of it.

The other day, after using a steel bristle for a while and then the nylon for inseaming, I realized what what going on.

I think...culturally, not using bristles on a regular basis...we tend to act and think as if a boar's bristle or a nylon bristle is just a variant of a needle. That is, of course, the way we approach steel bristles.

But that's all wrong. Once you drive your awl through the holdfast, the upper, and the welt, if you are grasping the bristle closer than one inch from the tip of the bristle, you're going to have problems. You're certainly going to make things more difficult for yourself.

The great virtue of nylon bristles is that they will turn a corner. And that given any slight guidance, they will find any hole that is in the vicinity.

So...having retained the bristles in my hand after the last stitch (never drop your bristles), I grasp the outside bristle an inch and a half to two inches from the tip. And I hold it gently.

If I feed the tip of the bristle into the hole left by the retreating awl, it goes in as if the awl itself were pulling it. Even if the awl is completely withdrawn before the bristle is fed into the hole, it almost never balks.

I then grasp the inside bristle two inches from the tip and feed it into the hole where the outside bristle is already visible. If the welt has not been stretched or if it has not been knocked out of position relative to the hole...and sometimes inside curves such as in the waist will confound the welt...the bristle will slide through all layers so easily it often astounds me. And even if it hits an out-of-position welt, it will almost always be through the upper and ready to go into the welt.

If you think of, and handle, the bristle as if it were a steel needle/bristle you will fight it always. You're forcing it and as I've said before you have to romance the bristle.

It also helps to round off the tips of the bristle...nylon, boar's or steel...before beginning to inseam.

Anyway, for those few who would like to experience the ease of a nylon bristle or would just like to revisit soft bristles, give it a try. But keep your distance, be gentle (this is the Gentle Craft, remember) and let the bristle find it's own way.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[center]Without "good" there is no "better," without "better," no "best."
And without the recognition that there is a hierarchy of excellence in all things, nothing rises above the level of mundane.[/center]
User avatar
jon_g
5
5
Posts: 207
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2009 10:46 am
Full Name: Jon Gray
Location: Annapolis Royal, Nova Scotia, Canada
Been Liked: 1 time
Contact:

Re: Bristling at the very suggestion

#398 Post by jon_g »

In defense of needles.

I've been meaning to reply to this subject for a while now, and this is also a reply to Cody's comment about needing to use a bristle for sewing with a tightly curved awl, you don't. I use needles almost exclusively, I say almost because I have a collection of natural bristles and a couple of times a year I sew with them just because.

In terms of the ability to stitch, I find virtually no difference. Of course there is some variation in the technique.

I find needles superior in a couple of regards, first in attaching to the thread, it's a snap. Second, when sewing the needles are easier to orient inside the hole.

Tips, a blunt needle, softened under a flame.

When it's all said and done it doesn't matter what you sewed it with, and I'm glad there are people out there who only use bristles, but I won't be switching back to bristles except for my occasional pair and only for the romance

:2cents:

And I have the same policy, never drop your needles, it's just asking someone to walk over and step on your thread.
User avatar
kemosabi
5
5
Posts: 250
Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2011 4:03 pm
Full Name: Nat Ledbetter
Location: Tennessee, USA
Been Liked: 1 time

Re: Bristling at the very suggestion

#399 Post by kemosabi »

I've had good success for some time now using a hybrid approach. Nylon/needle.

-Cut about 5 inches (or whatever your preferred length) of fishing line
-Flatten one end with a hammer and trim/taper the other end.
-Poke a hole in the flattened section with an awl
-Taper and wax the cord, insert into the hole and twist same as a needle (vs. twisting like a bristle)
-Viola. Ready to inseam.

Never had any problems with the cord coming unraveled and I've never broken a needle. Just make sure there's not too much thread bulk in the bristle eye or it will hang up in the holes.

Just another way of skinning the cat... :)

Cheers,
-Nat
User avatar
dw
Seanchaidh
Posts: 5830
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 1997 10:00 am
Full Name: DWFII
Location: Redmond, OR
Has Liked: 204 times
Been Liked: 122 times
Contact:

Re: Bristling at the very suggestion

#400 Post by dw »

kemosabi wrote: -Cut about 5 inches (or whatever your preferred length) of fishing line
-Flatten one end with a hammer and trim/taper the other end.
-Poke a hole in the flattened section with an awl
-Taper and wax the cord, insert into the hole and twist same as a needle (vs. twisting like a bristle)
Cheers,
-Nat
I'd like to see how you do that. I always thought that this would be a great solution to the difficulty and tedium of splitting and wrapping a bristle

But there must be something critical that I'm missing because I tried that procedure about 5-6 years ago and found that any pressure on the bristle/nylon needle at all and the hole just split wide open.

You must be using some brand of mono that I have not seen because every thing that I've run across that will not split for me (my once and future preferred method) will not flatten and allow itself to be pierced either; and vice-versa--every brand that splits, will split right to the end if hammered and holed.

If you have some tricks or a special brand...I'd be eager to try this again.
DWFII--HCC Member
Instagram
Without "good" there is no "better," without "better," no "best."
And without the recognition that there is a hierarchy of excellence in all things, nothing rises above the level of mundane.
Post Reply