Guys,

Thanks for the suggestions.

I wondered about the glue. What is the purpose of that anyway?

Sorry, I don't think the cement is the culprit. If the wrinkles ran vertically, you could make the case that the "orange peel effect" was showing up.

But with horizontal wrinkles...my guess is that you're gonna see them whether you cement or not.

Especially after you have turned your tops...effectively forcing horizontal wrinkles into the tops...the tops need to be stretched upwards while on the tree to one degree or the other.

As for what the cement is doing--it is reinforcing and stiffening the leg. It "persuades" the lining and top leather to act as if they were one piece instead of two.

Particularly if the lining leather is a different temper than the tops there is a good chance that just driving your foot into the boot will stretch the lining differently than the top itself. The results will be ugly...trust me.

If you use Hirschkleber...technically an actual glue as opposed to a cement...you might get a solid enough bonding that by the time the glue dries and flakes away from the leather, the tops will be sufficiently broken in and sagging linings will no longer be an issue.

But I doubt that doing so will address the issue of horizontal wrinkles.

Again, I suspect that this is almost entirely an off-shoot of turning the tops and the way that a particular leather responds to that process.

If you're inducing wrinkles in one direction, it only makes sense that to eliminate them you have to stretch the leather in opposition.

Or you could try using a firmer lining such as kip...firmer than the tops.

And a line or two of inconspicuous stitching doesn't hurt whether the tops are cemented to the linings or not.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member





(Message edited by dw on October 29, 2011)

Interesting. How in the heck do you stretch them upward?

Just as I described above--with a bone smoother and some Lexol.

Mind you, it's not perfect but some movement can be achieved.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

Mmm... seems if it is the turning process, it may depend on which way you turn.

I have a style of moccasin boot that this really matters when I use fabric inlays to match wedding outfits; one way causes the temporary glueing to pull such that it requires re-work most of the time.

My thoughts were if you were to turn the boot by pulling the uppers through the center (turn inside), then it would compress the outer leather and stretch the lining. If you turn by turning outwards, it would do the reverse. In this case I am not sure if one way is better or worse. It may depend on the type of upper leather vs lining leather.



Terry

Terry,

I always turn to the inside. It's much harder the other way around simply because you're asking a limited circumference to slide past the same circumference.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

Hi all,

Can anyone please help me to make improvements. I know the heel and sole are terrible and the stitch pattern does not match up on the front and back panels, but please any other comments, I will appreciate.

Derrick.

Hi Derrick,

I've found trimming the heel breast as shown (angling up and backward) provides a more "refined" look:



Cheers,
-Nat

Nat,

I have to ask forgiveness...but personally, I don't care for that look. It weakens the breast of the heel and negatively affects stability of the heel stack. More than that, it's not really harmonious with the look of a boot. What angle is correct? Where does it stop and start? There is no functional or historical rationale for cutting the breast like that.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

DW, as a life long rider, I respectfully disagree. That angle can help prevent having a foot go through the stirrup when things get sticky. I may no longer ride, but some of the stuff we did when we were actively riding would stand your hair on end.

If you're a motorcyclist, that extra bit of angle on the heel also can help keep your feet on the pegs.

If you're a flatlander, don't ride and your conveyance has four wheels, whether horse drawn or otherwise, the esthetics of heel angle have power.

My last big horse event

Nori

Nori,

I won't dispute your personal preferences or experiences...and if I had a customer come in and ask for an angle heel breast I would give them what they want.

That said, because I am located on the edge of the Great Basin (E. Oregon, NE California & Nevada) I have been making boots for buckaroos for a lot of years. [There is a real and significant difference in technique and equipment between the "buckaroo" and the "cowboy." The buckaroo is found primarily the Great Basin and works cattle much the way it was done a hundred fifty years ago--oxbow stirrups, slick fork saddles and taking your dallies.] I have never had a working hand ask me for a cut back heel.

Because he is riding an oxbow, the buckaroo wants his heels set well forward under the arch and ruler straight on the breast.

Because he is dealing with a cavvy of (usually) rough stock every morning, I would think this would be a major issue for a buckaroo if the angled breast offered that much advantage.

As a bootmaker, I have seen too many angled heels broke down in the breast and that damage often precedes the heel coming clear off the boot.

Finally, I have seen a lot of vintage boots...from an era when riding was a daily occurrence and something you needed to master completely in order to earn a living. I can't think of a single example of boots older than 1950 that had that angled heel breast.

To me it just looks...I hesitate to say "amateurish" but certainly discordant.

As they say...different strokes....

--

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

I hear ya, DW. We did a lot of straight up and straight down stuff, nothing on the flat working cattle.

Nori

No worries DW. I appreciate your experience and willingness to share it with us.

As you say; Different strokes.

I feel for Derrick. It takes a lot of guts to publish your work and humbly ask for feedback. (I've been there)

Any advice for him?

Respectfully,
-Nat

(Message edited by Kemosabi on February 14, 2012)

Nat,

You're right...it takes a lot of guts, at any level.

If I'm not mistaken Derrick is making off my book. To come that far with no previous experience is a triumph in itself. Because he is one of my students (and I try to apply this rule to anyone, my student or no) I try to back off a bit, feeling that success is never built on criticism or frustration.

Many years ago, I was confronted by a young bootmaker asking for just such "pointers," "advice" and critique. So as gently as I could (and I'm a rough old cob at the best of times)and couching my comments in first person point of view, and looking at him not at the boots, I said something like "one of the things I try to do is make all beading, sidewelt, and so forth, look as harmonious as possible. When i fail to do that, my side welt or top bead look like a fat worm crawling up the side of the boot."

Well sir, the boot in question had just such a side welt...and for years afterwards, this feller had a hard time forgiving me for criticizing his boots...even though he asked me to.

I learned my lesson on that one.

Derrick's learning. My best advice would be to "look for three things improve upon in the next pair...no more than three (it does no good to wallow in self pity) and no less than three lest one falls prey to self-congratulation."

My teacher passed that one on to me and it applies to every maker no matter how skilled.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

I was watching a video I have of a UK shoemaker, and he uses a water-based edge ink before putting on his edge wax. Likewise, CarreDucker talk about using what appears to be a water-based product, but I couldn't find anything via google on the product they mention.

Does anyone have any experience or thoughts about these water-based inks? I think they look nice as they are quite transparent and rather light in color.

Thanks,
Lance

Lance,

Wax burnishing ink (eg Fiebings) is water based. Unfortunately it only comes in black and brown.

It's a wax emulsion. I've made one attempt to make some myself, but it failed. I need to control the temperature of the starting wax and water/ammonia very carefully before mixing.

If I can get this to work, I'll then look into adding different dyes.

Rick:

Thanks. I have some of the burnishing wax, but the stuff I'm talking about is much more watery, and doesn't seem to be a wax-related product. -- see the CarreDucker blog for a discussion. Don't know more about it than what I've seen, it seems to be some sort of dye in a water solution (perhaps an aniline dye? Hmmm, maybe I'll buy some aniline powder and try it out).

On the topic of burnishing wax, I think it looks very nice, but I've never successfully sealed it so that it remains water proof. Putting edge wax on top of it has not rendered it water proof in my experience.

Anyone with any experience on that topic please feel free to add comments.....


Thanks,
Lance

Lance,

Ok, now ya got me thinkin about it... I have used a product called TransTint from the Woodcrafter store. I think it is an aniline dye, liquid concentrate. It may (must) be diluted with alcohol or water, according to the directions.

I've only used it with alcohol to spray with an airbrush... but now that you mention it, and in light of recent info on the Careducker site about surface prep with gum tragacanth, I think it would be very interesting to try in water.

I too have struggled to achieve subtle coloring for edge and bottom work. I'd love to have a reproducible approach.

I will say that wax burnishing ink plus hard wax is pretty waterproof, as far as I can see. Of course, everything wears off. The reason I'm attracted to the burnishing ink is that it does penetrate considerably which contributes to the water/wear resistance.

I agree with DW about undercutting the breast of the heel. I also build for buckaroos in the great basin but my customers tend to ride in some pretty rough steep country. I have only been asked to undercut a heel breast once and I refused. I have a policy in my shop that I will build what the customer wants unless it is mechanically unsound. In my opinion an undercut heel is unsound. My buckaroos also ride oxbows and request heavier shanks, which I am happy to do.

Don

Don,

Well, and there's a good point expressed very nicely--as makers we do have some responsibility to educate the customer and not willfully sell or make something that we know is flawed. Sometimes we use materials and techniques that we might later question or decide are not the best we can do, but once we reach that realization the better part of integrity is to seek a remedy.

I too think the undercut breast is unsound. And I have seen stirrups actually wear a groove or notch into the breast such that any hand who found himself on some "wild young bronco" blowing up under him would be in very real danger of not coming out of the stirrup when things got "western." In that regard it has less to do with the terrain than the animal and the equipment. But the undercut breast increases the odds of a wreck.

On another note...to both Nat and Derrick...I am a firm believer and adherent of the "three things" rule. Derrick has already identified three things he is not happy with...that's a pretty good start on the road to improvement and real skill. He doesn't need my input. And in fact, developing that critical eye is one of the most important talents a maker can acquire...but it must come from within.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member



(Message edited by dw on February 14, 2012)

Lance,
If you build up enough edge ink and burnish it to a mirror finish, it's waterproof. I'm not sure what you're looking for, the bottom will soak up water once it's worn.
In Marcell's video Part 5, I think he applied the dye first then edge ink. Is that the kind dye you're talking about?
Joe

I think it is Thornton who says that mixing a powdered (water based ?) dye with Gum Tragecanth is the way to do those beautiful transparent forepart finishes.

Of course the nuances of application and post application techniques are missing in his description but I am using a variation of his formula with a little yellow latigo dye and some brown burnishing ink (edge ink) mixed with the gum dragon.

It isn't perfect...I haven't found a source of powdered leather dye...but when it comes close, it is pretty spectacular.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

^ BTW, I suspect that the old (?) Fiebings Bottom Stain is a variation on Thornton's recipe. But it is too dark and goes on too unevenly for my taste.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

Check out Dharma Trading for obscure dyes

http://www.dharmatrading.com/dyes.html

and also their page on chemicals:
http://www.dharmatrading.com/topnav/chemicals/

Sounds like their "pinata dyes" might work
http://www.dharmatrading.com/html/eng/4302818-AA.shtml?lnav=paints.html

They also cary damar varish (under chemicals) those refillable dyes sticks and glass eyedroppers.

I've always had good service from them

Georgene

Goods Japan sells alcohol-soluble powdered dyes, and various other things. I like their knives, and have had great service from Simon who runs it.

http://www.goodsjapan.jp/servlet/the-Leather-Craft-Items-cln-Leather-Dyes%2C-Pow dered/Categories