sewing machines

[dw]

Prompted by Lisa's sage remarks, I'm going to wax a bit philosophical here...

Boot and shoemaking is not a hobby craft. So many of us get into it thinking that it is. Maybe necessity forces us to try our hand, or maybe just curiousity. But there is no part of making a pair of shoes by hand that does not require an investment in money and time and dedication.

You can't do this in your back bedroom...not and do it well. You can't do this with makeshift tools or stinting on materials or tools. Not and do it well.

And for every shortcut you take...especially as a beginner...for every tool you cobble together from old ripsaw blades or exacto knives, you set yourself up for frustration and failure.

This includes sewing machines, lasts, knives cements, leathers, etc., etc..

This is not to say that you absolutely have to have a Landis line finisher or even a curved needle machine. Or any of a dozen other machines or tools. But every short-cut, every compromise, every substitution, has its price. (Just as every form of refuge...)

For instance...it may seem pretty straight-forward to hand sew an outsole. But to do it right, traditionally right, takes far more skill and time and investment of mental resources than a curved needle will ever take. In the end, the curved needle is probably cheaper. Not better just cheaper.

You can buy a standard size last and modify it to fit a foot. This is the "additive" method of "lastmaking," fitting and bespoke shoemaking. Or you can take a block of wood and carve it by hand--the subtractive method.

Personally, I wish I had the knowledge and skills and tools to carve individual pairs of lasts. I might...after 40 years in this business...have a pretty good foundation in terms of knowledge.

But when I began I knew nothing of toe spring, heel pitch, bottom radius's, heel radius's, inside cones, girths, etc.. It would have been foolish of me to try to carve lasts without a prolonged and intensive apprenticeship with a master of that Trade.

Nevertheless, I did try. The last was beautiful--a real work of art. The customer complained that the arches were too high, among other things.

And trying to get a pair...a matching pair by hand and by eye was a daunting prospect for me...at least at that stage of my career.

Most US makers take a standard last and modify it with build ups. If nothing else all those aspects--pitch and radius's, etc.--are fixed for the model and you can rely on them. To the point that you can concentrate on fitting the foot and not shaping a block of wood.

And in the process you learn what a last is supposed to look like and how it functions.

Don't get me wrong I admire the Anthony Delos's of the word. If I were younger I would go to Paris and camp out on his door step until he took pity on me and offered to teach me.

It's not an either/or but, again, each approach has its own demands and price.

Bottom line, at some point you have to commit...one way or the other.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[rosesj]

Lisa,

It is not that I want to cut corners on the lasts. It is that I wish to begin learning with a functional and relatively fit last. Given that I am doing this for the most part, on my own, I would like to remove as many variables to my finished product as possible, until I have a grasp on at least some part of the process. I would hate to do a 'good job' on the making only to have done a very lousy job on the fitting. All are important to the bootmaker, I recognize this; However, I learned how to suture before I learned how to cut. I'm jumping off a cliff here, but it is open eyed and anticipated. I'm not worried about doing it, I am enjoying the anticipation. But it sure would be nice for my boots to fit before the 10th pair.


DW -
It is not that I don't want to commit to learning how to build up lasts. However, what I wish is that I have a 'buildable' and 'functional' last to begin with. I can certainly buy a standard last, do my best to build it/grind it, and then begin the building process. However, in the end, besides the learning curve of simply building a pair of boots or shoes and the basic and inherant curve therein, I will be building on a last which might not fit correctly in the first place.

Trial an error is fine. I have no doubt that I can learn it on my own, to a basic degree, and less so than I could with education, without a doubt. I understand the basics to a minimal degree and after about 10 pairs... I might actually have fit the last appropriately. In that time, I would have learned valuable information, no doubt. I guess my basis is to not have so much inherant error from the beginning.

And committing is a difference DW. Your version of committing to boot and shoemaking corresponds to my committment to medicine. It is unlikely that I will reach the finish and character of your boots, because we are differnt people and have both different abilities as well as time to spend on it. However, simply because I do not delve into the intricacies to the degree you do does not mean I cannot perform and produce something which I can be proud to put on my feet. It is similar to photography... just because you can't get your apperature set for your boot photos doesn't keep you from taking pictures.

I'll get this figured out.

Thanks
Shane

[artvanhecke]

Shane,

In DW's book he has a matrix of last sizes vs. the measurements. My foot very nearly approximates a 12C so that's what I ordered from Jones and Vining. Using that last worked pretty well. It is hard to tell what I would change to make the fit better. I have some 12Ds on order (not J&V) and I will see what happens when I make them up. The J&V lasts were $100 delivered. This all works if you have "standard" feet, things will get a little different when I find a relative with "strange" feet. I'm just having fun making boots for myself, wife and son will be the next guinea pigs.

Dick Anderson also has some lasts you might want to try, they are cheaper, and I am thinking of using a pair of them to grind a little "pointedness" out of the toe.

Art

[rosesj]

I think that's what I'm going to do. I have relatively standard feet I believe. About 11D. I'll get a good measurement and go from there. Who knows... I might be expecting more trouble than my situation states.

I have DWs book already. I think I have to quit trying to plan for everything and just jump in. Hard, given my daily work, but none-the-less... I think it is time to just quit planning and start doing.

Thanks Art.

[dw]

Sane,

In the first place, my comments about committing did not assign any relative value to the level of commitment you might bring vs. what I might bring. I simply meant that to the extent you're looking to reach a certain skill level (or "look' or objective) by the cheapest, the quickest, the most convenient route possible, you're not committed and the chance that you'll get anywhere near where you want to go are diminished accordingly.

Given that I am doing this for the most part, on my own, I would like to remove as many variables to my finished product as possible, until I have a grasp on at least some part of the process. I would hate to do a 'good job' on the making only to have done a very lousy job on the fitting.

That's what I was saying...there are so many variables that come along with building a last; so many variables that you don't have the background or experience to understand, at this point, that the simplest and most instructive approach is to start with a standard size last and modify it to fit your foot.

I have no dog in this race, as I said if I had to do it all over again, I would probably start out trying to carve lasts from scratch (as I related above, that's exactly what I did start out doing) but I am not in medicine trying to learn this as a second career or as a sideline. If you have the time, money, "true grit"...and commitment...to pursue lastmaking at the same time as you pursue bootmaking (and medicine) then more power to you.

Because it's almost another Trade all by itself and every bit as complex as shoemaking.

And you will make horrendous mistakes...and repeatedly especially if you don't have a solid foundation of how a last is supposed to look and function.


[hr][/hr]
Without "good," there is no "better," without "better," no "best."
And without the recognition that there is a hierarchy of excellence in all things, nothing rises above the level of mundane.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[center]Little Jack Dandiprat in a white petticoat,
The longer he lives, the shorter he grows.[/center]

[rosesj]

Perhaps there is a major misunderstanding here.

I know that last building is out of my realm. I have no desire to do it. I want to find a last maker who will make me some well fit lasts. I want a last which I have confidence in fitting me so I can put my energy upon the part I want to do at this point which is bookmaking. I also recognize that without hands on help, it will be a big undertaking simply modifying a standard last to a good degree. Hence looking for a professional who can make me a well fit set from the get go.

When, down the road, I become proficient at bootmaking and wish to branch out further, then I will be able to add last modification to a greater degree. But beginning from a dead stop with all this only serves to make it more difficult.

So I think... We are talking about two different things. I don't want to begin last making at all. And while I absolutely agree with Lisa, that last modification is a key element in understanding and becoming proficient in bookmaking, I simply have the immediate desire to have some well fit lasts made for me so I can then go about the process of beginning to make boots.

I would rather purchase every last I use and make good boots which I am proud of, than to bang my head against a wall trying to figure out if the poor fit was my choice of leather, technique, lasting... Or the last itself. When I have an understanding of the basics of leather choice and how to build the boot, and have insoled and outsoled several pair, I will have room to begin thinking about modifying my last better, or Lord forbid, think about making my dad or boys a pair. I'll certainly have the desire to make well fit boots for them, and by then hopefully I will have at least some of this under my belt.

If I have well built lasts fitted by "someone who knows" then at least that very obvious and forseeable variable has been removed... And all I have is to look at my technique and skills.


I'm not trying to shortcut anything (except have room for equipment). In fact, I am attempting to maximize everything I can control in an effort to give myself the best opportunity at success. If I could purchase a kit that had a very good choice of leather, with custom built lasts, sewing machine, tools, and a finisher...I would do so, because as many variables as possible would have been removed from the equation as possible. However, I have to piece all this together from various sources... And the logistics of just beginning can lead you down many unknown paths. I wish to do this well.

[jesselee]

All,

Where can I get lasts duplicated in wood by supplying a mold of the original? I want to do a range of 7-12 in 1860's measurements.

Cheers,

JesseLee

[dw]

Shane,

Yes, I did misunderstand you...but only to some extent.

The problem begins with the fact that commercial lastmakers don't often (if ever) take measurements from your feet or the feet of your customers. So...you must provide the measurements. But how is the lastmaker to know where, on the foot, you took the measurements? Or how tight? Or even how the position of those measurements on the foot relates to the last?

For instance, you say you have my book...most lastmakers don't recognize a high and low instep, even though it is an old and venerable girth point. I do. The book teaches it.

If you give the lastmaker an high instep girth, he won't know what to do with it. And if you also give him a low instep girth he is likely to incorporate it into the last in a position that bears no relationship to where you actually took it off the foot.

And...if you use my book...you should understand that almost every bootmaker uses a "closed" system. The way I measure the foot determines a lot about how the last itself will be configured. The way the last is configured determines how the patterns will be cut and how they will fit on the last. The way the patterns are cut determines how the boots will be assembled and that also determines how the boots will sit or fit on the last. It's all inter-dependent. Ourobouros.

I guarantee you that if you are going to use my system to make boots, you can't just use any old (or new) last. It needs to be shaped a certain way, have a certain heel pitch, toe spring cone configuration, etc.--all the things that are embodied in a model number. Failing that, you will not be able to rely on the fit or the appearance.

The only way around this...that I can see...is to search the world over for a competent lastmaker and then hire him. At a competent lastmaker's wage. Of course, you will need to teach him to measure feet like you do, or at least see feet the way you do. And he will have to study the lasts that my system is based upon so that he can duplicate the basic parameters while at the same time incorporating the measurements you obtain from the customer's foot.

I mean, Shane, this is all do-able and you shouldn't let me discourage you. But, at the same time, if I'm reading you right it would be irresponsible of me not to tell you that this whole enterprise is a whole lot more complex and complicated than it seems.

Fundamentally, you're talking about custom or bespoke lasts but made by a third party. I am going to be real surprised if you can come up with a person or company that will make you lasts that fit the description you provided above...without almost as much expense, and failure, and trial and error, and frustration as if you were carving those lasts yourself.

But like I say...my words aren't written in stone and I'm sure that there are a multitude of other approaches. YMMV.

[hr][/hr]
Without "good," there is no "better," without "better," no "best."
And without the recognition that there is a hierarchy of excellence in all things, nothing rises above the level of mundane.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[center]Little Jack Dandiprat in a white petticoat,
The longer he lives, the shorter he grows.[/center]

[donrwalker]

Here comes my 2 cents worth. What I find, and I think what DW will agree, is that fitting is subjective. If you and I had identical feet, we might still require a slightly different last because of the way we want our boot to feel. Custom fitting is a big part of what we do. I agree with DW in that trying to get a last maker to make exactly what you desire is likely to be a long expensive and exasperating process.

Sorry for butting in

Don

[courtney]

Shane, I ordered bespoke lasts from springline in england, it cost big bucks and I have been building them up and grinding off for two years!

Some of that is because I keep finding out problems I didnt know at the time, some cuz I didnt know how to measure right in the first place, and I think maybe there might have been some confusion on the other end.

I think that Marlietta at lastmaking school will do it for you. I'm not sure how that works with location and all that.

I had the Exact same desire as you when I first started doing this but it didnt work out the way I had hoped. If you send your measurements to someone you still have to know how to get them and how to find them on the last, and if you can figure that out you could probably figure out how to stick pieces of leather on the last untill it matches.

D.W. has uploaded Golding books that show how to build up the last.

This stuff is kinda hard, but doable if you stick with it I think.

Courtney

[sorrell]

If we were on Facebook I'd "like" DW's last comment.

Lisa

[large_shoemaker_at_large]

Shane

I have been following this thread and others.

Welcome to the shoe addiction.

I won't go into a long explanation but I have done prosthetics, orthotics and custom footwear, mostly ortho. and all sorts of wood work.

Used to be an RN and worked OR for 6 years + ortho ward and cast room.

Were are you located ?

Do you have access to a Cast tech or a Prothetist/Orthotist that could do a decent cast of your feet. Can you get a pedograph print.

With a STS cast sock, or fiberglass cast easy to do.

First you must decide the heel height and consider the construction methods. ie the heel with a counter will be thicker than the feather line. Read Golding.

I will do my best to make your last. PM me so I don't break any rules.


Now. Shane I will not discourage you. DW and others have said the learning curve can be a long one. But I am a great believer in peoples abilities.

I have seen you ask a lot of very good questions and that in it's self shows a penchant to learn. If you get a shop set up maybe you can ply me with beer and food and a stream with trout, to spend a day or two at your shop.

There is some things best learned right off the start. If nothing less than basic cementing skills, skiving etc.

You can make a bunch of fitters as practise before you cut into the $$ stuff.

I have a Pfaff post bed, Saggita sciver, old F Landis curved needle ( don't need ). Sutton 1250 finisher. Home made vacume press. and a wack of hand tools. A few of them home made stitch setters also crimping boards and the like.

Have the ability to to vacume bag laminations.

[chuck_deats]

Shane,
Agree with most everything written here, but advice is usually worth about what it costs. Been through the drill with DW's books (Excellent)and no teacher. Measure your feet and order a set of standard lasts that are close. Modify the lasts if you think they need it. Start making fitters. Use decent leather, does not have to be expensive. You will screw up, but that is how you learn. You will learn more from that first set of fitters than all the words written here or anywhere else. BTW, inseaming fitters is excellent practice. Still make fitters for every pair of boots
Chuck

[paul]

And I would "Like" yours too Lisa!

I thought I was onto something when I achieved an open path of communication with last maker Bill Tippett.

I figured (wrongly) that if I could take measurements where he took them, then I would have more control of the challenge of fitting up a last for some individual. I felt very smart about it too. And I got away with it for the most part until last year, a good five years later.

Then the universe said 'Whoa! Not so fast hotshot! You've been ignoring the Long Heel.'

Three ladies showed up in my shop with the same degree of "low volume" foot, with VERY narrow heels and ankles. I'm talkin' AAAAs, with very lean EE foreparts! I suffered through the lesson. I now fully appreciate why this is such an important measurement, especially for pull on boots. In fact, I think I was successful with a boot delivery last night, a very flat swollen foot, because I used to the LH to determine where to place the instep girth measurements on the last, and still have it grip the instep.

Was the LH a new concept for me? No, but I had shined it on while I was learning to fit lasts like a last maker and not a boot maker. The last maker doesn't make use of this girth point.

I'll say I suffered! I almost threw up my hands and said, I quit! But I'm too determined to master this.
Joseph Campbell says 'our life reveals our character'. I guess now I have a new respect for what I can tolerate. And I'm aware it's not over.

Paul

[rosesj]

I thought, as Paul thought in the last post, that with measurements and a scan a relatively close set of lasts could be produced for me. This was an error in assumption, it is plain to see given the responses.

This is a process and I appreciate the willingness for you to offer your knowledge.

[dw]

Shane,

Even with a scan of the foot and a CADCAM turned last, the fit can be off...way off. The same can be said about plaster cast derived lasts with regard to fit and, more importantly, the shapes you need to make a boot or shoe.

There are several reasons for this...the first is that fit is subjective. A shoemaker doesn't just fit the foot he has to fit the customer's head, as well.

Another reason is that all too often the scan is "static." Meaning that the data collected is taken from the largest dimension possible--the surface of the skin. Such an approach fails to take into consideration the elasticity of the foot, the volume of blood that has pooled in the foot and many other factors--muscle tension, ligament rigidity, etc..

Yet another consideration is that lasts have specific shapes meant to give shape to the shoe or boot. Shapes that are footwear style specific. Boot lasts don't have as much curve in the heel as do shoe lasts; loafer lasts are very different from oxford lasts.

In passing,maybe it's appropriate to reiterate something I have tried to pass on to all my students...

"Bootmaking is dead easy--ultimately it's just muscle memory; but fitting is another thing altogether. That's where the magic happens or doesn't. And fitting is a lifelong study."

As difficult and as daunting as fitting up a standard last might seem, you would do yourself a great injustice if you were to sidestep it...even for a little while. Every measurement, every foot, presents it's own problems and opportunities.

And in the end, you're the only one who can address those problems...if only because you're the one who is responsible.

[hr][/hr]
Without "good," there is no "better," without "better," no "best."
And without the recognition that there is a hierarchy of excellence in all things, nothing rises above the level of mundane.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[center]Little Jack Dandiprat in a white petticoat,
The longer he lives, the shorter he grows.[/center]

[sorrell]

My oldest daughter Morgan has decided she wants to make ladies gloves, and a generous new friend has donated a glove making machine. We brought it home over the weekend. This machine falls into the category of "Wow! I have no idea what it does but it's so cool I want one!" Is there anyone out there who can tell me more about this machine, what it does and how to use it?

13977.jpg

Lisa

[sorrell]

Sorry the picture's so big--I thought I'd be a big girl and attempt to use iPhoto on my new Mac. I HATE iPhoto and will use Adobe Photoshop the next time.

[dw]

Lisa,

I'm sure Randee will see this. she used to work for a company that made gloves. You may want to talk to her at AGM.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[amuckart]

Fascinating. I had no idea Willcox & Gibbs made glover's machines. Thanks for posting that. I look forward to seeing what comes off it.

I share your hate of iPhoto. I use Google's picasa instead. The UI is a bit odd, but it works very well.

[tjburr]

Lisa,

I do not know if it would be helpful, but I have a book called "Glovemaking for Beginners" by Natalie S. Woolf that goes into how to make patterns etc.

I purchased it to look at making a pair by hand sewing; this is what it was written for. I never did get around to making a pair, so I am not sure how good it is. It however provided a good read at the time. Also I know someone who at the time made 10+ pair of gloves that I know of and he thought it was worthwhile.

Is Morgan going to Redmond? I could bring it along. Otherwise, if she is interested, email me and we can discuss a loan of the book.

Terry

[tjburr]

Lisa,

Just so you know, it is a book primarily on making leather gloves.

Terry

[sorrell]

Terry,
I'm sure Morgan would love to borrow the book if you can spare it for a while. I saw you at Wichita Falls but never tracked you down and said hello. Paige and I will be in Oregon but not Morgan. See you soon!

Lisa

[kevindeleon]

Does anyone have any experience with the brand econosew? My wife is a fashion designer and is actually interested in buying a post bed machine for some of her more technical detailing, and that just happens to coincide with my need for one for sewing uppers! Thought I would see if anyone has any experience (good, bad, ugly) with these machines. From my experience, most industrial machines are pretty close in quality...or at least in my opinion. Here is an example of the brand.

Econosew 7in. Post-bed Lockstitch Machine 138E6B w/ Roller Foot

[glenn]

I know about the machines, but I have not used that particular model. They are Chinese clones, which isn't a bad thing. There are several companies in China that makes these,and they'll put whatever name you'd like on the machine. I ordered a Juki clone from probably the same company that makes the Econosew; I know they make some other popular machines being sold by many companies under different names in the states. The machine I imported works fantastic, and it is a solid, heavy, and reliable machine. You can email me for more information (I don't work for any sewing machine company).

There are alternatives here in the states. I ordered a Singer post bed from a southern US dealer that is very old, but it works really well once you get it adjusted. You can probably get one of those from the guy for less than 400 dollars. Parts are easy to get as well.

Then there's always Craigslist.