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 Post subject: Re: Hand Wax / Coad
PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 4:28 am 
4

Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2008 10:00 am
Posts: 181
Location: Mountain View, AR
Courtney,

Well, I don't know. Like I said, the hemp is new to me. I'll let you know when the dust settles.

As for metal bristles........not for me. Not until they quit making fishing line. Dee-Dubb's split nylon bristle technique is so trustworthy and eloquent. Doesn't take much time at all to attach either.


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 Post subject: Re: Hand Wax / Coad
PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 6:10 am 
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Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2000 9:00 am
Posts: 1115
All,

Sorry, crazy week here--little keyboard-time.

DW, samples I just sent you were "Real Stuff" (thin and less viscous) good to try painting on felt, and a tiny jar of genuine old "Stockholm Tar" (thicker nicer smelling for reference). The later was not from Auson, but from a UK veterinarian supply in the '90s, but smells the closest to the genuine old Swedish pitch. Auson products are all from China now, as there is no more destructive turpentine distilling in Sweden (or Scandinavia). The nice Chinese fellow (Mr.Wong?) at Auson explained that the "pine" family of trees used in China differ from those in N. Europe, hence the different consistency and smell. IOW the old stuff is simply no more. Auson currently sells a solid "pitch" too, and we've tried it. It's very soft, coarse and grainy with tons of impurities,, solids, "seeds and stems", and smells nothing like the old Swedish pitch.

As I got it from Rausch, the chunk "pine pitch" we loved was made up, mixed from "X" parts pine tar (aromatic/softener), and "Y" parts pine rosin. It was not cooked-down tar only, rather a tar and rosin blend. I've tried six ways for Sunday to get the tar to thicken on its own. In the end I just add it to chunk rosin and make my own "pitch" like Rausch described.

Jake, if your wax has that much "tack", that your sewing threads seize-up if you don't keep them moving briskly, I'd say it's just about perfect. Shoemakers' wax is an adhesive--not a lubricant. If you experience too much "tack", rub a light swipe of beeswax over your waxed-end so they won't bind mid-stitch. As you see/feel the wax draining off your thread as you sew, re-wax it every so often to keep it in the condition it was when you started (see Rees:1813).

Hemp vs. Flax--Hemp yarn was made from the hemp plant (cannabis) and flax from the flax plant--two different plants, two different fibers. Hemp was prized for millennia for nautical rope-making, sailcloth and canvas-weaving, shoe thread, etc. because it would not rot or degrade easily when wet. Flax, a much smoother fiber, looked nicer, but was not as durable. Sometime in the mid 20thc genuine hemp shoe thread began to go out of production, and coarse, unbleached (thus stronger) flax was re-named "hemp". The bleached white (thus weakened) flax was sold as "flax" or "linen" thread, the unbleached as "hemp".

With the current resurgence in real hemp for "green" textiles, we've been able to get some real hemp yarn for making threads from Eastern European sources, but like all fibers it's now processed on cotton machinery, and the long fiber staples (whence its inherent strength) are broken off too short, so it's still not quite "right", but better than flax/linen yarns when broken that short. We did find a woman to hand-spin us some long-staple hemp fiber yarn to test. It was around $30 for a 2 oz ball, but man alive is it strong.

Frank Jones might know.... years ago in the UK they made and sold nylon "bristles", 24 in a waxed paper packet. These were stiffer than soft ol' fishing line, and closer to 7"-8" long like real bristle. The end for wrapping was corrugated to better grip the taw of the thread. They are reusable (up to a point), and I'm still using ones I bought in the '80s-'90s. Tried various "wire" alternatives and didn't care for them. But, latest batch of real black 8" bristles from India we got last month were nigh on to $250 per kilo landed--so pretty much "museum demo use only" at that price, like so many other common (once) essentials for traditional shoe/bootmaking. Like it or not, what we're each doing, in our own school/genre, is becoming more "historical", experimental archaeology than anything else. Soon we can all be stuffed and mounted in a museum Image


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 Post subject: Re: Hand Wax / Coad
PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 6:51 am 
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Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2008 10:00 am
Posts: 181
Location: Mountain View, AR
Martha,

Whew! Wish I just knew what you have forgot! Thanks for chimming in.

I had already planned NOT to boil off the Real Stuff, but attempt to make our "old-timey" pitch. As I have said, "I'll be back!"

Thanks for the input!


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 Post subject: Re: Hand Wax / Coad
PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 7:31 am 
5

Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2008 10:41 am
Posts: 205
Location: Elgin, IL, United States
Jake,

Whoops? What did I miss? Did Martha say that we should NOT be boiling off the real stuff?

geri


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 Post subject: Re: Hand Wax / Coad
PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 8:40 am 
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Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2008 10:00 am
Posts: 181
Location: Mountain View, AR
Geri,

I don't believe he ever really said. I was thinking I would start from there (no boil-off). This process will probably take me several attempts.

Take care!


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 Post subject: Re: Hand Wax / Coad
PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 9:12 am 
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Joined: Wed Jan 01, 1997 10:00 am
Posts: 4628
Location: Redmond, OR
Al,

Oh, somehow I got the impression that the small sample was Auson. No matter, thanks in any event.

I have to say that I dislike the smell of the Real Stuff and as you say it is thin.

The pine tar you sent me in the small jar leaves a rather thick, black and viscous coating on the felt even when thinned 1:1 with turpentine. The residue of the Real Stuff, thinned 1:1 is almost greasy and only marginally brown.

My quandary now is whether to proceed with my homemade felted tar experiments. I was all set to order some felt and a 3 litre can of the dark Auson. But with the small sample you sent me being not-Auson, I hesitate. I don't want to get invested that heavily in a product that is not significantly different than the Real Stuff.

Anyone seen or used the Auson Dark Pine Tar?

As for the Rausch Naval Yards pitch...I called and talked to the owner at one point and I took notes as he told me about the process they went through to make their various grades (stiffnesses) of pitch. I even wrote out my notes and posted it on the Forum (the old Forum) in response to similar questions about it. I have lost or secreted away (where even I cannot find them)those notes to my deep regret.

However, as I recall it, it was not a "recombinate" process. As I recall it, the pitch was derived directly from the burning/heat reducing procedures and the grades were achieved simply by how much turpentine was burnt off.

I would be interested in real hemp yarn myownself. I got some that was touted as real hemp from Goetz some years ago and found it to be so coarsely spun that I could not rub a ball of hand wax against it without literally tearing it apart.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member


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 Post subject: Re: Hand Wax / Coad
PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 10:58 am 
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Joined: Wed Mar 31, 2004 6:42 am
Posts: 548
DW:

You might try the Horse Health brand pine tar. It is quite thick, sort of a peanut butter consistency. Ted says it may be from Sweden -- he say he spoke at some point with the owner, who said quite a while ago he ordered a large quantity from Sweden and has been trying to work his way through it. If nothing else, the price is right -- under $10 for a quart. It has a slightly smokey odor. The Auson Kiln Burned stuff is thinner and has a very smokey aroma.

Lance


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 Post subject: Re: Hand Wax / Coad
PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 3:50 am 
4

Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2008 10:00 am
Posts: 181
Location: Mountain View, AR
Geri,

Finally got around to spending some time in the shop.

I love your wax! I think you did a splendid job!

Your recipe would be considered a "winter" wax. My shop is around 65 degrees. I could easily indent the wax with my fingernail. The wax coated dacron with a few strokes. Of course it coated linen superbly. It reminded me of "my-damn-near-perfect" batch many years ago. It was messy and sticky! Exactly how it should be, as described by Dee-Dubb and Al.

I received my gal of "Real Stuff" yesterday. Now my problem is how to proceed. I "WAS" going to try to make some pitch, but now I'm considering trying to duplicate Geri's recipe. The problem is how much did she reduce the "Real Stuff".

Will keep you informed.

Once again Geri.......GREAT JOB!

Jake


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 Post subject: Re: Hand Wax / Coad
PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 4:15 pm 
1

Joined: Fri Feb 05, 2010 10:00 am
Posts: 41
Location: California
Jake,

Looking forward to hearing your progress. As I suspect that I will run out of my limited supply of "olde" pitch in a year or two, I'll be interested to hear about alternatives.

Also, if you're keen on some actual boar bristles to go with your authentic linen/help and wax, let me know - I'm happy to play the bristle pusher on the Colloquy =)


Francis


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 Post subject: Re: Hand Wax / Coad
PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 8:00 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2008 10:00 am
Posts: 181
Location: Mountain View, AR
Francis,

Nice of you to offer. I'll keep it in mind.

Thanks! Jake


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 Post subject: Re: Hand Wax / Coad
PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2012 7:30 pm 
5

Joined: Sat Sep 19, 2009 9:00 am
Posts: 206
Location: Fort Worth, Texas, USA
Check out this recipe for pine pitch glue. Not sure I would want to mix moose dung with my coadImage

making pitch glue

Terry


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 Post subject: Re: Hand Wax / Coad
PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 8:48 am 
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Joined: Wed Jan 01, 1997 10:00 am
Posts: 4628
Location: Redmond, OR
BTW, I was just talking to a very famous and highly regarded shoemaker (I've been told that June Swann considers him among the very best working) in Norway, and he told me he uses the white dacron from the US for inseaming...maybe Teklon.Image

Image

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member


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 Post subject: Re: Hand Wax / Coad
PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 7:59 am 
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Joined: Sun May 17, 2009 7:03 am
Posts: 163
Location: Urbana, IL, USA
I've got this box of something sold as "stitching wax", not sure now where it's from--EC or Panhandle, I think. It's very hard, and a golden color. Tried using it, but it doesn't seem to really coat the thread (Teklon) very well.

So, can I melt this stuff, and add pitch or rosin or oil or beeswax to it to make it soft and sticky? I've got the very last of the good wax sample Geri made & sent me, to compare to, but being unsure what this golden stuff is, I'm not sure where to start. Or if I should just start from scratch and make my own coad altogether?


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 Post subject: Re: Hand Wax / Coad
PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 8:05 am 
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Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2005 12:00 pm
Posts: 313
Panhandle sells a golden hand wax that they make themselves. I can tell that occasionally they change ingredient ratios because sometimes it's better than other times. The last batch I got from them had too much rosin. I haven't tried it, but I bet it would be perfect if you melted it down and added just a bit of beeswax.

Lisa


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 Post subject: Re: Hand Wax / Coad
PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 1:56 pm 
5

Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2009 9:00 am
Posts: 225
Location: Östersund, Jämtland, Sweden
Recently I made some pitch by cocking/reducing tar. It was cocking for one hour and the result after cooling was surprisingly good. The pitch was not to brittle and mixed with rosin and beeswax it made a nice wax.
To get the best quality I used a light colored tar. The lighter color of the tar the better quality.


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 Post subject: Re: Hand Wax / Coad
PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 2:00 am 
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Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2011 9:00 am
Posts: 55
Location: New Zealand
Jan, thank you for this explanation. Please say what kind of tar: stockholm tar, bitumen, something else?

You say on cooling it was not brittle. What was it like then, butter, chocolate, soft toffee ... so as to know when cooking is completed.

Light coloured tar? Where to you get this from?

I have reduced stockholm tar until brittle on cooling then made wax with it, and rosin and tallow. This was satisfactory. Using bitumen (some types of optical lens grinders, or road menders tar) with resin and tallow had an unpleasant feel to it and I didn't go on with using it, though it may have been ok for it's purpose.


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 Post subject: Re: Hand Wax / Coad
PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 4:05 am 
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Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2009 9:00 am
Posts: 225
Location: Östersund, Jämtland, Sweden
David,
the tar I used was;

SUPERIOR QUAL PILE BURNED TAR, 1 LITRE
Genuine peasant made pine stump tar, yellowish to brown-yellowish.

Which is the finest quality. Only pine tar should be used no oil tar. You find it at http://www.claessons.com/english/produkter_list.asp?do=list&category=&sokord=

Stockholm tar used to be the same quality but I don't know about that today.

The pitch was not soft it was more like solid. I could not brake it by hand

(Message edited by janne melkersson on March 12, 2013)


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 Post subject: Re: Hand Wax / Coad
PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 7:55 am 
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Joined: Wed Mar 31, 2004 6:42 am
Posts: 548
David:

While not Janne, I have done the same, using the Auson's Kiln Burned Pined Tar (available in the USA from Noxudol direct from them or from Amazon.com). The hand wax I have made is pretty darned good from my point of view.

'Cooking' the pine tar drives off the turpentine. I don't think there is a point when the pitch is 'done'; the pitch will simply get thicker and thicker/harder as more of the turps is boiled off. I have been told that boiling the pine tar at too high a temperature (above 325 degrees) will cause the residual solids to oxidize/burn, leaving 'clinker'/ash in the pitch. I cooked my pine tar in a small electic skillet (outdoors!) at a reasonable boil, but don't know what temperature it was. IIRC, I probably boiled the stuff for an hour. Be careful not to get it to too high a temp, for you could get spontaneous combustion. Probably smart to have a fire extinguisher handy, and to make sure where you are cooking it is a fair distance from any structure in case it ignites. The stuff smells VERY smoky, so whatever you're wearing will definitely smell strongly of smoke. I think the consistency I achieved was probably like hard toffee. Real pitch is the slowest flowing liquid in the world (apparently it is considered a liquid due to its physical characteristics), feeling pretty hard at room temperatures, so I was shooting for a similar consistency. When hot, the stuff is still pretty thin, so you need to take a little sample and let it cool to check its consistency.

I wonder where the Claesson's product comes from? Al Suguto has suggested that there is no remaining Scandanavian production of pine tar in commercial quantities, and that it all comes from China. If so, Claesson may well source theirs from the same place as Auson. Would be interesting to know.

I've also found this company in Finland:
http://www.hautaterva.net/

They do appear to make their pine tar in Finland, as they state their pine stumps come from government managed land. I never got a reply to an inquiry I placed a couple of years ago; perhaps someone else can have better luck.

Lance


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 Post subject: Re: Hand Wax / Coad
PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 10:15 am 
1

Joined: Fri Dec 28, 2007 10:00 am
Posts: 13
Location: Fort Wayne, Indiana, USA
Here is a link to a US source for "light" pine tar:

http://www.solventfreepaint.com/pine-tar.htm

Bill


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