Nat,

Of course thread rotting is important to me as a shoemaker,but that never happened to me so far,Resin/sap thread covered with bees wax i made come back for resoling after 10 to 18 not because of the thread giving in but the soles wear out and a hole appear in the middle,i do have faith in the thread i am making to last the length of the the shoe,20 years or more.Anything longer than this,i will be out of business making a living as a shoemaker.

Nasser

Nat,
you got it right. But as you can see there are many ways of doing this and all of them works.
I think D.A. Sagutos suggestion of mixing pine tar with resin seems to be a good way of doing it and I will for sure give it a try.
Janne

Lisa,

no need to put any hands under water. When I cook it I put the melted wax into these aluminum cans you have for cookies. Then you end up with nice sized piecec of wax and no burning hands.

Janne

Here's what John Rees says on wax in 1813:

Wax

Wax should be made of the best black pitch, and a fourth part of rosin, and a little fine oil if you should find it hard, which you will in winter; but put no fat nor grease, for neither will incorporate with the pitch so well as the oil: for wax that is made with fat or grease, will not properly adhere to the thread or work.

The pitch should be melted in an earthen or an iron pot, on a slow fire, that it may not burn. When thoroughly melted, take it off the fire and pour into it as much oil as the season requires, and let the whole be well stirred; then pour it into a pan or tub of cold water, and press it close together in the water, that it may be as free as possible from air bladders, and let it be taken out of the water while warm; and then draw it between the hands to that the degree that it may support itself in small filaments or threads without breaking. Unless it be brought to that ductile state, it will be too brittle to be of any service, it will fly off the thread in the working, and that which remains will soon wear off. Therefore, unless the wax be of that ductile property, capable of adhering to the thread, the work cannot be firm.—

Give John D. Devlin 1839 & 40 a read on wax-making.

Genuine hemp fibers will not rot (easily), which was why hemp was used for making canvas (sails) and ships' ropes. Pine-tar pitch has antimicrobial qualities which enhance this, also used to coat ships' ropes.

IMO, as so with the historical writers, the wax must be taffy-pulled while still hot out of the water bucket. This tests the ductility of the mixture as Rees says, bleaches the color of the pitch out to the bronze color "beloved of shoemakers", better incorporates the ingredients, and physically changes the texture of the finished product.

I believe it's in Devlin, but maybe Hasluck? Anyway, the ingredients are described as: the rosin is the "sticky" stuff that makes the thread very frictious (like rosin on a violin bow) so each stitch locks and binds into the leather. The pitch is the binder that adheres the rosin to the thread so it won't flake off. The tiny dab of oil/beeswax is the softening agent to keep the wax from being too brittle in cold weather.

Here's more from:
Standage, H.C. The Leather Worker's Manual. 3rd Ed. London: Scott, Greenwood & Son, 1920. (1st ed. 1899)

(p.51)
Shoemaker's waxes:
Ingredients: 40 lb. Rosin
4 lb. Heavy Rosin Oil
4 lb. Heavy Coal-Tar Oil (free from creosote)
2 lb. Chrome Yellow
2 lb. Chalk
Put the Rosin in a suitable boiler and heat it until it melts, then add the rosin oil and coal tar oil, and heat up the mixture until it boils, and continue the boiling until a sample, when taken from the boiler, can be kneaded and drawn out into threads between the fingers; then allow the mixture to cool, and while in a fluid state stir in the chrome yellow and chalk, both in dry powdered state; Mix thoroughly by stirring, and when homogenous allow to cool until plastic enough to be molded into suitable sized pieces of "cobblers wax".

Another formula is to melt together tallow and Swedish pitch, and when plastic form in to balls; the quantity of tallow is best determined by experiment.

(p.56)
Waxes for Sewing Soles, etc.:
Ingredients: 10 oz. Pitch
10 oz. Rosin
1 oz. Tallow
Melt together and when cool enough pull it until it assumes a pale brown color; this pulling effects a partial bleaching of the wax, whereby the black color of the pitch is decreased.

(p.57)
Wax for Sewing Machines:
Ingredients: 4 lb. Rosin 1 lb. Pitch
1/4 lb. Beeswax
3 oz. Tallow (refined)
3 oz. Sperm Oil

White Wax for waxing hemp sewing threads, etc:
Mix together by heating equal weights of
Virgin Wax
Rosin
Flake white dry powder.
Melt the wax and rosin together first, and then stir in the white pigment.

D.A.
what an outporing, thank you so much for your time. I have some left of the good Swedish pitch and I will follow Mr Rees advice and give it a go all the way. I will keep you informed.

Janne

Gave wax making a try last night. Really basic: Rosin/beeswax 50:50.

Tried coating some threads and it seems like too much wax, but I'll see later since it was still warm. I also had some concerns about touching hot wax, but found that it was not a problem. A few minutes in the water bucket and it was plenty cool, but still warm enough for taffy pulling. The kids got a kick out of watching me walk around the house yanking wax back and forth!

Thanks all for the help and good info. When I started out I never expected to be studying wax recipes and learning how tar and pitch are made, but there's always something new to learn.

Nasser,
I just realized that my question yesterday may have came across negative to you. Apologies if that happened as I didn't intend it that way.

Regards,
-Nat

Friends,

I thought I might give my tiny imput to this discussion, if I might.

I use "Rodeo Bull Rosin", bees wax, and pure needsfoot oil. I really can not equate it into a formula but it is roughly %50 rosin, %40 bees wax and %10 pure needsfoot oil. My goal is to come up with a wax that is sticky/tacky and yet will hold its shape. I use it to make the stitching thread sticky enough to hold tight and not come loose during the stitching process and hopefully for the full life of the boot or shoe.

My application is also a bit different. I lather up about 1 foot of using thread at a time and when I get close to using up that foot of thread, I take the ball of wax and rub it up and down the thread untill it is coated.

I usually melt the rosin and the wax/oil seperatly and mix together when they are both hot and liquid. I stir them and after they are well mixed, I pour the hot mix out onto a teflon cooky sheet to cool until I can handle it like taffey. I oil the sheet and my hands with needsfoot oil and pull up about what I want to make the ball. Then the "taffy pull" and when I'm tired or it is totally pulled it goes into the freezer. The wax balls hold their shape pretty well after cooling and then I keep them on a bees wax block for convience. I use the wax for sewing the welt and for hand sewing the sole.

I hope this might add a bit of useful information for someone.

Best wishes, Larry Peterson

Nat,

Honestly no offense was taken and no need for an apology,it happens sometimes when the written words do not fully convey the feelings,That said,lets talk about wax,I was thinking of cooking some pine resin and bees wax with some oil for reasons Al mentioned,but i was thinking of maybe starting with %10 or %20 bees wax and see how that works,my present wax in use is pine resin/sap with few drops of oil,very sticky,that i rub on my strands and twist and leather rub to remove and distribute the resin evenly by the heat caused by the friction of the leather with thread,it is at this stage that i apply three rubbings with sticky resin and enough bees wax to cover the sticky resin and to make the thread non sticky on top for easy sewing/stitching.

Nasser

Nasser,

Thanks for reminding me of this, using the pine resin and then following up with beeswax. That's the way that I originally learned. It makes for tight stitches, especially for inseaming.

Jon,

Happy to be a reminder of good tidings: I know you and i and Philip and Fred Longtin went to the same shoemaking school.

Nasser

Ok, Wow the Real Stuff came in the mail today.
Now I will give this a try.

Is it correct that I should boil this down a bit (outdoors)_ to make it thicker or do I just melt it with the rosin and then add the bees wax.

It smell like Oakum. Strong.

Geri

Looks like chocolate, but probably only squirrels would like this drizzled on their ice cream!

Strong smell good, or bad?
(I'm guessing strong smell bad).

Thanks for sharing Geraldine... I'm following this one closely.

-Nat

Geri,

I'd try first just mixing it with rosin, avoid beeswax initially. Boiling it down to a more solid consistency is an unbelievably messy smelly and smoky process. I wouldn't do it within 50' of any fixed structure you care about. I certainly wouldn't do it in an urban area again.

Some hints: this stuff will effectively destroy whatever container you put it in so use disposables.

Have a good supply of rags ready to wipe up with. If you're anything like me you'll end up with brown smears all over the place. Turpentine is essential for the final cleanup.

Have a double-lined but open bin ready to hand to ditch the messy things in.

Measure and track your quantities carefully so you can replicate the mix when you get it right.

My only real warning is this: if you melt rosin and tar together and pour them into a bucket of water, and it floats, do not, I repeat, do not stick your hands in it!

You won't hurt yourself, but I discovered experimentally that if it floats it's got too much tar in it to ever go solid and you'll end up with tar-covered hands. It took about a gallon of turpentine to get my hands clean after that little adventure, and let's not talk about any of the stuff I had to touch on my way to getting the turps!

Everybody,

Thanks for the advice. I will measure and weigh everything because I am not sure what is best.

Any advice after all of this as to a starting proportion of resin to tar?

I said this Pine tar smells. Not really bad but really strong. Not the smell that I would want on my shoes. I guess it smells like "TAR". I am concerned that the tar will stain the leather. Is that a concern?

I will be cooking it down in a farm field hundreds of feet from any structure and not in my back yard this time. I am glad that was mentioed again. My house is white.

Thanks for the turpentine tip. My son has been using flour that he assures me is what he always uses after climbing pine trees and getting his hands coated with sap.

He was playing with the last batch. He softened with it with his hands and began cracking it like taffy and left some on a plate as a special gift that he placed it in the sink for the unsuspecting Maid.

That was not a welcomed surprise after it soaked in hot soapy water. Turpentine would have been good to know about then.

Geri

I cooked some of "The Real Stuff" last year and here is my method. I used a Teflon coated electric frying pan and poured in the pine tar. I turned the heat to the highest level and used a silicone spatula to stir. There is a lot of smoke involved and so plan on tossing the clothes you wear. If you can make something to funnel the smoke upwards and away from you that would help. I cooked it for two hours and got the consistency I wanted. The smell actually diminishes after awhile. I would pour it out into some kind of silicone bake ware because it will stick to anything else and this will give you manageable size pieces. Whatever you use will be worthless for any other purpose but I plan on reusing the things anyway. Bill

William,

Thanks for the tip on using the electric fry pan. I had no idea that it would take as long as 2 hours. I was planning on using sterno. I will use an old electric fry pan and make a chimney to funnel the smoke up and away.

I opened the can once in my house and every time I walk by it I get a whiff of it. I just figured out what it smells like. It does not smell like Tar. It smells like the mulch that you use in the garden.

Geri

Happy Mothers Day everyone.

I had a great day today had another attempt at making hand wax.

I heated up "The Real Stuff, Pine Tar" for about an hour and a half out away from homes with a medium fire started with a sterno and then kept slightly higher with added twigs. At one point it caught on fire and I needed to cover it to extinguish the flames and lower the heat.A lot of smoke burned off.

I melted together:

1 1/2 cups of pine tar
9 ounces of bull fighters rosin
3 ounces of bees wax

The wax is just a tab bit stickier than I want it to be and it is 60 degrees outside. It is not brittle and quite solid.

Any suggestions?
\

(Message edited by gshoes on May 08, 2011)

(Message edited by gshoes on May 08, 2011)

Hey Geraldine,
They look great. If they didn't work out as wax balls you could roll them in coconut and sell them as Rum Truffles
Tom.

After re-watching DW's video on waxing the ends I can see that my wax is not TOO sticky after all. I handles about the same way as his. I have been practicing attaching the boars bristles and it is handling and sticking quite well. Not flaking off like the last batch. I was not expecting it to stick to my fingers at all while handling and I see that it is ok for that to happen. Thanks for everyone's help.

Geri

I was fortunate enough to get some pitch while I was in W'burg a few months ago (my sincere thanks to the excellent folks at the shoemaker's shop!!), and a friend and I just cooked up a batch of coad last Saturday. We used D.A.'s recipe: 2:1:0.33 of pitch:rosin:beeswax (actual measurements 30g, 60g, 10g). It melted to a homogeneous black liquid in the pot, and we poured it into the water bath. After massaging it and cooling it in the water bath, I mushed it around and split it into two and my friend and I both taffy pulled our own pieces a bit until it cooled enough to make that difficult. Perhaps we didn't taffy-pull vigorously enough, but it is still a very dark, dark brown. With a good amount of effort, at room temperature, I can move it around, but it seems to hold its shape very well.

During use: It is very tacky, but does not leave residue when handled lightly. After some use in a warm room, it is a bit more malleable, but you still have to work it to get it to fold on itself. When being waxed, the linen takes on a very nice amber color, but the wax itself is very "grabby" and I need to run the strands through the coad a couple of times to get there (noticing that where the strands were rubbing, it is shiny, as if there was some localized melting). After making 3 double-waxed ends, there are bits of coad stuck to my fingers, and I needed to use nail-polish remover to get them off.

I suppose I'm really curious to know if this type of stickiness is normal. Would re-heating it and taffy-pulling it some more help at all? Or perhaps adding more wax to make it more "waxy" rather than sticky? I seem to be making waxed ends that are acceptable, but the stickiness of my fingers ends up pulling linen bits off of the threads, which then forms small sticky lumps on the bristle which are very hard to get off. Any thoughts? Maybe I'm just too used to the synthetic stuff that I've been using all this time =)


Francis

Francis:

It sounds to me that you have achieved a very nice hand wax -- remember, the purposes of the wax are (I believe): to provide antiseptic properties to the linen thread to keep it from rotting; to 'lock' the stitches/thread together in the stitch holes to increase the security of the seam and to provide a lock even if the thread is worn through; to increase the strength of the thread by holding all the individual strands together; and of course to help make the bristled end by locking the tapered thread to the bristle. You want a sticky wax to accomplish these tasks.

You should have to run the wax back and forth a bit on the wax to generate enough friction/heat to soften it a bit and make it stick to the thread; if the wax is sticking to the thread without even a bit of heat, the wax may be too soft.

As I think Al once wrote, you would like a wax that, if you pause while sewing a stitch before completing that stitch, the wax locks up, and you really need to give a good yank to get the thread moving again. I once made a wax that, when I paused, locked so hard that I snapped my thread when trying to get the thread going again; -- that is too much, obviously, but the general direction is correct.

A couple of things: before waxing the thread, and before twisting the plies together, some makers use an awl and wrap the tethered thread one time around the awl blade, then run the blade up/down the multi-ply thread -- this helps to get rid of the 'fluff' on the thread, which fluff can get messy and cause problems when waxing the thread, which is the problem I think you're experiencing. Also, after applying the wax, use a small piece of leather and vigorously 'burnish' the thread/wax. This process will help melt the wax into the thread and leave a smoother thread. Even with the leather between your fingers and the thread, you'll feel how hot the thread can get from this friction. Finally, when waxing the tapered end, you need to be careful with a very sticky wax to have it nice and soft before applying the wax to the taper, otherwise it can grab and snap the taper.

I think it's a balancing act between wax that is too hard/brittle, and thus flakes off the thread, and one that is too soft, which won't really give you a good 'lock' when attaching the bristle and in the stitch itself.

Lance

Sorry for failure to catch this: I wrote


"You should have to run the wax back and forth a bit on the wax to generate enough friction/heat to soften it a bit and make it stick to the thread; if the wax is sticking to the thread without even a bit of heat, the wax may be too soft."


I meant:

You should have to run the wax back and forth a bit on the THREAD to generate enough friction/heat to soften THE WAX and make it stick to the thread; if the wax is sticking to the thread without even a bit of heat, the wax may be too soft.

Lance