Toe boxes

[lancepryor]

Nick:

#2 for most shoes -- plain toes & cap toes. I believe the curve at the top of the stiffener should be either a 10" or 12" radius circle -- i.e. a very gentle curve, much less than shown above.

Wing tips use a different shape.

However, I don't know why you need to get a die made. These should be easy to cut out with a sharp knife, particularly for shoes which use a lighter toe puff than do boots. For the current pair I'm making, I'm am using a pretty thin veg tan. When used with paste between the puff and the lining, and press cement on the top of the puff, the toe box is plenty stiff. Moreover, different size feet will use a different size puff, so 1 die to serve all shoes will be definition be larger than necessary for many feet, leading to wasted leather. Just my 2 cents worth.

Lance

[janne_melkersson]

I am mostly using a style that is pretty close to #1. I have better result with it then the #2. Not that I understand why but somehow the curve make it easier to make the edge invisible.
Yea, different shapes of toe puffs will be needed for different styles of shoes, as mentioned by Lance the wingtip but also lakes/aprons need a different shape.

[paul]

Jan,

I have an idea what aprons are, but am not familiar with the term "lakes".
Could you please explain?

Terry, I wish we had gotten to spend more time on this when you were here.
I'm not so sure that multiple layers as you're suggesting would do anything besides just make more steps skiveing and glueing.
Those cabinet maker rasps really do a pretty good job of removeing material.
But I hope you can get some other feedback.

Paul

[lancepryor]

Paul:

I believe the lake is the British term for apron.


Janne:

What shape puff do you use for a lake/apron?

Thanks,

Lance

[janne_melkersson]

Paul,
as lance said lake is the Brittish term for apron.

Lance,
on thinner upper leather I use the #1 pattern and then I prelast the vamp over the still damp toe puff so the seam from the lake will make an imprint on the surface of the toe puff. Then I take away the toe puff and cut it about an 1/4" on the innerside of the mark from the inner seam of the lake and then I skive it with a long thin skive. It is a bit extra work to get it back at the right place but it use to be nice. Hope this make sence with my Swenglish.

That said, the toe puff will have the same lenght on the sides as usuall but will not go all the way across the lake.

It would be interesting to hear how other do this.

[athan_chilton]

This seems like a stupid question, esp. as I have been making toe boxes & heel counters out of leather for at least a year...but what would the shoemakers here recommend as best weight for women's oxfords' heel & toe counters? I grabbed what I thought I'd been using all along, not sure what weight it is but it's probably a couple of mm thick...and discovered despite my skiving it was still too thick, and was not fun to last on a relatively narrow toed women's last. Is it a lighter weight I want, or a softer temper? All recommendations welcome!

[bootmkr]

To All,

Did I read something about a toe box material like celastic that you heat activate, any one out remember this, if so what was it and where to find it.

[romango]

Georgene has celastic at www.shoedo.com

[1947redhed]

It's not Celastic. It's heat activated thermo plastic toe box stuff. I can get a chemical activated product but the heat activated is so much neater and less toxic to use.
Georgene

[bootmkr]

Georgene, that thermo plastic stuff, whats it called, and how thick is it?


Lonnie

[1947redhed]

Lonnie,
The themo plastic toe box does not have a brand name. It is approximately .6mm thick according to my digital calipers. Over the years, different sheets I've sold have been .5 or .7mm. depending on availability.

Georgene

[courtney]

My question is on counters, this category seemed the closest, so here it is.

When I've made counters before I used Tim's book and had the counter reach halfway to the lasting margin, this is always hard for me to keep track of where it is and always ends up too low in some spots and too high in others.

Am I doing it wrong, or do others bring it to the bottom of the lasting allowance? I know in HMSFM it goes all the way.

If I was to do that where should i start my skive? I think Tim says 3/4" lasting allowance and 3/4" skive on bottom of counter, so should I assume it starts at the feather edge?

Courtney

[artzend]

Courtney,

What happens under the insole is not as important as what happens above when it comes to counters. If you want to add the extra 5mm and have the bottom of the counter line up with the lasting edge that is ok. I just like to not have too many edges lining up.

What is important is the top edge. It should be just below the topline in a shoe and can be as long as down to the joint, but in a boot, the top of the counter should not be as high or it will cut into the heel.

Tim

[courtney]

Thanks Tim,

So if I followed your directions in the book and put the counter half way between the lasting allowance with a 3/4" skive that would work out to have a skived area about 3/8" above the feather.

So, can I assume that I should make the skive start 3/8" above the feather down to whatever I want for the lasting margin?

Courtney

[artzend]

Courtney

The skive at the bottom is to reduce bulk and also to make it easier to fold the stiffener under the last. You can't make it too thin or you will reduce it's strength and it may break in wear.

Tim

[courtney]

Tim,

So should I start the skive exactly at the feather where it turns under?

Thanks,
Courtney

[courtney]

I didnt really get the answer to this, so I'm going with 3/8" above the feather line. Unless somebody says different.

Courtney

[artzend]

Courtney

I would think that should be ok. I think it's around 5mm, sorry I didn't see the other post.

Tim

[courtney]

Thanks!

Courtney

[idris_nowell]

I have a question for those with more experience than me. It might not belong here but I couldn't find a better category for it, if there is a better place for it could someone please move it?

I'm making a pair of knee length boots for my other half. They're an oxford design with elastic loops and buttons in place of laces. My question is, do I need to add a heel stiffener to these boots? I ask because there are three layers of leather at the heel already; 3.5oz veg tan lining, 3.5oz chrome upper (soft) and a 3.5oz backstrap (also soft).

She doesn't need much in the way of ankle support and I don't think there could be much anyway with the elastic laces but I'm concerned that lasting would be very difficult if I add another 4oz of heel stiffener into the mix.

Also, with an elastic fastened boot, how does one fix the facings (or sides if it's a chelsea) to allow for lasting without destroying the elastic and distorting the upper?

Thanks

Idris

[romango]

I would say yes. The heel receives a lot of stress from the heel of the foot in motion and may begin to push out over the feather line if not held rigidly.

[artzend]

Idris

I agree with Rick, you definitely need a stiffener or she will walk the side of the boot over in a relatively short time.

With an elastic side boot you can last without distortion of the elastic as that section is mostly above the area that gets stretched.

If you want to be sure, then cut out only a section of lining at the bottom of the elastic when trimming the lining and leave a solid area above that. Trim the rest of the lining as normal. After lasting, trim out the piece you have left in. That would require only two straight cuts with scissors.

Tim
www.shoemakingbook.com

[simon_brusa]

hello to all,
I have a question about the choice of leather reinforcements (toe, back, side).
I'm making a mountain boot, which thickness should I use to make reinforcements quite hardy and durable?
2mm is good?
the type of leather to use is the shoulders right?
thanks for your attention!

[lancepryor]

Simone:

I've never made hiking boots, but I would think for the heel counter you would want thicker leather, more like 3mm or even 4mm. For the toe box, 2mm seems good. For the side linings, I think you probably want to use either upper leather or lining leather (the latter if you want it to be able to breathe well) -- say something in the 1mm to 2mm range. The side lining leather should be softer and more pliable than the toe or counter leather.

I hope others with more experience will weigh in.

Lance

[farmerfalconer]

Quick Question...

I was in Ecuador 2 years or so ago when I was 14 and I had a pair of derbys made. (There is a shomaker on about everycorner down there) They let me watch the entire process and even though I speak very limited spanish I learned a lot. Later the maker was kind enough to take me to all the finders there and walk me through all the tools i needed including a pair of lasts.

Anyhow, my question is:
what is the product that can be used for toe boxes that is stiff but then you dip it in gasoline it becomes floppy and lastable and when it drys 5 minutes later it is rock hard? They had it in Ecuador and it was maybe 1mm thick and a light blue but I didnt know enough spanish to figure out what it was but I was wondering if anyone here knew of a similar substance and where I could get it.

Thanks!

Cody