Andre,

Ouuu man, sounds like you were in on the absolute "worst" end of the business there--fashion footwear. At least the big company I worked for as a consultant made very decent shoes and boots I would, and still wear a pair of on occasion. My "take-away" from that involvement was: custom lasts suck for interfacing with mass-production, while better generic factory lasts can often be salvaged and customized into something even better, both for mass-production as per principles of custom shoemaking.

One of my lastmaking mentors told me point blank, "there're only two approaches to lastmaking, custom, based on a foot before you to actually fit according to nature, or stylized to be at best a well tolerated container shape worn by a million generic feet "X" long and "Y" wide." No wonder each approach results in totally different lasts for the most part. And no wonder the custom shoe business (and orthopedic!) has a steady stream of customers too, refugees from generic footwear.

When I was a lecturer for a university's fashion design and marketing class on shoemaking, the biggest hurdle I faced was convincing the students (and dept. heads), designing shoes on paper is not enough. These students needed to actually start by understanding feet, lasts, materials, make shoes, wear them and feel the results of what they hoped to inflict on the shoe-buying public. I got only meager interest, and less funding to pursue that expanded course *sigh*.

DWFII, marletta sorry for the delay, Thanks for the welcome and response.ANDRE I hope my post didn't suggest that I meant that ALL cuvus foot types were owned by athletes, I just meant that I have found when I came accross some cavus foot types that didn't have many other contributing misalingment, that they seemed to have demonstrated great function. as Al "about blurring",I could not have said it better. Lance as you desribed the way you would instrinsiclly carve the cast to create a transverse met. pad,I think you ansewred DWFII's question,I would like to add that in custom work, not all met. pads are not the same, and have found that holding the foot with one hand cupped around the heel while facing the bottom of the foot and the other hand under the toes to coex the client to dorsiflex the toes, will allow you to palpate the foot just proximal to the ball of the foot and will give you a good indication of the shape and depth of the pocket for the met. pad. Just as when you hyperextend your hang you will see the pocket in the palm of your hand, We then can determine the shape and elevation needed, this is when I think I should mention IMO where met. rises get a bad name when attempting to fit the masses. We all know that elongation and it's extention of the pad at the distal edge must follow the conture of the lateral transverse arch,(short or long second met.shaft,and not just a classic tear drop shape so to speak,with a big dome under the foot) "BLURRED" great word.IMO I think of the foot as one of the most dinamic peices of equipment our body pocesses being bound by another peice of equipment that at best stagnates the fluid ever evolving foot function,WE all need that tripod support, but the triangle is not the same shape for everyone or at the same pitch, our job is to not interfare but only protect. ps, I envy the gift of writing that a lot of you have, being able to put into words what you have on your mind is a greater gift than you may know. thanks Ray

Al and @ All,
let's be clear about, the times that you can teach youngsters in US or Germany or anywhere in the west about shoe-making is over. Done and finished, here people having ideas to become the next Calvin Klein or xyz. Shoemaking is only a pain for them, they like to listen how to become great, but somebody else should press the sole for them, that's certainly not the way how it should be, isn't it? I'm from Germany and I think some great shoes and lasts came from us, but make a guess how many people today are joining the one and only shoemaking school today? Guess - wrong it's about 10 people per year! Half like to join the technician course the other half the designing course and understandably they put them together in one class so they can ran the show for some more time. It's a petty. Leather shoes are made today in China, India (where I live) and in future in Vietnam, Cambodia or Burma. We like it or not, if the skills of guys like you, DW, Marlietta, Tim, Nasser and many more here not want to get lost, than the next or next meeting after of the Crispin Colloquy has to be in India or China! Let's forget about this crape that I'm from a crappy town in Lower-Saxony in Germany and somebody else from Tennessee, let's talk about people who like and admire your skills, who have appreciations for your works and are hungry to learn, guys whom we could give a chance in life, otherwise these are the people who could continue the bespoke shoemaking, who will make a change in future of footwear - you may like it or not. The courses in India are full, nothing is costing like 20,000 USD for the seat and what are they learning? Really not much, but I was there and talking them myself, I can tell you, you see only hungry eyes. Or let's forget about all these guys even, I've been in "lasting units" about 10sqm rooms in the 3rd floor, boys lasting 12 hrs daily by hand on peace rate and never heard of drafting. But they through the pincher around and straight on the head of the nails, I doubt that anybody of us can do it like that. If you're asking me, these are the cobblers of the 21st century and it could also about the Crispin to decide, what will happens to bespoke shoemaking.
I do not want to expose dramatics here, but I'm convinced what I'm talking about, somebody may object to it, but this is my stand on bespoke shoemaking or footwear at all. Because our guys are not interested in footwear anymore, does not mean to me, that this beautiful art has to vanish. This can't be in the interest of bespoke or any kind of footwear.
Andre

Andre,

Welcome, Glad you have joined us,Pretty bleak forecast of the bespoke B/S making and not without merit i need to add having said that,the decline in demand for bespoke started first with the inventions of machinery and mass productions of footwear that followed,At the beginning this mass production was half decent,just a grade below bespoke and was done by local makers,now days it is a done in the countries you named with lowest equalities,the first victims of those badly made footwear was the local repair people,now i am seeing more and more mold injected rubber boots in fancy colors imported,I was so offended when i recently saw a wingtip oxford shoes wholly rubber and mold injected,He was complaining about foot pain,I simply told him to change shoes, A ban on importing these fake footwear is my first move,Suddenly the middle man is making way more money than the poor makers/designers, Almost half of my buyers are refugees from generic footwear to use Al's words.

"What will happen to bespoke shoemaking"? Bespoke B/S making is a hard life,always has been and not for every one,one has to learn fast to dance on many ropes just to survive and put some food on the table,i understand your appeal to help the poor,My poor are just outside my shop here in Toronto,one of the richest cities in the world,I myself am poor, at the same time i took shoe making knowing full well that i am not going to become a millionaire but modest/honest living from making shoes in my little shop, I said i wish to be the best shoe maker i can be and that motto still stand today, the future of bespoke shoemaking, That is a hard one,i will continue as long as i can and pass it on to the keen and hope for the better.

Nasser

Well, Andre, It sounds very bleak and tough timeish there. I hear your appeal. When I was in training for last making, my first and most influencial teacher said, you don't do art to make money, you do art because you love it. You must love it and love doing it! When you do, they come to you for your creations. I think Lisa Sorrell can attest to this.

He was unique in that he had been making lasts and shoes since he was a boy. He was a very old man and perhaps he could afford to have an attitude for he lived through the time that a specialized craft could afford his living. He specialized in ladies boots and shoes. As he grew in his career, he became noticed and had a steady stream of clients. When I came to train with him, there were some weeks where I barely got any sleep for I was working trhough the night just to get his lasts ready for the morning. He had a very busy shop! Through the years he developed an attitude that has influanced me to this day. He told me" beg for clients and they will not come, make them feel deserving of you and they will beg you to make thier feet look beautiful. Then you pick and choose randomly. It makes them think they have to qualify." He turns and says with a mischivous wink and a chuckle!

But then there are those who simply want to make quality shoes for them selves and/or thier friends. To have a site like the crispen to come to for knowlege is wonderful, I belive is an understatement. Even if they do not take it to a commercial level, they can get information they need, ask questions, experiement and get good results after some practice. It can be a fun and relaxing home craft for some.

-Marlietta
Lastmakingschool.com

Nasser,
I'm not much concern about poor in general, but to help and educate people who are willing to learn, is more a lifestyle than charity. Education and training is needed in third countries, so our people can buy in future for 49.90 at least something reasonable, like you have mentioned nicely above and bespoke will be there in future also, especially in cities like Toronto, but than the shops may named Ramesh or Wang, but if nothing will happens in the third world, than from where the next generation of bespoke should come from?
Andre

Marlietta,
without a mentor at one time, it's not possible to make a decent shoemaker. The schools are in general crape, sorry I would wish it would be different. The are good schools for designing out there, but beyond that good night. Sad think.
Andre

Fellow shoe and bootmakers,

There is a concept that I am attracted to and feel should (and mostly, does) inform my life--and that is the concept of "enough".

I feel a little abashed at raising this issue or pontificating on it for the simple reason that I have been blessed. Randee and I have been blessed. And by any measure we have more, and enjoy a better living, than "enough."

But that doesn't invalidate the concept. Every fault of contemporary society--the "factory mentality," the "consumptive view"--comes back to the fact that as a people we do not know or care what is "enough." Enough is never enough for us.

On this Thanksgiving 2011, I feel especially thankful...even though we are alone this year and will go out to dinner at a local restaurant. I feel blessed. We have enough...

I am reminded of a "mantra" that has floated through my head over and over as the years have rolled by..."If you try sometime, you just might find, you get what you need."


Happy Thanksgiving to all of you, to all of us...

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

It's hard to follow those thoughts. Pretty well said.

Right now, my belly feels MORE than enough.

Wishing all a Happy Thanksgiving! God Bless!

I have no desire to turn this discussion into an argument. Nor to "school" anyone. What you do and decide to do with regard to leather is your business and of little significance to me.

That said, perhaps just from hanging around one of my most recent students--Christophe from Brussels--for three years now, I have come to respect the European ability to differ and discuss controversial issues over breakfast, lunch, dinner. Anytime. Without coming to blows or even harsh words.

Without, I might add, deleting other people's remarks simply because they disagree with one...something that has NEVER happened on this forum since the day it was created..

Didn't someone once say something about the "unexamined" life? I suspect that anyone who works with leather has had to come to grips with these issues at some point or another. If they don't, they will never be able to work with the material that informs their their career and lives, without some deep-seated reservations that will inevitably...eventually...cause them to question themselves and their commitments to the Trade.

Personally, I am of the opinion that anyone who has not killed and butchered an animal at least once in their lives--watched the light go out of the eyes, smelled the blood and the offal and plunged their hands into the body cavity to remove the bowels and other organs--not only have the absolute right, but maybe even a solemn duty, to not eat meat, much less work with leather.

If one has not intimately participated in the death and harvesting of the living creatures that will provide sustenance and shelter, claiming that one has sufficient knowledge, understanding or respect to take advantage of those lives...and deaths...rings hollow to my ears.

One is not truly part of the cycle of life when their only source of meat is wrapped in plastic and can be plucked out of the cooler section of the market with no more hassle, thought or consideration than snatching an apple off the tree.

To be in harmony with the universe...with reality...involves recognizing and accepting one's place in the universe. Human beings cannot hold themselves above all that, cannot posture as somehow better, more ethical, somehow transcendent.

It is no more ethical to use cow or calf leather because these animals have been raised for meat than it is to use alligator though it was only raised for its hide. We are still utilizing resources that are available to us only by virtue of the life...and death...of another creature.

It is not the amount or location of the resources that we use, it is the act itself. The animal itself...the life it embodies becomes the the consumable commodity. Body parts ain't in it.

To the extent that we are so disrespectful or divorced from the reality of that process; to the degree that we are content to relegate those tasks to someone else and to wash our hands of the concomitant violence, the responsibility, the gore...and even the sadness and regret...we have forfeited our right to profit from the end results.

I also suspect that it is a mistake to conflate cruelty to animals with our reliance on them for survival. The real cruelty is the indifference that comes about when we avoid thinking about and/or taking responsibility for our actions and the footprint of our lives. It is easy to see and identify that on an individual level but it is just as true societal-ly, as well.

I am near-as-nevermind certain that many (even among my peers) will disagree with me...in some cases as much, I suspect, out of discomfort and the inconvenience of it all, than out of a valid countervailing philosophy. All I can say is that I have worked with leather for over 40 years. I have come to terms with the angst and unease that afflict anyone who attempts to live mindfully. I have killed and butchered and felt that very real sadness for taking the life of another creature. I have not made excuses. I have not shied away from facing the enormity of what I do and have done.

And through it all, if anything, my respect for the sanctity of all life has been strengthened immeasurably. I cannot find it in myself to make nice distinctions about which forms of life are acceptable for slaughter and which are not. To do so is to disrespect those lives we mark for harvest...and to do that is, in my opinion, to disrespect all life.

Just my ...

YMMV

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

I hear ya!

My son shot a deer a couple of weeks ago. We were both elbow deep in the stuff. Makes you feel alive for sure, and appreciate the bounty come supper time. This is the way God created it folks. You can join in the circle of life, or choose your own way. No problem either way, IMO.

Any Ted Nugent playing in the background Dee-Dubb?

Jake,

I don't know who Ted Nugent is. I'm more of a Clancy Brothers kind of guy...or maybe Iris Dement.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

Dee-Dubb,

If you are not kidding me, it would be worth your time to google it. He's a gun-tottin', game-shootin', rock star who has his own huntin' show now. He believes in putting meat on the table!!

DW and Jake,
just for my interest, you have killed the animal for the meat or in case of a deer to preserve and balance the nature isn't it? I don't think that your intention was to kill and make nice leather out of the skin. Even if so, as long it is been done along the law, nobody should have a problem with that and so do I. I can't do it, I prefer to pay a price at the butcher shop that he has done the job for me.
The misery is not about the killing, it's the cruel treatment of animals in some countries, certainly not US or Germany, which makes more and more people angry, me too of course. These people finding the solution to the problem by trying to boycott leather products and this affects our business. Now I can't and don't want to change my customers mind, if somebody turns a vegetarian and doesn't want leather products anymore, but I feel it's my responsibility to those customers who got confused through certain publicity or other moral reasons, that we are trying our best to take care of animal "rights" and pollution issues, with the little influence we have. If it's the retailer or the bespoke customer, I don't want to loose any business and customer, because some half naked model is posing for some animal NGO in a full paged magazine and I stand there watching my business suffering. If I can and that's in the most cases, we buy our leather there, where we know the tanneries taking care of our customers interests, that these are complying with my own, is an different issue.
Regards
Andre

Dee dub and Andre'

very interesting point of view.

I grew up with my parents having two properties. One where we lived, the other a working organinc farm.

We had both vegitation organics and live stock, turkeys and chickens. My father would kill the chickens in front of the other chicken and turkey crowd. I remember seeing how aware the "live" birds were of thier emmenate death. It was tough for me to see this cruel slaughter of chicken "harvesting." My father would first slit the through of the chicken to blead it dry,electric shock it to stiffen the muscels from running away and then cut off it's head! Blood all over the ground, wide eyed turkeys trying to crowl the walls to get out. Watching the hand of a murder was very tough for me to see. the feelings of ambivalance weld up in me. On the one hand, I was hungry, on the other hand, I felt for those birds. I began to doubt my father's love for me, when was he going to kill me too??? Now as a child, you think these things but you know your parents have no intention of such thing, but being around stock animals I had my doubts.

It is not about law for me. It is not even about proper handling of the death. It about death or life of any creature!

On the other hand, as a child I also learned to tan skin. I would find racoons, rabits, crows, moles, dogs and cats dead on the road and would bring them home. peal thier skin off the dead carcase and tann it. I would puruse the roads in may neigborhood daily to find fresh kill! I used these pelts for verious sewing projects. I felt o.k. with this because,the pelt was a by product of something already decesaed. It was an accident. No one intentionally was violent to them. Killing a live creature is plain and simple violent! What does one have to do to kill? they have to trap, the creature, administer a sharp object into thier vitals, remove thier live head, or drug them to over power them to thier death. Its violent. I am not saying this as a leather objector, I am simply saying this as an observation from my own experience.

Upon the death day of a cow, his/her head is placed into a head trap, and while the animal is still very aware of what is going on a large SLOW persistant drill a 1/4 size of thier head,comes at them until it makes contact with the center of thier head and continues to drill into thier head while the cow struggles in exutiating pain. (It is the same farmer who cared for this being, fed it and then turned on it to murder it!) The purpose of this drilling process process is to bleed out the meat while the heart is still pumping it out. The cows remains alive for quiet a while till it body wilts from loss of blood, and oxigen, once the oxigen is depleted the body goes into heart failure, fribulates and stops. Poo is excremeted everywhere from the lax behind and the cow gives up what was in the stomach!

This is the legel and concidered "humane" way of killing a cow for meat! Would you like to be killed this way? Is this really humane? I don't think there really is a humane way of killing. to say one is being humane in thier killins is like saying, I love you enough to cut your head off and then proceed to do so! If the cow was "put to sleep" or drugged before death, the meat would be contaminated and not consumeable.

to take a life there is no way around it, it must be violent! Because every life has the will to live, survive and to protects it's own life. It's life! A farmer after so many kills, must become knumb to the act of killing for his own survival wether he/she adminsisters the violent act or hires someone else to do it.

So I come from a point of view of ambivalance. Watching animals slaughtered for meat for stock and usting road kill for my own vanities. Was there a difference? The road kill died scared and violent, but the driver I was sure didn't do it on purpose. some how that made it o.k. for me. They both got in each others way. For the purpse of meat, there is no other way to do it than to purposely take the life of live stock. The industry can't just wait for an accendental road kill. They must meet the demand of the consumer.

So for me to use even cows leather, makes me cringe based on the knowlege, that the cow was killed for another purpose. but also, of what if someone drilled a drill into my head? what if other humans were slaughtered in front of me? what if, what if, what if. On the other hand,like road kill, i can't stop the slaughter of cows just because I do not buy a pelt. Those cows are killed anyway. And because of this some how twisted logic of well they were dead anyway, I can sort of come to grips with using thier skin, so nothing is waisted from thier death.

The trouble is that in western cultures we tend to watch too many movies, too much TV and buy into media promulgated hearsay and myth that often has little or no bearing on reality. And if that weren't misguided enough we tend to anthropomorphize events and situations that we are nearly incapable of really understanding.

The other thing is that while we bandy about words effortlessly...such as "cruelty"...we often put a lot less energy into thinking about what that really means.

"Cruelty" has no meaning in the context of death. Death is respite, release, and repose. "Cruelty" only has significance as it applies to the living.

Perhaps even more to the point, "cruelty" is a human construct. It is a value judgment that we impose upon the universe...upon events that we don't like or understand. Such as when we rather arrogantly decide that the life of a cow is somehow worth less than the life of an alligator.

And I suspect, for a large number of "concerned" citizens, "cruelty" (as we perceive it) is more about our own mortality and our own fears than it is about the animal.

I can't speak to what any other person does or did, but chickens will not naturally come sit on your knee if you enter an enclosed space. Especially if you smell of blood. And if you try to catch one, they will all go to the wall...or the furthest reaches possible to avoid capture. Is that mortal terror or simply a survival instinct?

But chickens can be killed quickly and humanely simply by snapping their necks.

Kosher killing is done by soothing the animal and then cutting its throat.

And modern slaughterhouses use a pneumatic "gun" that fires a "captive bolt" of about .45caliber. It is not a drill and death is sudden and instantaneous.

I suspect that none of this is any more more cruel than the lioness that disembowels the wildebeest, or the wolves that hamstring the caribou and then proceed to tear it apart. Domestic cats have a toxin in their saliva that will kill a bird even if it escapes the claws. Chickens and turkeys will peck each other to death on the slightest provocation or evidence of injury...such as bare skin or a speck of blood.

As distasteful as all that may be, a quick and painless death is not cruel. A case could even be made that a quick yet painful death is not cruel.

Cruel is a painful and miserable life. Cruel is living in an environment that is so polluted with the by-products of the manufacture of materials intended to take the place of leather (as well as assuage the consciences of those who prefer a lala land fantasy of sugar plum and teddy bears to stark reality) that even a day-to-day sense of well being, much less a varied and healthy diet is impossible. Cruel is living with parasites, disease, and crippling injuries.

One final thought in passing...what is the antonym (opposite) of "cruelty?" I submit that "humane" is a good candidate. But to be humane we must put the "human" back into the equation. To the degree that we seek to divorce ourselves from the husbandry and the harvesting of animals (to relegate that dirty job to someone else or "industrialize" it) or even more to the point, from the resources their lives yield (meat and leather are indistinguishable in that respect) no one, except those directly involved in the process, can escape the charge of "cruelty."

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member



(Message edited by dw on December 06, 2011)

Animal transportation and the killing could be cruel. What you describe as kosher killing is called Dahbiha and, this is how it works...."This method of slaughtering animals consists of using a well sharpened knife to make a swift, deep incision that cuts the front of the throat, the carotid artery, wind pipe and jugular veins but leaves the spinal cord intact" It takes up to the animal's death well over an half hour for a cow and a bit lesser for a goat. Dahbiha killing is in Islam called Halal, which means permissible. I agree, humane should put himself back in equation.
Andre

Andre,You brought up halal slaughter,killing,butchering which i was allowed to do after the age of 13 for my family when they wanted chicken to eat,frozen dead chicken was out of the reach,as very young boy i also worked as a helper to a neighbor that slaughtered sheep and goats and watched him cut the throats hang to skin and cut open.
Now the word Dahbiha which means sacrifice,offering is the Arabic word "Zabiha" from the root word Zabeh,both my parents were Mesopotamian Arabic speaking,i forgot most of it living in different lands,so as the word Zabiha tells us,All killing was at first an offering, a sacrifice, humans and animals,hence the prayer one has to recite before the slaughter/killing to make it permissible by religious law.
Nasser

Nasser,
I was just reading my comment above again and I believe it is misunderstanding. So I do apologize for it. In this thread, which is certainly sensitive, I was talking about treatment of animals not about religion. DW was talking about cruelty, where I'm not agreeing with him - I should have left it with that. The Dahibah is been done respectful and with the full awareness taking of the life of an animal, that's the way how it is been done in the Arabic world. I'm respecting it and I enjoy the meat from it. As a none Muslim, I should not slaughter with the technique of the Dhabiha as you know. My preference is always a fast dead for the animal. My point in the beginning of this thread was, that we were talking about cow leather, for which purpose the animal is not been slaughtered and I don't wanted to put in any religious argument in it, but according to many discussions with my Muslim friends, Dhabiha would not be permissible for the purpose of only the skin. It's interesting, that things which are looking different or cruel to us in the western world, like the Dahbiha, having a far more deeper understanding.
Andre

(Message edited by Andre on December 07, 2011)

(Message edited by andre on December 07, 2011)

we have a saying( any fool can work for nothing). and quite often joe public never thinks -are the shoe fitting well,or are they well made, or time taken by the maker in obtaining skills.and how expensive the bespoke materials are and getting worse by the day,but judge the price by some daft idea what they think it should be.i have never in 40 years plus met a rich maker but i have met rich business persons selling on our work, and many rich customers that do not apply there work, skills pricing to there own skills as they like to play down our skills. i have loved every moment of my choosen trade but never really found man in the street understand our pricing , but london customers eg person with money from abroad do expect to pay for first class work.and why not shoe makers have to eat too.

I did not really know where to post this...

Check out this shoemaking course

http://www.hlntv.com/article/2012/03/07/chocolate-stilettos?hpt=hp_bn13

Terry

For the life of me..some things on this forum seem a little strange. Some topics,discussions and galleries and such go from old to new and some go from new to old.

I think it must be that hugh was hung upside down and crispin right side up.

Any better explanation?? LOL

Kevin

I think that is a very clever observation!

The ones that go old to new do so to preserve the flow of the discussion. Where this is not important, like the Gallery, they go new to old.

One more step along the world I go,
one more step along the world I go;
from the old things to the new
keep me traveling along with you:

And it's from the old I travel to the new;
keep me traveling along with you.

Round the corner of the world I turn,
more and more about the world I learn;
all the new things that I see
you'll be looking at along with me:

Kevin