Olaf,

Didn't you say they had two types of handwax already made up? What is the name (in German) on their website for the handwax?

I have a recipe that I got from Al Saguto...it is some part (?) rock rosin and some part(?) pitch and cod oil "to taste." Meaning till it feels right and looks right.

I've often wondered about linseed oil because, of course, the linseed oil comes from the seed of the flax...sme plant as linen thread comes from. Seems like that would be a marriage made in heaven.

I used to use Vesta Pech when they were still making it--probably the best hand wax I ever got my hands on. I still have a dozen or so blocks. They were black and the summer wax was cream coloured but they both looked like they had been poured into ice cube trays.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

DW, yes they have two "ready made" click on Produkte and then Chem. Tech.
1.Gnomen-Nähwachs ( Gnomen stitchingwax)
2. Gnomen-Pechwachs naturell schwarz dunkelnatur (Gnomen pitchwax in natural, black, natural dark)
Go to Google Translate, there you can translate the whole web page.
Some on in Switzerland told me about them and that he use the Saddler's pitch from them with poly threads and quite like it. But the Saddler's pitch is not this "ready made" Gnomen stuff I mentioned above. The Saddler's pitch and the others you will find when you click on Spezialpeche on there page.
He gave me this info:

Saddler pitch light, is pure pitch from tree resin has a hardness of 20 C°
+2, The drip point is located at 67C ° +3.
Shoemaker pitch light, is pure pitch from tree resin has a hardness of 28 C°
+2, The drip point is located at 67C ° +2.

It is a littel bit difficult because the have so many different pitches. The Vesta Pech came from east Germany and so does the Piering pitch it could be that they know each other or worked together.

Thanks Olaf

DW,

While "oil" is a documented, traditional/historical, ingredient in wax (neats foot as well as olive oil have been mentioned to me by old shoemakers), any oil runs the risk of suddenly changing (ruining) a batch of wax if a bit too much is added. And at the difficulty and prices of obtaining pine pitch these days, I'd avoid it as too risky. I have never recommended oil of any kind, but rather raw, yellow, beeswax or a tiny amount of tallow. Oils and even tallow are fugitive and leach out or "go away" in time leaving the wax you made last year or the year before too brittle.

Raw linseed oil would have the same problems as any oil. Boiled linseed would "dry" and change character in the wax. I still recommend plain old yellow beeswax "to taste".

The "Swedish" pitch Ling Fu had made for us in China is sticky as all get-out--it makes some of the most tenacious wax I've ever used. My long-standing basic receipt: 1 part rosin, 2 parts pitch, and a little beeswax "to taste", has pretty much gone by the boards, as the nature and character of the pitches have become so variable it doesn't work as well (as in the days of Rausch's and White Sea and Baltic's pitch). Current "winter" wax is more like 2 parts rosin, 3 parts pitch, almost 1 part beeswax.

Happy cooking.

I read somewhere earlier in this thread that DW used Sellari's stitching wax, mixed 4:1 with beeswax. I've got a brick of this stuff and just wondered if this is still a recommended proportion.

I assume this is 4:1 by weight.

I've never mixed my own wax before, so I'm grateful to all who have written in on the subject.

(Message edited by jon_g on September 10, 2009)

Jon,

Like most things,the proportions given are variable and only a starting point anyway. But Sellari's is meant to be heated and applied to thread without any additions so there's even a chance that in hot weather you could use it as is.

I got some of the Swedish wax that Al was on about and FWIW the coad I made with it is the only batch I've ever made that sticks to Teklon really well. It worries me...I don't know if I can duplicate that recipe again as I tend to make waxes from old bits and whatever strikes my fancy. Where I'm ever gonna get eye of newt again is anybody's guess.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

I just got a brick of Sellari's Black Stitching Wax, called Flex Wax.

5:1 was recommended to me. But I eyeballed it when I broke off some pieces, added what I thought was about 20% of beeswax, and melted it in a soup can, held by my pliers, with my hotair gun. Then poured it into a pot of cold water and played with it like taffy pulling, just as it's been recommended by many here. I did end up adding a bit more beeswax, when it flaked off the first string some. But it was probably the "eyeballing" that was off. So maybe 4:1 is good for next time for me.

Anyway, it worked real well, and smelled great! And it cleaned up real easily with Sellari's Wax Thinner on a terry rag.

Enjoy.
Paul

Hi all,

I've been playing around with stockholm tar and making a bit of progress.

The biggest thing that's stumping me is not knowing what it looks like when it's 'right'. I've read this topic end to end several times but until I make it over to an AGM that's as close as I'm going to get I think.

What I've done is pour some vetrinary-grade stockholm tar into a pot and boil it on a hot plate until the smoke went brown to get a soft pitch. I did this wearing a respirator, in the doorway of my garage with a fire extinguisher nearby and a decent fan (now ruined) to pull the fumes out.

I've mixed that up with chunk rosin from a paint supplier down south and a touch of tallow and gotten something that's solid, black and sticky as anything but it's still not quite right.

The first run came out at what I thought was about the right hardness. I could dig a fingernail into it but hit it hard and it would shatter. It wasn't usable though. Handling it the surface would chip off and bits would stick to my hands and it didn't penetrate even dry spun thread terribly well.

I split that batch in two and softened one with a touch of tallow and the other with a little more tar. One was still to hard and the other much too soft so I melted them together - still too soft.

Tonight I chucked the lump back in the pot with a tiny bit more rosin and boiled it until it smoked some more then tipped it into water. That was almost very bad because it boiled the water on contact. I should have let it cool first.

Now I have something that is just soft enough that I can put a thumbprint in it and is slowly going from a round ball to a flat blob as it sits on a jar lid.

I still can't get it to penetrate thread well though. I waxed up three strands of Acadia #10 with it, rolled the cord up, burnished it and once I'd cleaned the lumps of black sticky gunge of my fingers, I cut it on an angle and it clearly still has a core of threads the wax didn't penetrate.

Does this sound like it is too hard, to soft, or just totally wrong?

Thanks.

Alasdair,

Laddie you're surely having the "Dark Night of the Soul" with making wax! Been there, have the tee-shirt.

Since the basic ingredients/suppliers have mostly closed, every batch is a "new" science experiment. Like any good science experiment you must maintain control over all the factors and record how much of this, per how many parts of that, until you get a wax mix that works, then write it down and proceed in quantity to make a lot. You tinkered with your mix a wee bit too much I think, tossing the too hard stuff into the too soft stuff, and lost control of the mixture.

Everything affects the wax: the melting-time and heat, the pitch, the rosin, and the softener (I urge you to use beeswax instead of tallow, as tallow can wreck a batch of wax irreparably and fast). After a good melting together (bubbling) on the verge of a boil, but not quite, good stirring to mix, dip-up a ladle full and pour that into your room temperature water bucket; press the air out and carefully manipulate it into a pancake UNDERWATER just until you can lift it out and work it in your hands without the molten core melting through and burning you (maybe 30 seconds to 1 minute). Work briskly. Start taffy-pulling it to bleach the pitch out and better mix it, rolling it up into a "log", and pulling some more (a couple of more minutes--still kinda warm/soft). It should at this point be a nice rich bronze color, or at least have bronzy-colored streaks/highlights. Jet black means too much oil/fat (this does not happen if you use beeswax or oil BTW). While taffy-pulling it should support itself in a fairly long strand, and not snap off short. After pulling, too, it goes hyper-sticky, that's when to stop, roll it into a ball or two, and drop the balls back into the water bucket to cool. Of it behaved badly adjust the mixture still melted in the pot. Once the balls have cooled completely in the bucket (an hour or so), test it waxing the thread. If it flakes off, or makes dust around each stitch-hole, it's too hard still. If it sticks to you and everything it touches, it's too soft. Further fine-tuning can be done one ball at a time safely in the ladle over a candle (no fans or safety precautions)--more flakes beeswax to soften, or more crumbs of rosin and pitch to harden--taffy-pull, test, and repeat until "right". You can note, now, whether this whole batch tends to be soft or hard, and either re-melt the whole thing, or just tweak each ball as needed-used over the candle.

If any of your ingredients/suppliers change, you'll be back to square one. If a consistent supply is possible, just note the ratios for next time so you won't have to go through as much trouble.

The balls of wax should stay as round blobs and not sag into puddles or stick to your workbench if set down for a few minutes. I keep mine wrapped individually paper to store it, or sitting in a small earthen dish on the bench in use. In hot summer time you can put a little water in the dish so the wax won't stick in there.

Happy cooking!

Al, thank you for this explanation. It really helps. I'm lucky in that I have a fairly consistent supply of rosin and beeswax and I've had good success with a straight 2:1 wax/rosin mix, but it ain't black

You're right, I abandoned the scientific method on my last ball.

I think part of my problem other than that is that I've been working in small quantities at a time rather than working on a big batch and testing/tuning that.

Knowing that jet black is wrong, and that uber sticky is too soft is key information I was missing. I've just had go starting with stockholm tar and crushed rosin. So far a 5:1 mix of rosin/tar is looking like a good start. I've got a ball cooling now and will test it in a little bit.

Am I right in thinking the two factors to control are viscosity and adhesion, and that if the viscosity is right but it is too sticky it won't penetrate the thread? Is spirit turpentine useful for anything other than cleanup?

Alasdair,

Wax-making is a bit of alchemy and good luck. You sound like you're on the right track, but as I've never worked with your rosin, pitch, beeswax myself, ratios and proportions are a "?". Yes, "black" is indicative of too much pitch/tallow/oil, or not enough bleaching effect from taffy-pulling--color should be medium brownish with copper or bronze tendency. On the thread it should look like amber varnish, if that's a known color to you.

The pitch is the binder and adhesive that sticks the rosin to the thread, i.e. the stickiness. The beeswax is the softening agent for various climates. I've never heard of adding turps to wax. One, it's flammable, and two it's a drying agent--it'll dry/change overnight into a skin or gummy substance after the volatile parts evaporate, so not a good candidate for wax IMO.

My latest wax (Chinese "Swedish" pitch and "Stockholm" tar, etc.) have reversed my age-old base ratio from 2 part pitch to 1 part rosin (based on the now defunct Rausch Naval Stores pitch and rosin), to 2 parts rosin to 1 part pitch, the pitch is that soft now. Nothing is written in stone as long as the result "works" right.

Not sure what you're getting at by "penetration". The wax doesn't really soak into the thread like a liquid, it merely coats it. If you "skein-up" you hand-sewing threads from individual strands of #10 hemp (as you should not be using pre-twisted stuff), you should wax the thread before you twist it, so there's wax inside the twisted cordage. Then wax the outsides. I hook my thread in the middle on a hook on the wall, and holding both "taws" (tips where the bristles will go) taut in my left hand, I briskly rub the twisted thread down hard with a folded scrap if leather pinched over it to burnish the surface smooth. This action, through heat and friction, also melts the wax deeper into the thread. Try it, it might give you the "penetration" you're seeking.

Thanks Al.

I'm getting there. Now that I know I'm aiming for bronze rather than black I've made some decent progress. 5:1 rosin/tar was too soft. 7:1 is slightly too hard so now I get to play the fun game of tempering it. It is much easier in big batches but boy is it a fine line to get it right. I've found the too hard and the too soft, but not the 'just right' quite yet. I feel a bit like goldilocks and the three cordwainers.

When you measure do you do it by weight or volume? I'm doing it by volume but crushing the rosin quite finely first.

I am skeining up threads as you say, waxing three strands together then plying, waxing again and burnishing. The penetration thing may just be a case of my expectations failing to match reality. What I've been getting with the wax/rosin mixtures is a thread that if I pick it apart doesn't have any furry bits of uncoated linen in the middle after being burnished, it melts right the way through. With this stuff each strand is coated, but not filled, with the wax.

I'm looking forward to getting this working, quite aside from being a bit more accurate than what I've been using it seems a lot stickier.

Al,

I want to commend you for this series of posts regarding hand wax. It has turned on some light bulbs in my head and perhaps in some other folks too. Lots of information there that I was missing or guessing at, albeit successfully...mostly.

Very nice. If I didn't have a (somewhat) lifetime supply of Vesta Pech stashed away, I'd be out in the shop today melting rosin.


Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

Alasdair,

Just mess with it until you get what you want, make a dozen balls, and tweak each one for the current season. I measure ingredients by volume by eye, and rosin will melt faster if crushed a bit, but I go with gravel-sized chunks.

Your waxing on your threads sounds about right--wax right the way through the cordage.

DW,

Glad it's been helpful. Since wax-making for the 4 of us in the shop is only a semi-annual ritual, and with the pitch, etc. changing sources/suppliers every few years, it's just a "whatever works" experiment in kitchen-chemistry these days. We do use an iron pot in the fireplace, and open all the windows, but our clothes still smell of Stockholm tar for days. I kind of like it.

Al,

I really like the smell of birch tar. I even ordered a small bottle of "rectified birch tar oil." I am thinking of slathering it all over my body--it's better than most colognes available on the market today...most of which smell of flowers or fruits.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

Al, I'd like to echo what D.W. said, your last few posts on here have filled out some really key bits of information on how pitch based mixes should look and act when they're 'right' and I'm closer to getting something workable now than I've ever been.

With my 7:1 rosin:stockholm tar mix I have something that sticks to everything and sags into a pancake when left to sit overnight at room temperature, but which also flakes off the thread in use. Somehow I've managed to make it too hard and too soft at the same time!

This drove me back to my 2:1 rosin:beeswax mix for my current project, and using them one after the other got me thinking about the relative properties and 'feel' of each ball.

The beeswax:rosin mix feels harder when I try and dig my thumbnail into it but it doesn't chip or flake off the thread at all. The pitch:rosin mix is much stickier and softer under my thumb but still flakes off and the lump chips easily. The pitch rosin mix is sticky enough at the moment that it is a difficult to sew with because it grabs so readily as the threads pass each other. The one test seam I built with it was incredibly strong though.

The other big difference is that length of waxed-up thread (no bristle) 8-12" long will stick out rigidly when held horizontally with the pitch:rosin mix on it, but will sag into a curve with the beeswax:rosin mix on it.

My current thought is to add both more rosin and more beeswax to try and harden it up and give it a bit more chip-resistance at the same time.

Thanks.

Alasdair,

You'e getting close, oh so close. Just tweak it with more beeswax. If the still flies off the thread, there's too much rosin.

Glad to be of assistance.

Terry,

I keep remembering I need to thank you when I can't do it. And don't remember to do it when I can. You know what I mean?

Anyway, Thank you for the "hunk" of your last batch of hand wax, which you gifted to me at our last visit.

I like it!

Did you say this batch was Stitching Wax and Beeswax @ 4:1?

It seems just right.

Thanks again,
Paul

Paul,

I'm glad you liked it.

It was 8 parts Sellari's White Flex Stitching Wax to 1 part Natural Bees Wax by weight.

I first started out at 4:1 and that was way to soft and went to 8:1.

Terry

Does anyone have a source that carries Sellari's BLACK Flex Stitching Wax? I ordered white from Panhandle Leather (google search).

(Message edited by producthaus on September 14, 2010)

Nick,

I'm told you may find it at either or both of the two listed below.

I understand it's used in welt machines.
But I'll add it's not really sticky enough for me. I'm still wanting to mix some with pitch to grip better.

Baltor O & Sons
263 E Harris Ave
South San Francisco, CA 94080
(650) 589-8759

Paisano Leather Co, 1537 E Paisano Dr, El Paso, TX. Tel: 915-545-2667

Good luck,
Paul

I was talking with someone at Sellari and they confirmed the Flex Wax as being used in welt machines, also mentioning that it cannot really be rubbed on the thread. I am assuming that they were coming from a larger manufacturing point of view, where the entire brick of wax is melted at once. Bespoke makers can still apply the Flex wax via rubbing to create heat, correct?

I watched the video on this forum, and while it was a custom-made wax, I assume you can still rub on Sellari to the thread?

Has anyone tried melting a small amount of wax and running the thread through it, perhaps this could save time and produce better penetration, since the wax would be liquid?

Nick,

You can use Sellarie stitching wax for your thread,i have been using it all my shoe making years,it is simply the sap of the Norfolk pine trees collected and cleaned up and it comes to us in a form of a pound cake, I did some wax welting demo at the HCC AGM last year,but i guess you were not there,Ask the HCC if they have the video for that demo, I can explain it,but i thought it might be better understood if it was watched.

Here is the process, Place the pound cake wax in a pot,heat slowly until it melts,add few drops of oil while the wax is melting/boiling,have a bucket of cold water handy to pour the melting lava in it when it reached that melting point, pour your wax into the bucket of water and carefully gather the wax into a ball,be careful the wax is still hot while in the water,start breaking the big ball into small ones as soon as it is cold enough,if you leave it too long in the water it gets harder to break.your pound cake will produce about 8 or 9 balls of wax. Do this away from children and pets.

I hope that was helpful.

Nasser

You asked about "Sellari's black", I assume that is a dye job,The wax is yellow color in it's pure form,few drops of dye while the wax is melting may give you the color you want,Take this tip with caution,since i never tried it myself,but worth trying for my next batch. When waxing thread with pine sap wax(Sellari),warm up your ball of wax in the palm of your hand or irons lamp(small heat source)to make it soft enough so that the thread strands will sink a little in the wax when you rub the strands through,The wax hardens when it is cold, There is also a demo on thread making with the HCC from 2008, if you are interested.

Nasser

Can you skip the water part and melt the wax straight to "ball-sized" shapes/compartments, i.e., in a silicone cooking tray?

Which oil do you use, and what is it's purpose?

Do you need to taffy-pull Sellari's, hence melted in water?

I have never tried to change the process i was shown making this wax,it is simple enough,You may try it on the silicone tray,but you need to compare it with the traditional way to see if it is better or worse, i use vegetable oil for the mix,about half a bottle cap,It soften the wax a little so it wouldn't shatter or chip easily,Taffy pulling you can do on the wax ball after they are out of water,while in the water the core of the wax ball is lava and still hot and don't squeeze it too hard you may get a hot bobble flying out of there,but you can break pieces gently from the outside moving towards the inside.