Lance,

I don't really have an opinion about whether the Gugolz will work or not. I am speculating all the way. I have over 10 lbs. of Rausch Navel Yard pitch and roughly the same in rock rosin. Plus, with a little scrimping, probably a lifetime supply of Vesta Pech.

I have used ThermoWax and didn't care for it. I have used the Swedish Schwarzbech and thought it was adequate. I have bought the Jared Holt's hand wax and thought ti was terribly brittle ...and we're talking handwax here not pitch. But I figured that was because it had been softened with oil and as Al says the oil is fugitive. (I think that made a movie about that years ago).

I have made recipes in nearly every variation I can come up with...even sperm whale oil...and they all worked. I have used hand wax made by others...and they all worked.

The best I ever used was Vesta Pech...bar none, gone now.

I make my own hand wax and mix it half and half with Vesta Pech and that's what I have on hand for students, as well.

Rick Roman was a student of mine not too long ago and in a post (above) he said he had made up some hand wax using the #73 Gugloz (Rick?) and that it worked good. I am assuming the main point of reference he has is my blend.

So...when you asked...my first thought was that with a little experimentation with different softening agents a good hand wax ought to be possible with the Gugolz.

And that's what we all do--experiment...almost every batch. Some come out fine, some not so good.

Except for the Vesta Pech I've never come up with anything I would want to sell. So, bottom line--don't pay me no mind...there's plenty of room for finding that "magic bullet," if it exists.

Ronald,

But why do they call it "pitch" when it is so evidently rosin?

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

PS...

I don't know whether you fellows are just more in tune with the "information age" or whether it's just that information has compounded so dramatically since I last did a search, but I am amazed that you all have come up with these...multiple...sources!!

Where were they when I needed them?!!

Good on you and keep it up!

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

From Marc Carlson's Site

Pitch (OED 2d Ed.)

A tenacious resinsous substance, of a black or dark brown colour, hard when cold, becoming a thick, viscuous
semi-liquid when heated; obtained as a residue from the boiling or distillation of tar, also from the distillation of turpentine, used to stop the seams of ships after caulking, to protect wood from moisture, and for other purposes.
700 Epinal Gloss...

Applied to various bituminous substances (mineral pitch); esp (Jew's pitch) = ASPHALT 1, BITUMEN 1.
1388 Wycliff Gen. vi 14 Thou schalt anoynte it with pitche...

Improperly applied to the resin or crude turpentine which exudes from pine and fir trees.
Burgundy or White Pitch: See BURGUNDY 5 ... Greek Pitch = COLOPHONY
1398 Trevisa Barth. de. P.R. xvii. cxxi (Tollem MS.) This tre [Pinus] takeþ sone fyre, ..for oute þerof comeþ picche

(Message edited by wsbailey on January 27, 2008)

William:

Your guess is as good as mine about the exact relationship of pine tar to pitch. From previous surfing, my impression would have been that they are somehow slightly different, presence of turpentine aside. However, I can't seem to locate my sources, so that is merely an impression without any citation.

If you decide to try make pitch from pine tar, perhaps give it a whirl with the Kiln Burned Pine Tar available here: swedish pine tar products

and make sure to let us know how it comes out -- or, if you want to try a big batch, maybe some of us would go in on the experiment with you.

Lance

William:


p.s. The source of the Kiln Burned Pine Tar is Auson of Sweden-- if you check out their website (www.Auson.se) and get the product information PDF of the Kiln Burned Pine Tar, it says that "This type of tar is characterized by high resin content, low content of pitch and high purity." However, what the difference is between the 'resin' content and the 'pitch' I certainly don't know. Perhaps a technical distinction that doesn't have any bearing in the real world.

Lance,
Here is a website that states that pitch is boiled down pine tar.

http://www.hampsteadchamber.com/A%20Southern%20Primer/pinetar.htm

The US source for the Auson pine tar is noxudol. They also have a website plus they sell on eBay. I looked at the Kiln Burned Pine Tar too but the statement low content of pitch leads me to believe that plain pine tar is the right choice.

http://noxudolusa.com/

http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/show_product.do?pid=173&familyNa me=Pine+Tar
Here is a site that Sells pine tar in small quantites.

I would not recommend the pine tar for making hand wax. Specifically, the one linked to above. This is a nasty smelling tar meant for horse hoofs as an antifungal.

Rick,

As a person who has had horses all my life (47 years), I'm glad you stepped in! I was dreading opening a can of worms on this one, even though Ronald was trying to help.

Silas Yeaton's Chemistry Lessons

I been readin' this section 'bout coad an' how t' make it. Took me a while to und'stand whatcha was talkin' 'bout - I know when I had a coad, I al's jus' blew my nose. I kinda figg'red th' coad you's talkin' 'bout is prob'ly a diff'rent material than I w's manufacturin'.

Anyways, I d'cided I needed t' try an' make some a' this stuf, 'cause it looked like it might have a bunch a' diff'rent uses.

I got me some a' that pine tar an' found it w's black an' brittle. Smelled kinda funny, too.
I tried a bunch a' times t' make th' stuff - coad, that is. I'll tell ya 'bout 'em.

First time - Like I said, I'd some pine tar an, not bein' all that savvy 'bout pine tar, took my wife's meas'rin' cup - you know the one, it's the one b'longed to 'er great grandmother. You prob'ly got one like it in your cupboard. Wull, I took a bit a' beeswax an' commenced t' meltin it. I'll tell you what, the beeswax melted a heap faster'n the tar. Then, when th' tar fin'ly DID melt, it melted right ont' th' sides a' great Grammy's meas'rin' cup.

Wull, I took the most beat-up thing I c'd find. How's I t' know it w's great Grammy's? I got a perty good sad-face when th' wife found out. All in all, she's mighty toll'rant with me. Th' first batch was a failure, an' it took a lotta time.

Secong try, p'raps two years later - Wull, I w's smarter, now. I know it's gonna stick t' whatever it contacts. I took me one a' them high-powered freezer bags an' put th' tar an' wax in it. Then I fill't up a cookin' pot with water an' set it t' heatin' on th' stove. I put the heavy bag with th' wax an' tar in it int' the water t' get it het up. Same thing happened as b'fore - th' wax melted an' the tar didn't, 'least for a while. Then I noticed the tar sof'nin' a bit. I took it out an' commenced t' kneedin' it still inside th' bag. Had a quite a bit a' trouble getin' it t' blend, though. Spent a lot more time on it than I wanted to, but ended up with another mess when th' bag broke an' leaked pine tar an' beeswax all over th' stove top. Like I said, she's awful good t' me.

Third time, prob'ly another two years later - I took th' last failed batch, still mostly in th' same torn bag, an commenced t' tryin' again. This time, I tried th' water without any bag - just hot water in a plastic tub. I dumped in th' beeswax an' th' tar, an' run th' tap just's hot's I c'd stand it. I left the 'ngredients in, so's t' heat through. I kept drainin' off an' addin' more hot, an' kept testin' the softness a' both 'ngredients. I scraped of a bit a' th' wax an' a bit a' th' tar an' c'menced t' kneadin' Wull, son-of-a-gun, she seemed t' go t'gether a bit. I kept kneadin', scrapin, kneadin' some more, an' perty soon, I'd me a right mess. Only diff'rence was, this'n w's on my hands. Seemed like ev'rything I kneaded b'came another layer a' skin. Wull, I kept it up, scrapin' little pieces a' tar off th' big chunk, doin' th' same thing w'th th' beeswax, an' kneadin', then I scraped th' crud off a' my fingers an'made a bit of a ball out of it.

Wall, I'll tell you what, it looked, smelt an' felt like somethin' I c'd act'ly use. I kept scrapin' little hunks a' tar and little hunks a' wax 'til th' tar w's all gone. I same-wise kept scrapin' my hands an' addin' t' th' ball, then run it under cold water.

I ain't run any string through it yet, but I kinda think I might a' made me some coad, an' all that 'thout blowin my nose!

Oh, yes - she says th' sink faucet is sticky. I can't win for losin'!

I bought some Burgundy pitch from a company that sells different pitches for use in making telescopes:

http://www.newportglass.com/awxpch.htm

It's a nice amber color and softer than rosin. It appears to be a fabricated product though and I want to try the natural stuff. Here is a source that sells it for incense.

http://www.scents-of-earth.com/burgundy.html


Bill

Here is another source for pine tar:

http://www.tarsmell.com/tar.html

Bill

I went ahead and order a liter of the Auson 'Kiln Burned Pine Tar' from Noxudol, which is apparently made in the traditional method, i.e. in old kilns used for producing turps, pine tar, and charcoal. The Pine Tar is pretty viscous and sticky on its own; I have cooked some (perhaps 6 fluid ounces) in a small electric skillet to drive off the residual turpentine, and after a couple of hours of doing so am left with a very sticky pitch, maybe 3 or 4 ounces of pitch from the 6 ounces of pine tar. The pitch is still pretty soft -- at room temperature it 'flows' a little, i.e. it will not hold a shape over time, say 24 hours, but will tend to melt into a small blob. It has a very nice, smoky smell to it. When I cooked it (OUTSIDE, since you're boiling off turpentine), and then left my clothes inside, my wife spent a bunch of time trying to locate the 'fire' she thought was somewhere in our house! The nice thing is you can get the pitch to whatever degree of hardness you want, since you can cook it for longer or shorter durations, and if it is too hard you can just add a little of the pine tar, recook it and you'll have a softer product.

I will report back when I've tried some handwax from the pitch, but the pitch by itself seems to adhere quite nicely and stickily to linen thread.

Looks like you got the genuine article Lance. It appears that tarsmell.com sells the same stuff under their own label. I made some hand wax using the Swedish pitch from Newport Glass and it worked out well. I'm eager to hear how your wax turns out. Bill

State of the Mess Address (pitch)--

As I mentioned months ago, we were trying to source genuine chunk pine-pitch for making wax. Nearly 20 years ago we got the best batch from White Sea & Baltic Co. in Leeds, Yorks. UK. This pitch was called "Swedish", was soft, had the strong smell of Stockholm tar, was lovely to work with and made the best wax I've ever used.

White Sea & Baltic Co. no longer handles this, and they claim they do not keep records that old as to where they sourced it out of Sweden, so the hunt began. After many $ spent on samples from hither, thither, and yon, we ended up with "the" Swedish natural pitch company, dickering with them for samples of 100% pine tree pitch. Two tiny test samples cost the museum $350! The stuff worked fine, but did not have the strong smell of the Stockholm tar. So, after a little back and forth it turns out there has been no domestic production of any of this material in Scandanavia for years--it's all made in China now, even the smelly tar! Mr. Ling Fu (I should have been suspicious of the China connection) was very helpful, and has had a 200 lb. run of the stuff specially made for us with the "Stockholme" tar added for scent. He says the differences are due to the different types of pine trees in China.

In all events, the new shipment of "Swedish" pine pitch is landing in Virginia within days, and after it clears US Customs and gets to our main warehouse, I'll report back on how it works, as well as posting the exact nane of the company and contact information. I doubt they'd make/sell a few pounds here and there, but some kind soul might order it in quantity and divvy it up for the HCC? Sadly Colonial Williamsburg Foundation cannot sell from our raw materials inventory, but I'll do my best to see that this source is shared for whatever good it might do the shoemaking community world-wide. Stay tuned....

News Flash--

The "Swedish" pine pitch is in--100% pure natural pine product. It works very well for making wax, and at my request they added Stockholm tar (now also made in China) for the right smell too. It runs a little soft even in our freezing weather, but this just means you must add more rosin to your mix.

The bad part is their 100 kg. minimum order meant that after shipping, etc. a one gallon paint can of the stuff runs nearly $200 USD.

As promised, here's the contact information for what it's worth to you purists:

Ling Fu
FC Sweden
Sjobogatan 53
506 41 Boras
Sweden
Tel & Fax: +46 (0)33-201626
Mobil: 0705834968
Web: www.fcsweden.com
E-mail: ling.fu@telia.com

Al:

Interesting information. I presume you also contacted Auson to find out more information about their products? Out of curiosity, have you experimented with making some pitch out of the Auson kiln burned pine tar?

So, from what you've learned, all the 'Swedish' natural pine tar products out there, including Auson's, would be produced in China?

Also, when you say the product cost $200 for a gallon container, was that the actual cost per 'gallon' for an entire 100kg order -- i.e. if we assume a 'gallon' of the pitch would weigh, say 20 pounds [= 8kg], then the total cost of the order was the cost you quote time X 25 (i.e. 200 kg min order/8 kg per gallon)? Or, did you simply get a smaller quantity but still have to pay for the minimum order size of 200kg?

Thanks,
Lance

Al,

Have you tried playing with the Gugolz pitch we got a while ago? I had a brief play with it a while ago, mixing it with stockholm tar to soften it slightly but I was having trouble getting the ratios right. The last attempt I had was much too soft and I only realised after I had my hands in a bucket of water thoroughly coated with warm sticky tar.

I'm lucky to live in a small country with quite a big racing industry so pure pine-based stockholm tar is quite easy to get hold of here.

My feeling with the Gugolz pitch is that it is hard enough that adding rosin shouldn't be necessary if it can be brought to the right viscosity just by adding tar but rosin may be required for the stickyness.

Pine tar wise, I don't know if this would suit, but many ski stores carry it in small cans for a nominal fee. It is used to seal wooden Cross-country skis. It produces a mildly protected surface that is receptive to ski wax. It is not used on the composite skis that dominate these days. The major wax companies are all scandinavian.

http://www.woodenskis.com/wood_waxing.htm

Lance,

Much to my surprise Mr. Fu informed me (and showed me invoices!) his Chinese plant makes all the pine products for Auson too, and he said there has not been any pine distilling in Scandinavia, now, for maybe 8 or 10 years--IOW it's all from China.

They require a 100 kg. minimum order (approx. 200 lbs.)--we got all 100 kg.. The stuff comes in "gallon" size paint cans packed 4 to a carton. After I factored in the $350 for initial test samples, and air freight, etc. to Norfolk, Virginia, it worked out to around $200 per gallon tin, making it the most expensive stuff I've ever used for wax

Alasdair,

I didn't have much joy with Gugolz "pitch"--not even sure it was 100 pine product. I did have a bit of luck mixing the Stockholm tar (aromatic) with pine rosin to "make" rudimentary pitch, then adding more rosin, beeswax, etc. to that. One guy in CA I rang on the phone last year said that the late and lamented Mr. Rausch of Rausch Naval Stores (New Orleans) made their pitch simply by mixing this pine tar with hard chunk rosin, so I tried it too. Seemed to work alright for me, but no way would I cook-up 200 lbs. of it in a gallon kettle in the fireplace of the tiny shop, so we went ahead and bought-in this "lifetime" supply from Fu's outfit.

For occasional use, and small quantities, I'd almost recommend you use the aromatic "Stockholm" tar semi-liquid ("The Real Stuff" brand from CA works and smells the best) and mix it with hard chunk rosin to "make" pitch, then experiment from there to make wax. BTW, last time I shopped for chunk pine rosin, what I got was "gum rosin" from Brazil or SA someplace. The distilled turpentine industry in the USA is totally gone, so none of its by-products (pine-tar, -pitch, -rosin) are made here anymore *sniffle*

Al,

Thanks for that commentary on the Gugolz stuff. I have it, an importantly it's easy for others to get hold of, so I'll continue seeing if I can make it work but I'll certainly have a go at mixing up Stockholm tar and rosin on their own to make a pitch.

My aim is to get a working recipe for a good pitch-based code that doesn't involve beeswax at all, beeswax being a stupidly expensive material in the medieval period. Tallow, though, seems to have been fairly common so I can always use that to anneal the mixture if necessary.

I'll let the forum know when I've made usable progress.

Hi, I see that you are looking always for the best pitch. I found this:
here is the page of the last pitch manufacture in Europe. It is owned by two brothers Jürgen and Johan Piering, the Piering family is making pitch since 1795 in the town of Eich Saxony Germany. They doing there pitch to day the same way they done it 1795. This would be 214 years of pitch making experience. They selling different kind of pitches but also 2 different kind ready made handwax's.
http://www.pechpiering.de
Thanks Olaf

(Message edited by olandrea on March 17, 2009)

Hi Olaf,
Would Shiffspeche be the right stuff for making hand wax?

Bill

I got something that looks very similar tot eh Saddler's and Shoe wax pictured on their website--the gold coloured half-balls. I got it from Goetz in Goeppingen Germany.

No offense to anyone but I didn't care for it. It was not tacky at all. I can make better hand wax from hot melt wax using a variation of what Nasser uses. But come down to it, I much prefer to make it from raw pitch and rosin.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

DW this is the Saddler's and Shoe pitch and not the Saddler's and Shoe wax. I know it is difficult for most of you because it is all in German but what they produce is raw pitch the same way it was made 200 years ago. I can't recommend if the Shiffspeche ist the right stuff because I simple don't know. I don't know if they speak English but the best way to find out is to send them a mail.
But since this pitch is made old style I'm sure there will be one sort of the 27 different pitches they offer the ride stuff to make some nice hand wax. So I would not be so fast and say there stuff is not tacky at all with out knowing if this stuff is from Piering and with out knowing there outer pitches. I don't no if Götz sell there stuff because the half balls is here in Germany a very common shape. But what I know that the Piering's sell most of there stuff in square block shape like this.
http://www.leder-louis.ch/eshop/catalog/images/120%20155-00.jpg .
In Germany and Austria the most common recipe around 1850's was 1/3 linseed oil + 1/8 beeswax + 2/3 pitch.
Olaf