Lance:

Thank you very much. I have Vass' book, and I will look for those you recommended.

Washek

I am adding another question to the one Paul started RE : filling in the negative space around the perimeter of the insole to support the curved shape created by forming it to the last...

I saw this wonderful picture on the R.M. Williams website showing the use of rib tape and cork. I was wondering if someone could explain the rib tape further, as it seems to be used exactly for the purpose of filling in and supporting the outside edge of the curved insole. Are there other terms for it, is it synthetic?

The only tape I am aquainted with is the prime system which is a tape containing a leather rib that is stuck to the insole, the rib serves the purpose of a hold fast to which the upper and welt is sewn. I have seen it on factory brands of boots more than on shoes, the system works quite well for a while but as any cobbler will tell you when it goes it is gone. It is most often used on syntho insoles such as texon. It requires a machine to install properly and is used with inseaming machines.
Tom

Nick,

These are my opinions...supported by nearly 40 years of experience and much of the literature...but opinions nevertheless--your mileage will vary...

First, "gemming" (as the ribbing is known) is a factory implemented technique. In my opinion, it is a much inferior technique for making a shoe when compared to competently done hand welted technique. There are logical, rational, and even empirical reasons for that assessment but that's for another post.

Second, the insole does not need filling when properly hand welted. Perhaps a little bit of scrap lining leather...nothing more. See the photo below:



Third, cork is fugitive. Cork is often touted as a cushioning agent but when the shoe is in wear the weight of the foot will cause the cork to migrate out from under those areas receiving the greatest pressure. Thus, just when and where you need it the most, it disappears.

Gemming is, as Tom suggested, not as sturdy as the surrounding materials. It is not fragile to the point of being delicate but the only thing holding it in place is glue. When that glue fails...as it eventually will, short of placing the shoes in a box and/or wearing them only on rose-petaled carpets once a year...the whole shoe is jeopardized.

More importantly, however, gemming is the first step in a long but certain slide towards the bottom rungs of quality.

As can be seen in your illustration, even the leather insole that is a hallmark of quality construction has gone missing in the process of making that brand (and many others) of shoe. Leatherboard is akin to "shoddy" (or particleboard, if you do any woodworking). To the extent that it is leather at all, it is more binder than leather.

Gemming and all the attendant compromises that inevitably follow do not add "comfort, flexibility" or "durability" (particularly not durability )as compared to hand welted construction. Gemming actually adds nothing except expediency...and subtracts much.

Finally, by the time you get to the stage where you are considering gemming...there's no room (or need) for the shoemaker.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member



(Message edited by admin on April 20, 2010)

Ditto's with DW on cork. I have tried it with both sheet and the caulk gun variety. I have found that the scrap under the cutting table is still the best and most economical way to deal with this and it lasts longer.
Tom

Thanks for the responses, its helpful to position "what not to use" just as as it's important to also know "what to use".

I am going with cement lasted for my first few pairs of shoes, as there are so many other things to learn about. This means I wont have welt, etc, to fill in that area, but it sounds like skived scrap leather is a very suitable answer as Tom and everyone reaffirms.

Perhaps I'll revisit this issue once I have the upper lasted to the insole.

"I am going with cement lasted for my first few pairs of shoes, as there are so many other things to learn about. This means I wont have welt,etc, to fill in that area, "



Nick, Your comment above makes me think you didn't get the question right, or the answers you got didn't address your real question.

The illustration you posted showed the inside layers and the insoles, thus the replies about gemming. However your note quoted above could seem to imply a question about "rand welt".

Rand welt is available from shoe finders and it is cementd to the upper after lasting, and then the soles are cemented on, tho sometimes MyKay stitched, so that the rand becomes a false welt, filling in the curved area you were referring to earlier.

If I'm mistaken, just take it with the grain of salt, otherwise more info about rand welt has been and can be discussed.

Paul

Yes, I was trying to grasp at rand, now that responses have come in. Nassar posted how he makes heel seats in Outsoles on Sunday, June 14, 2009 - 09:34 am. I think this is what I was wrestling with, I need to take up that gap between the curved heel and flatter sole when cement lasting and no false welt is used.

I am worried that my insole is a bit too thin for welted construction. I measured and it's 3mm thick. I heard that 4mm - 5mm is more typical?

Nick,

Of course, it is easier and a little more fault tolerant to use a thicker leather but, is also depends on the characteristics of the leather.

If you can pierce the leather with your awl, sufficient to get your thread through, without ripping it out and/or resulting in a hole that will easily rip out, then you are good to go.

Shoulder leather seems best suited to this as it has longer fibers.

Try making a few holes on a test piece and do a few stitches of mock welting and see how it hold up.

- Rick

Nick,
on my last pair I used an insole that was about 5mm thick and felt like I filled the cavity adequatley.

I dont know if the actual welt or the hold fast was a problem but I could feel something popping up a little higher that was uncomforatable.

I also have some foot problems that definatley could be the cause of that though.

I would want to use a thicker insole than 3mm though.

And, not to be a killjoy but from a beginners viewpoint I wouldnt welt the shoe if I was you and you were planning on wearing them because if they are not quite right in fit it is way easier to adjust them if its cement construction than welted.

Courtney

If my last is reletivly flat on the bottom with a 1/2 in. heel, is it a terrible idea to cut my insole from the last bottom pattern and just tack it on dry? there really isnt a whole lot of curvature to mold, just asking?

Courtney

Courtney

That is what is done in factories, but they use board of some sort. The problem here is that you have to make sure that when you last the upper over, it doesn't catch the edge of the insole which will be sitting up a bit as there is generally a bit of curve there.

I used to do it that way until I learned about moulding it to the last and came to the decision that it was better to mould. Mind you, with a 1/2" heel, it should be ok.

Tim