One "Last" Question

[shoestring]

Lance& Tim,

Lance you are right"cm".I made the measurements with my foot on my stitching horse and the other on the floor.As it stands now I will concentrate on the instept.And will take under consideration how the last maker think.Thanks for the feed back both of you.

[dw]

Ed,

I'm less an expert than almost anyone posting here with regards to shoes but...a little different approach...I measure, always, with weight off the foot.

Not too suprisingly, the way I measure for boots is going to have to be somewhat different than the way I measure for shoes. But early in the week, I remeasured myself (weight off) and then proceeded to modify my lasts and make a couple of full blown fitters models.

Both fit very well. If the final shoes fit as well as the fitter's models I will be very happy. Slightly snug but extremely comfortable.

I think there was maybe an eighth to, in some places, almost a quarter inch difference in what I like in a boot and what I liked in the fitter's model. But both were taken weight off.

This is just another way...if you are comfortable taking measurements weight on, pay no attention.


Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[jenny_fleishman]

Rick, Craig--and anyone who has used Smooth-on products...I got a sample kit of Smooth-Cast 305 and just made a test sample yesterday. It is VERY hard. I was able to pound tacks into it, but it was extremely difficult to pull the tacks OUT of it. This would make lasting very tiring, particularly since I use about 1,000 tacks per shoe

Do you use a different Smooth-On product for making lasts? Thanks.

Jenny

[romango]

Jenny -

I use smooth-cast 300Q. This sets up in 30 sec, which I need to keep from melting the STS socks I pour the plastic into. You could use 300 (withouth the Q) if you are using a plaster or other non heat sensitive mold.

I find 300Q to be ideal for nailing, cutting and sanding. However, when I look at the Smooth-On site chart, I don't see any difference in hardness between 300 and 305 http://www.smooth-on.com/liqplas.htm

I do avoid completely seating nails but rather use longer nails and leave the heads sticking up. I have fully seated them, in some cases, and still have not had any problem getting them out. Although, I agree it is more difficult than wood.

[corvin]

Jenny, are you using tacks that are cement coated?

[jenny_fleishman]

I am using tacks that are not coated with anything. I always leave the heads sticking up. Of course, I'm a 99 lb. weakling--OK, I USED to be a 99 lb. weakling [img]http://www.thehcc.org/forum/images/old_smilies/sad.gif"%20ALT="sad[/img], now I'm just a weakling!

Jenny

[corvin]

What tool are you using when you try and remove them?

[romango]

A pair of wire clippers is handy for removing nails. They allow you to grab the nails right at the base.

5473.jpg

[danfreeman]

Ed--
Your question occurs often, and has to all of us. All of the replies that followed were correct, and a few more probably apply, as well. I have given up on the idea of measuring the foot and expecting to reliably produce perfect footwear. There are too many interrelated variables. I measure--using my own method, no better or worse than anyone elses; consider all those variables, and make a fitting model. Every year, a few more of them fit first time than did the year before. And every year, I need to make multiple models for some clients. If it were easier, there would be more shoe and bootmakers.

[jenny_fleishman]

Craig, I use nail pincers, which I think are the standard tool.

Jenny

[corvin]

Jenny, hmmm, perhaps try and coat your tacks with a release like silicon? Anyone else got any ideas?

[ridgerunrbunny]

Goodness where do I start? A newbie here. I think I am looking for answers to questions before I get my hands going.

I have in mind making a mold of my own foot and using this as the sole. Is this possible?

[paul]

Bunny,

Where to start indeed! Even answering your question poses a quandary.
But first off, Welcome! From your web page I see you no doubt have the motivation to be successful at shoe making.

It is recommended that reading the forum thoroughly, will usually answer most questions that could be asked.

One of our new posters, Jenny, just went thru many of the preliminary steps in the last couple of years, with many questions similar to the one you ask. Use the search function and see what you learn to start.

Taking a class with someone, or getting one of the tutorial books is a good way to start. Sharon Raymond's SIMPLE SHOES, is pretty basic.

In any case, it's a long road. Perseverance and stamina are required to get to the end result.

Good luck, and don't get discouraged.

PK

[dw]

Welcome to the Crispin Colloquy.

The question you posed doesn't parse...at least not as I understand it.

You need a last to make a shoe over. Taking a cast of your foot can be a first step in making a last. Since there is an insole and an outsole involved in making a shoe or boot only the insole--in direct contact with the foot--would be molded to the bottom of the...last.

There are all sorts of intermediate types of footwear that aren't technically shoes, some of which, like felted slippers, might very well be able to be molded to the bottom of your foot or a foot cast. I have such a pair--spun, felted and made by my better half. But I can't help you with those types of things.

As Paul said, reading the forum or every book on the subject you can get your hands on, is the best way to at least get a feel for the journey ahead.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[ridgerunrbunny]

Finding something in this forum is not as easy as said and done. The format is unfamiliar to me. But I will preserver.

About making a mold of my foot. Sounds good If I knew what type molding material (whats it called?) I would be looking for, and who would be selling such material. That definitely is a start. Is there a definition page here, so I will know what I am talking about, or you are talking about?

I have been looking for reading material and have found several. I am not sure if the book you are referring to is the one she offers on her website as she states something about books being out of print, , with a "but" qualification. I found the "Bespoke" book on the Walrus site and that one sounds like a good one, but I would not want to get bored with too much knowledge right off, and couple others.

I did email the Healthy Handmade shoes gent in Lexington Va for information about the classes he offers on his website, but have not heard back from him or her. He is about the closest to me here in Missouri that would be feasible to travel too.

Bunny

[amuckart]

Another in the series of rather basic questions I've been asking lately. I've been thinking a lot about where I want to end up with the shoemaking I do, it's a hobby and unlikely to ever be something I do professionally, but it's something I enjoy learning about and doing a great deal so I think it is time I started to do it a bit more seriously, and 'right', than I have been.

To that end I'm going to need to learn how to scratch-build lasts since I can't afford to pay someone to make them for me, and the styles of lasts I'm going to need aren't commercially available. I'll get a copy of Koleff's book and bug Marc ex-forum about the shape of medieval lasts, but where do I go to learn about the processes involved in actually making one?

Assuming I'm starting by roughing out the shape on a bandsaw or (more likely) a block knife, and then shaping it with a pattern maker's rasp or a microplane, can anyone tell me what finishing steps go between the shaping and final finishing with scrapers and what tools I should start thinking about acquiring for this process?

Thanks.

[das]

Alasdair,

You're doing right to start with the lasts, as they control more about the shoes than any other single factor.

Marc's website is the best source (yet again) for info. on the period you're looking at. Be sure to read it all, and view all the images he's posted.

As to the hand-method of actually chopping, shaping, and making lasts, the only sources that spring to mind are:

Diderot & d'Alembert's, 'Recuiel de Planches', a multi-volume 18thc. work that has been reprinted many, many times. It might even be reprimted in Salaman's 'Dictionary of Leather Working Tools', where there is more on lastmaking as well. Diderot has a series of illustrations of lastmakers (Formiers) at work from which much can be gleaned. The captions to his plates are less than helpful, but hopefully you can cope with French?

Tebbutt,____; 'Lastmaking' 1890s(?) Search the Forum on this, as I recall posting the full bibliographic citation before someplace. He shows the bench-knife, the basic sequence of cuts to rough-cut the shape, then the final shaping with a rasp.

F.Y. Golding; 'Boots & Shoes, Their Making, Manufacture and Selling, has a section in ___ volume on lastmaking with photos of the old "chopping" methods, etc.

Lastmaking was a seperate trade from shoemaking, and you'll soon learn why, the hard way

[amuckart]

Al,

Thanks for this information.

From what I've read here, particularly of DW's recent posts fitting up shoe lasts I've come to the conclusion that the trick of making shoes that fit is making lasts that fit. It sure is a different trade from shoemaking, but shoemaking is a very different trade from network engineering which is what I do for coin. I'll learn it eventually but only if I start

I've had a hunt around for the books you refer to. Lots of online copies of Diderot & d'Alembert, but none with pictures I will consult with local librarians about finding a hard copy. It's terrifyingly expensive from places like abebooks.

I searched the forum for "Tebbutt" but only got your post and an earlier one on vices used for lastmaking. I did find an ancient internet post saying it was available from the HCC library in photocopy, is this still the case?

I'm hunting for Golding, but the supplies in places I know about seem to have dried up. I'll keep looking.

Thanks.

[dw]

For those who have been involved or following my initial exploration of what constitutes a shoe last, I present a couple of photos of the last I made my latest fitter model on.

This was a one inch heel boot last in a 7D. I wear something like a 7EE forepart, B heel. When I went to modify the last rather than put the build-up on top of the cone to get the long heel measurement I wanted, I had to move that substance to the medial side and most notably slightly under the arch.

The boot lasts that I use, appear obviously "drawn" upward in the cone area. This is a feature of boot lasts. But it also pulls the arch high. No problem on a boot...even if, like myself, you have a very low arch. But on a shoe especially with a heel stiffener that comes around and into the arch significantly, it can present a problem.

So...having seen at least one reputed-to-be-shoe last and noting the way the cone was really low and the medial arch really low and full, I decided to take that as a model to some extent.

I also narrowed up the cone/comb by at least an eighth inch on both sides...maybe more. And of course, I widened the forepart to fit my footprint, and cut the heel/heel seat to match my heel.

When I was done every measurement that I consider critical was identical to what I had measured off my foot.

And the fit was really, really good.

So anyway here are the photos of the last...heavily modded... for your C&C (comment and critique)

Does it still look like a boot last?

5742.jpg

5743.jpg

5744.jpg

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[romango]

The cone seems to do an abrupt dive as compared to this shoe last

5748.jpg

[artzend]

DW

I think it still looks like a boot last. Rick's one could have a slightly higher cone, but I reckon it looks less like a boot last.

If the shoe fits...

Tim

[das]

Alasdair,

The Tebbutt book is: Last Making and Last Measurement; (London,1889) by Albert E. Tebbutt.

The HCC Reprint coordinator is Bill Julian, a Forumite whose e-mail you can probably get from this site.

Diderot & d'Alembert's 'Recueil de Planches" (collection of plates) are the picture volumes, and these have been reprinted umpteen times by various presses right through the 1980s. Ask your libraian for advice here.

Happy hunting!

[shoestring]

DW,
Comparing yours to a regular shoe last it does resemble a boot last still.But my take on this is if your modification does what you want and need than the job is accomplished.It's like buying a VW or a Chevy,in the end you have transportation.I'll settle for the Chevy........... .

Ed

[marc]

Alistair,

"Assuming I'm starting by roughing out the shape on a bandsaw or (more likely) a block knife, and then shaping it with a pattern maker's rasp or a microplane, can anyone tell me what finishing steps go between the shaping and final finishing with scrapers and what tools I should start thinking about acquiring for this process? "

You may certainly feel free to contact me anytime. The only reason I haven't been posting here (or much of anywhere) is that I've been buried at work.

I use a rasp. Seriously. You can do a lot with table sanders and grinders, but depending on what sort of wood you are using, a rasp gives you more control. Plus it teaches you patience.

Reshaping modern lasts to fit historical shapes is possible, but has not shown itself to be worth the effort.

Marc

[amuckart]

Marc,

Thanks. No doubt I'll bug you for period last information once I've gotten started on the process.

I'll do a test couple out of pine but the long-term plan is to drop a whole willow tree come autumn if it's still available and split that up green into rough last and patten blanks.

I don't own any woodworking power tools and I'd rather not acquire any so I'll be doing this with a rasp. I have a feeling that doing it with a rasp will make it easier to get a feel for the shape I'm building anyway.

The pattern makers rasp from Lee Valley looks like the Right Tool and costs about as much as really cheap sander. A woodworker friend has said that with it's random tooth pattern I can probably just go straight from the rasp to finishing with cabinet scrapers and avoid abrasives altogether.