Tools of the Trade

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chuck_deats

Re: Tools of the Trade

#1026 Post by chuck_deats »

Larry,

FWIW, Be careful with the Silicone. It is easy to contaminate a shop. Silicone is almost impossible to clean up. It is transfered by hands, tools,and work surfaces. It leaves a film on everything and adhesives will not stick. My experience was silicone saddle oil used rather slopply. Afterwards I could not get epoxy to stick. Joint looked good but low strength. Don't know about leather adhesives, but commercial shops that use adhesives do not allow silicone anywhere near the bonding areas. I do not allow any silicone in my shop.

Chuck
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Re: Tools of the Trade

#1027 Post by chuck_deats »

Could use some help on adjusting the skiving blade on a 5 in 1. Mine is a Sutton, but suspect they are all about the same. There is one adjustment for the blade in and out toward the rollers. There is an adjustment on each end of the blade holder for height and tilt of the blade. My blade is beveled on both sides. The top side is a longer bevel than the bottom. The skiver works fine on 9 to 12 iron firm sole leather. On 5 to 6 iron toe boxes and shank covers (in particular, shank covers, which may not be as firm), it tends to duck under the blade and peel the top.

Is there a procedure for setting the blade? Don't have an instruction book or have ever seen or heard of one. It is certainly not something you would want to do every day. It works pretty good as is and don't want to screw it up. It also may be the operator.

Thanks, Chuck
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Re: Tools of the Trade

#1028 Post by bjohnsonleather »

Chuck,
I have a Landis handcrank skiver and two other brandss of 2-in-1 machines. One of mine came with a blade single beveled (think of a miniature version of a splitter blade). I now suspect it was homemade or someone's experiment. It worked fine for boardy leather, but dove or chopped off softer material.
That said, I see a few things I would do with your machine. I would even up the blade bevel. One side longer than the other will tend to rise or fall due to different angles, especially in softer materials. Much like a draw knife blade with differing bevels or out of true will wander or bind. The other is to adjust the screw on the back of the blade to get the cutting edge as close to the feedwheels as you can. This will help to keep them feeding the material true, and not bunch up against the blade, or sag and get a start too low or high. Final thing is to make sure the blade is really sharp. I can fake my way through some boardy leather with a fairly but not really sharp blade. When I go to softer leather, it bunches, feeds bad, and I say bad words.

Bruce Johnson
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Re: Tools of the Trade

#1029 Post by big_larry »

Chuck,

I was not aware of the problems with silicone. Thank you for the "heads up."

Larry Peterson
chuck_deats

Re: Tools of the Trade

#1030 Post by chuck_deats »

Bruce,

Thanks for the input. The blade looks fairly new and is professionally ground. Will give it a touch up sharpening and try to set it as near to the rollers as possible. Maybe using a sheet of paper between the edge of the blade and the roller to set it. Not sure I want to mess with the tilt and height yet. We will see if it helps. Again, Thanks.

Chuck
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Re: Tools of the Trade

#1031 Post by amuckart »

I hope this is the right place for this query.

I'm looking for straight, round awls. In can find curved oval awls and straight diamond awls in all sorts of shapes and sizes, but straight round ones are eluding me and none of my attempts to manufacture one have been satisfactory.

I'm building turned shoes with these things I need a largish 2.5mm diameter one for soling and a small ~1mm diameter one for tunnel stitching things like heel stiffeners and reinforcing cords onto the uppers.

Any suggestions for places I can look for these, preferably online would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.
tomo

Re: Tools of the Trade

#1032 Post by tomo »

Alasdair, try Birdsalls
http://www.birdsall-leather.com.au/default.asp
you might need to email them re the size as there's no picture.

More power to y'awl
T.
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Re: Tools of the Trade

#1033 Post by romango »

I recently acquired a Sutton Finisher with quite a few attachments. I think these are for burnishing. Is this correct? Any details you can add would be appreciated.
4938.jpg
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Re: Tools of the Trade

#1034 Post by paul »

Hello Rick,

I'll take a crack at this, since I find an empty box below your querry, while reading todays posts from the HCC web page. (I say this to encourage others who often only read, to look for ways to participate in discussions. You have some of the these answers, too.)

Rick, both of these items are burnishing attachments for the sole and heel edges:
The 4 edge irons are of different sizes for sole thickness. They are often used heated, by a friction devise mounted on the side of the machine. The verticle channels hold wax to apply to the sole edge. You'll also usually find a narrow channel along the inside rim, this sets the bead applied by the edge trimmer, elsewhere on the finsiher.
The bayonet, is a burnishing wheel used on the heel base after the ink has dried. This too is waxed. Depending on your finishers setup, this should attach somewhere.

But both of these operate best at slower revolutions. Most Sutton models that I'm familiar with are pretty fast. And I can't think of any Suttons that had edge iron setups installed. My guess is they're from an old Landis. (I'd be interested in them if you don't plan to use them.)

What model Sutton did you buy?

PK
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Re: Tools of the Trade

#1035 Post by romango »

Thanks Paul,

It is a Sutton T-2 Mini Finisher.
4941.jpg

You'll also usually find a narrow channel along the inside rim, this sets the bead applied by the edge trimmer, elsewhere on the finsiher

Can you restate this in more layman's language? I am not understanding the relationship between the burnishing attachments and the edge trimmer.
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Re: Tools of the Trade

#1036 Post by dw »

Rick,

The leather flap burnisher with the bayonet fitting has no relationship to the burnishing irons or the trimmer section.

That said, a careful examination of the shape (the topography) of the burnishing irons along with the shape of the trimmer cutters will reveal a one-to-one similarity. The cutters leave the edge of the sole such that a little wire of leather (a bead really but it is called a "wire" ) is left on the vertical surface of the sole (the edge) top and bottom. A bevel is also cut into the top surface of the welt and the bottom surface of the sole. Some concave shaping of the edge of the sole also takes place.

The burnishing irons set that edge and those features by melting hot wax into the fibers of the leather.

Now, the only caveat...like a lot of things in this business...some folks have decided that it is too much trouble or requires too much skill, to cut and set the "wires" properly. So some of the newer finishers, and consequently trimmers and the burnishers, omit these details. So you may not have them on your finisher...or on your trimmer blades...even though the burnishing irons look like they are the older equipment.

Tight Stitches
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(Message edited by dw on April 21, 2007)
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Re: Tools of the Trade

#1037 Post by romango »

I think I understand. Sounds like a trim then burnish with matching or compatible trimmer and burnisher wheels. And there is some question if mine are designed to leave 'wires' or not. Can you tell from these photos? Do you think these poorly maintained blades be cleaned up and still used?
4943.jpg
4944.jpg
4945.jpg
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Re: Tools of the Trade

#1038 Post by paul »

Rick,

Seems to be a good looking machine. My apologies for not being clearer.

The edge trimmer is on the shaft upper left of your finisher. It trims the sole edge with a circular row of blades. And the cut the trimmer blades makes, leaves a thin bead that ideally will line up with the thin horizontal channel on your irons when burnishing.

Does the right side end of the lower shaft, that drives the sandpaper bands, look like it will accept a bayonet like your wheel? Doesn't look likely from my view. You might be able to make it bayonet friedly, though.

In either case, the items you're asking about don't look to me like they're compatible with this finisher.

PK
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Re: Tools of the Trade

#1039 Post by romango »

Yeah, the right side of the shaft is a bayonet and the burnishers fit on there nicely. What kind of wax would I put on the burnishers?
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Re: Tools of the Trade

#1040 Post by dw »

Rick,

The trimmer cutter that is already mounted on the machine (in the first of the last three photos you posted) is the right kind of trimmer. It will have a number on it that will match to a number on the burnishing irons. And yes, you have the sequence right.

If the trimmers in the bottom photo will fit on your Sutton, then they will work and will match other size irons. That said, they look badly worn and in desperate need of a sharpening if nothing else. The trimmer cutter in the second photo is for top lifts. It will generally not have any "features," or just on one edge. The trimmer in the top row center looks to be a top lift cutter, as well.

As Paul mentioned, the trimmers should run really fast and the burnishing irons slow...same with brushes--slow. Sanding wheels can run faster than brusches and burnishing irons but not as fast as the trimmer section.

BTW, the burnishing irons must be heated to apply and set the wax and this is usually done with a built-in leather friction pad. But if you don't have one of those, there is a work-around.

Tight Stitches
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relferink

Re: Tools of the Trade

#1041 Post by relferink »

Rick,

Nice machine to pick up. The burnishing irons are different from any of the ones I've worked with, maybe a European – America thing. The one's I've worked with back in Europe only have 2 facets. The rest of the iron is round and smooth. Could have to do with the machine speeds, by having less facets the faster machines won't as easily tear up the side and there may even be more friction so the iron warms up while doing the job.
Or maybe it's different because one's used for shoe repair and the other in new work.

Be carefully working with the cutters if your not familiar with them, specially if they are dull they will chew up your work and chances are the shoe get ripped out of your hand. If any of that happens make sure you NEVER to try to hold on, let the shoe go and KEEP YOUR HANDS CLEAR OF THE CUTTERS. It happens to all that work with these cutters, they every so often will latch on to your work and pull it out your hands.
I do not mean to scare you or make you afraid of this tool, it is a great tool to have but you have to be aware and careful around tools like this. Your hand are to precious to risk injuring.

On the machine you have a cutter sharpening tool build in. From the picture I can not tell if it would work as is or if you need a new sharpening stone. It's located next to you naumbkeg and probably runs on the same axis as your top cutter.
It is a sharpening stone and the bar that sits in front of it, attaching to the machine below is to set your angle. It's adjustable to the left and right and forward and back. The idea is when it's set correctly you take your cutter and slide it up and down the bar, sharpening the cutting service. I marked the side to sharpen on your picture here.
4947.jpg

Excuse my lack of terminology, I know how it works but don't know all the correct English names for the parts. You should hear me on the phone when I need something from a machine supplier: “the thing that is connected but is removable from the other thing that looks like the thing that you use to sell to.... ” Image

Your top lift cutter seems to have the wrong size cutter in it. The cutter should only be slightly smaller than the metal ring that is suspended from above. You can adjust this to set the depth of the cut compared to the heel your guiding the metal ring around. Great if you make women's shoes with leather wrapped wooden heels, not much use for anything else unless you do shoe repair.

Depending on where you picked up the machine from you may want to take the dust bag and wash it, if I remember well on the Sutton it comes off quite easy. Wash it inside out and use a laundry mat commercial machine, or SWMBO will make you sleep in the garage. Image

Rob
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Re: Tools of the Trade

#1042 Post by romango »

Robert,

Thanks for the great advise. I will definitely be careful about fingers.

Can you tell from these pictures if my griding wheel is still usable? It seems pretty good. Also, am I trying to align angle 'a' flush with wheel face 'c' and then move the cutter wheel up and down against it as arrow 'd'? There is a little post at 'b'. This holds the cutter at a particular tooth, relative to the bar it is on. This made me think that 'e' was the motion required, not 'd', as 'd' would lift the cutter off the post. Any thoughts on that?
4949.jpg
4950.jpg
4951.jpg
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Re: Tools of the Trade

#1043 Post by dw »

Robert, Rick,

The top lift cutter seems OK. That shield is adjustable up and down and back and forth. All you need is that the shield be properly adjusted right at the bottom where you will be trimming. My old Landis has the same set up.

What is the wrong size, is the shield for the sole trimmer. No part of the blade should be larger than the shield. You can purchase I thik three or four different sizes of shield.

If the sharpening set up is anywhere close to what was standard on finishers for many years, you should be able to make adjustments to the post and so forth--changing approach angles and distance--so that the cutters will just barely touch the grindstone when you turn the cutter into the stone. And touch flush all across the face.

Of course, if the cutters have been improperly sharpened you may have to re-face them.

The reason I mention this, is that for someone who doesn't know, it might be better to purchase a brand new carbide (won't need much sharpening ever, if at all) trimmer in say a size 14 (a good size for trimming leather soles) to get a sense of how the rest should be handled. The one in the bottom photo is nearly junk as best as I can determine.

Now, as for how to sharpen...you have the trimmer mounted correctly. The trimmer itself is turned counter-clockwise into the grindstone. Don't try to lift the trimmer and/or move it up and down. Just touch the face at "B" to the stone. Just clean that "under" surface, and move on. Try to appy the same pressure for the same duration to each tooth. If you need a second pass, it is better than trying to sharpen every tooth a lot all at once.

Hope this helps...

Tight Stitches
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Re: Tools of the Trade

#1044 Post by dw »

Rick,

BTW, I have to agree with Robert, the tirmmer is a tough nut to crack and you need to be careful around it...with your work too. If the trimmers are sharpened improperly and/or you're not using it correctly, it will grab your shoe right out of your hands, take a bite out of the side of the sole and throw it on the floor.

I always wet the edge of my soles before trimming and I always keep the edge of the sole moving towards me. Never turn the sole into the trimmer without drawing it towards yourself. This is especially critical around the toe.

Tight Stitches
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Re: Tools of the Trade

#1045 Post by romango »

Sound like you're saying the shield (arrow) is too small. I wondered about this. Also, if sharpening is not producing good results, a new carbide blade will put me in business.
4953.jpg
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relferink

Re: Tools of the Trade

#1046 Post by relferink »

Rick,

The angel of the pictures is not great, If you can shoot one from the way you look at it when you work with it from the top. (along the length of the cutting stone and the grooves of the cutter) I'm also working from memory since my Jackmaster does not have a build in sharpener. Someone else with a machine like this may be able to confirm or correct me as appropriate. (you won't hurt my feelings - or at least not very muchImage)

I like my sharpening stone mounted the other way, convex side out to the right. I use the convex side to sharpen. I don't use the collar to hold the cutter and by hand move in direction D. I do not move in direction E. I do not want to take the chance that by moving in direction E I change the angle slightly from one tooth to the next.

I also have the sharpening stone go much further to the center of the cutter. (with the collar on it you can't do that) On this old cutter that came with my machine I indicated with red how I like to sharpen. The cutter will be sharper for it since the angle is larger at the cutting edge.
4955.jpg

DW is right to sharpen a little at a time, once you try to do to much in one pass you'll burn the steel and the cutter is trashed.

I would replace the sharpening stone since it seems to have quite some wear on the edges. Hard to judge from the pictures how much. Sometimes the black marks on it indicate that it has been used incorrectly and if the pours of the stone are filled with junk it is more likely to heat up the steel, burn your cutter and destroy it.

I think the cutter you have in these pictures is good for sharpening practice but not to use. It's been sharpened to much and it's getting worn, you'd like to see the width of the teeth to be larger than the air gaps in between. The angle is also such that even when sharpened it still won't be very sharp.

If you can spare the cash for a carbide cutter that's the way to go. It's my understanding that you can't sharpen them yourself. I have not tried it myself as of yet but I'll be sure to let you know when I'm ready to make that mistake. (all in the name of education)

Just my opinion, your millage may vary.

I never tried wetting my sole edge before. DW, What do you find to be the benefit of that?

Rob

PS just saw your next post, yes the guard is to small, if you are not careful you can cut into the shoe. I'm also not crazy about the spring loaded guard on the other side (not sure what the appropriate name is). They also make the machine noisy since it rattles around as the machine runs, there is to much play in it but that's just my humble opinion.
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Re: Tools of the Trade

#1047 Post by dw »

Rob,

Well, depending on the leather you use...even with the carbide trimmer...sometimes you can actually burn the leather a bit. Some tanners use sugar in the final processes, I'm not sure why but the S&R Italian leather has a lot of sugar in it. You'll get this caramel coloured "crust." (You can get it with a naumkeg, too. I wet heel blocks and sole for the final sanding with a worn 120 grit naumkeg "paper" both to eliminate the burn and to simultaneously burnish the leather.)

But if you wet the sole edge, before you trim, you'll not only eliminate the sugar burn but you'll get a much cleaner cut especially around the wires. That means that they'll be more prominent and set better with the burnishing iron.

I never thought about turning the grindstone around. Or moving the trimmer up and down either. Just the way I was taught, I guess. The old finishers that had a sharpener mounted (and we used to have a dedicated sharpener in one shop I worked in) had some sort of spring loaded indexer. So that the trimmer was held steady--you couldn't turn it, but you couldn't raise and lower it either. All you could do was pull it back away from the grindstone. And when you pulled it back, you moved the trimmer one tooth and then pushed it back into the stone again.

Tight Stitches
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firefly

Re: Tools of the Trade

#1048 Post by firefly »

All,

I was really excited yesterday to finally get my 5 in 1. It has already made short work of cutting that 1/4" soling leather.

Can anyone tell me if they have seen one of these and if so could I possibly get some sort of manual?

Thanks,

Mark

(Message edited by firefly on April 22, 2007)
firefly

Re: Tools of the Trade

#1049 Post by firefly »

Sorry,

I had to edit I forgot to blowdown the image.

Here is another try:
4959.jpg


Thanks,

Mark
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relferink

Re: Tools of the Trade

#1050 Post by relferink »

Thanks DW, I'll give that a try, My gauge is when it burns the cutter or sandpaper is dull or I'm going to fast.
It makes sense that it's the sugars in the leather that cause the caramel type crust and once the leather burns it won't accept dye and wax very well.

Mark,
I've never seen a manual for a 5 in 1, any brand. It's very straight forward, every part, screw and spring has a function, playing around with them is a great way to figure out what the different parts do and the different adjustments possible.

Rob
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