Through the Mists of Time...

[mephit]

Well, the shoes I'm working on are progressing, albeit somewhat slowly, as I have to dig time out of my work schedule in which to do crafty type things. I've got the body and sole (heh) of the first shoe done and wonder of wonders, it both fits well and is pretty comfortable! The insole/outsole with intersticial cork layer was a ring-tailed son of a b**** to make in such a way as to hide stitching, but I managed to pull it off by doing a flesh-edge stitch in through the top of the sole (flesh side up) and out the side. It was pretty easy until I got to the very last few stitches. The last one took me about 10 minutes to get the wire bristle through. Fun!

Now comes the next part. What I'm planning on making are calf-height boots, probably laced. First question, then. Would boots like this have had a tongue? It certainly would make them a bit more water resistant as well as less likely to show the hose through the lacing. Also, would making the leg out of two pieces of leather, sewn up the back to more closely fit the wearer be even vaguely period? Thanks!

[marc]

Some had tongues, although the side lacing ones don't seem to have had them. These should be sewn up the edge of the tongue, in to the leg of the boot (generally speaking).

Piecing together bits of leather is perfectly medieval (I tend not to do it, but that's personal preference). That being said, just doing one with a back seam to make it more fitted would be a little different. So vaguely period? Sure. Common practice, not so much

Marc

[mephit]

I'm not sure I follow what you mean by "sewn up the edge". Do you mean the edge of the tongue sewn to the edge of the leg? Are we talking some tunnel or edge-flesh stitch? I was kind of thinking I'd wrap the tongue around the edge and sew through all three layers to give a bit of edge flourish and additional strength to the lacing. Or is this too modern? I've decided to do front lace rather than side lace, since it is easier to do with the pattern I used for the vamp.

As to the back seam, oh well. I guess it'll be another part of these things that isn't quite period. Heh. I've already started on the first one and it went together really well. I like the way it looks, so I'm going to run with it. If I can borrow a digital camera, I'll post pics of the first boot once its done.

[marc]

I'd like to see them, please.

Ok, assume an V shape in the front, that you will eventually lace shut. The tongue is sewn up the side with a bit of a whip stich, if I'm interpreting it right. You don't actually see the stitching on the outside of the boot.

The decoration scheme where people show a whipped stitch, or blanket stitch along the exposed edge is, as far as I know, modern.

Marc

[mephit]

I'll see what I can do. I'll probably have to borrow my boss' digicam.

I was kind of thinking of using the tongue as an edge-binding, not necessarily having a whip-stitch visible or anything like that. Though it may be better to use a different piece of leather (something lighter weight like a glove leather) as a separate edge-binding.

[marc]

I'm sure it will work fine. I'll be interested to see what you come up with

Marc

[mephit]

Frankly, so am I! This is turning out very different from what I'd originally intended (knee-height, side-buckle, pointed toe boots). Very interesting project nonetheless.

[mephit]

OK. I have pictures! (And there was much rejoicing. yay.) I apologise in advance that this post is a little long, but I felt like showing off a little. (Heh.)

First off, here's a pic of one of the lasts and it's shover. The shover is just water-formed leather.

3230.jpg

Next is the boot itself.

3231.jpg

3232.jpg

3233.jpg

3234.jpg

Comments?

(Message edited by Mephit on October 13, 2004)

[dagon]

Most excellent! Any chance you might be willing to show a side shot of that last? And the boot from the front with the laces opened a bit?

What size is the boot?

-Mitch

[mephit]

Most excellent! Any chance you might be willing to show a side shot of that last? And the boot from the front with the laces opened a bit?

Thanks! I'll see what I can do, but it might take some time. I'll have to get some free time on the scanner at work once I get photos developed. I'm still kinda old-tech when it comes to photography (Odd since I partly make a living working in Photoshop)

What size is the boot?

Umm... My size? I made the lasts to my own measurements. My foot is around 10.5US or so.

[marc]

Very interesting. Thank you for sharing. How are the cork soles attached (I can't tell from the photo)?

Since it's a mistake I've been making, and since Al's off goofing off in Czechland this week, I'll have to make a small correction for him - that's not a shover (shovers go down all the way to the toe), it's an instep leather (in know -- pick, pick, pick )

Again, very nicely done.

Marc

[mephit]

Very interesting. Thank you for sharing. How are the cork soles attached (I can't tell from the photo)?

The cork is sandwiched between the visible outsole and an inner sole with the welt connecting the two. The upper, welt and inner sole were put together as per a standard turn-shoe. The welt was then sewn to the edge of the outsole, holding the cork inside. The stitch was an edge-flesh running through the upper (that is, next to the cork above) flesh surface of the outsole. If you look closely, you can just barely make out the stitch running along the bottom of the welt.

Since it's a mistake I've been making, and since Al's off goofing off in Czechland this week, I'll have to make a small correction for him - that's not a shover (shovers go down all the way to the toe), it's an instep leather (in know -- pick, pick, pick :-) )

I'll file that away. Thanks!

[marc]

*very* nicely done

Marc

[das]

Michael,

Marc was right--I've been over in the Czech Republic. Home now, but still jet-lagging.

Very respectable work on both the last and the boot, especially that "rand" covering the cork-sole, which is a bugger to do neatly as you have done. Your sole-shape is gracefully formed too.

First off I'm not a "medieval" shoe person, but I do have a few questions:

1) is the pattern for the uppers style and sole-shape based on a particular antique boot?

2) was there evidence for that "X" lacing? From what little I know, medieval stuff usually used a spiral lace, with only one metal tip?

3) Marc was right on "shover" [goes to the toe], versus "instep leather" [only covers the instep], but that's just a niggly terminology point

I don't know how many pairs you've made so far, but you're doing well enough to make it look very easy. Great job!

[marc]

If I may, this is not a correction of anything said, but a clarification on some terms - specifically rands versus welts. In the archeo-literature you will generally see "rand' used to refer to the leather strip between the upper and the sole on a turn shoe. These are referred to as welts when they are attached to the outer sole (even though in "turned welt construction" the actual position between the upper and the sole hasn't really changed any).

Historically the strip was called in medieval English a welt or a rivet/rives. The rand was (among other less relevant uses) a strip that came away from the upper/sole seam and either roled under and was braced, or enclosed a sole like the cork sole mentioned above). I can not document a medieval term for the Rand at this point (Rand is documented as a 16th/17th cnetury term in this context).

Just mentioning it - another piddling terminology thing (that I figured might need some clarification for the

Marc

[das]

I tend to talk in "17th-18th" century shoemaker-ese, not medieval. And as you say, the "rand" is/was 1) the rolled-under intermediate strip the sole's stitched to, 2) the rolled-under leather strip that covers the sides and holds a thick sole insert, like the cork thingie, and 3) the top surface of the outer sole around the heel-seat. The latter definition is the one that has stuck with us to today, and is also used for a layer of something [usually nylon] applied to the top surface of the outer sole around the heel-seat to cover the flesh of the sole leather...blah, blah, blah, etc., etc..

Another case of same word=different meanings over time

[marc]

My -suspicion- is that in the Middle Ages, they called "the rolled-under leather strip that covers the sides and holds a thick sole insert, like the cork thingie" a welt, or something like that, but I have no proof at all for it, and honestly it serves my purposes better to use the Rand term to make the differentiation, at least until something better comes up

Hey, as long as you know what I mean when I tell you to take your prick in hand and ferk, then yerk your lingle

Actually, the major differences between the Medieval and the era you deal with are (so far):

Vamp = Forefoot, Wampe/Vamp
Upper = Overleather (and apparently Quarters, although I only have one source referring to the entire upper as the quarters)
Quarters = Heel

Marc

[das]

Marc,

============
"Hey, as long as you know what I mean when I tell you to take your prick in hand and ferk, then yerk your lingle "
============

Come on, there's women and kids on here

[marc]

Is it MY fault that you have a dirty mind? Take your awl and pierce the leather rapidly and pull your thread tight. That's what shoemaking's all about - ferk and yerk, ferk and yerk...

Marc

[tomo]

Firkin heck Marc,
that's pretty clever.
More power to y'awl.
T.

[mephit]

Marc was right--I've been over in the Czech Republic. Home now, but still jet-lagging.

What brought you way over there? That must have been an interesting trip!

Very respectable work on both the last and the boot, especially that "rand" covering the cork-sole, which is a bugger to do neatly as you have done. Your sole-shape is gracefully formed too.

Thanks. That rand was a "bugger". In fact, I think I described it as a "Ring-tailed son of a B*tch". Heh. I have to admit, I cheated a little. The last few stitches just would not pull as tight as I wanted them to, and the leather was puckering away from the cork, so I glued it all down right at the junction of the beginning and end of the rand. I then slathered the entire rand with shoe-goo to help protect the stitching and keep some of the water out. That's why it's so glossy looking.

First off I'm not a "medieval" shoe person, but I do have a few questions:

1) is the pattern for the uppers style and sole-shape based on a particular antique boot?

Not one specific boot, but several from Marc's website as well as late 14th, early 15th century painting details I was able to find. It does cheat a bit since it has a cork sole insert, slightly raised heel and a tongue. According to Marc (who would definitely know better than I!) all these features are a bit later than early 15th century or at the least very rare at that time. But I'm a wuss and like comfortable shoes with a bit of a heel, so I decided to fudge things just a bit.

2) was there evidence for that "X" lacing? From what little I know, medieval stuff usually used a spiral lace, with only one metal tip?

On that, I have no idea. I laced it as I'm used to lacing, that's all. I had no idea there was such a thing as spiral lacing. Can you describe? How would you tie it if there's only one end? Where does the other one go?

I don't know how many pairs you've made so far, but you're doing well enough to make it look very easy. Great job!

Thanks muchly. Actually, that's the first complete turn-shoe I've ever done. I still need to finish the other boot! I've done a fair amount of leatherwork and done moccasins and moc boots before, but never the medieval style. As to whether it was easy or not, I started this project back in April! Seven months later and I've managed to make a boot. Well, hopefully the second one will go much easier. I did some pretty bone-headed things on this first one (like turning the shoe and finishing the sole before sewing on the leg part [what is that called, anyway?]). Unfortunately, I can't find any of my patterns anymore! Gah! At least I already had the in-sole, out-sole, vamp and heel stiffener cut out. I just have to recreate the leg, tongue, and rand. Grrr.....

[das]

Michael,

About every three years since 1994 they've held the "Shoes In History" conference in Zlin, CZ--the home town of the Bata Shoe Co. and the Czech shoe museum [mostly antiques from c.1588-20th century, with some ethnographic stuff, with some questionable repros of medieval stuff on display]. Shoe museum-types, researchers, restorers, and other specialists gather for two solid days of papers on the latest shoe-research, etc. Everything from archaeology, to recent high-fashion exhibitions. It's a great venue for "East meets West". Friendly folks, good food and wine, and folk dancing.

On the "rand"/"platform cover" leather thingie around the cork, a bit of advice: smear the sides of the cork with paste and pull the leather cover over it tight and smooth like lasting uppers. Then "brace the loose edges underneath by sewing across zig-zag fashion with a single thread to hold it. Afterwards, put on the outer sole and do your stitching. That ought to hold it nice and smooth. If you cut it to overlap a bit where that vertical join is, and skive it, usually you can stick that down with paste as well so it's nearly invisible

Shoe-goo=no comment

So it's loosely "inspired by several originals", just not a true repro? I guess you've tried making/wearing exact repros, and don't find them comfortable? If you wear them on medieval surfaces only, I'd bet they'd be okay.

Marc can jump in anytime here, but I am under the impression that most medieval lacing of that type was done by spiraling a lace, knotted at the bottom to hold it, up the boot, tying it in a half-hitch knot, and that's it. The 1770s "high-low" laced boots we copy were still done that way too. I don't think "X" lacing gets very common on boots until well into the 1800s.

Well, for your first turn-shoe, you're doing great. Hope the other one matches. And don't worry about the speed--that only comes with time. Concentrate on neat, tight, seams, and refined finish work. Hint: if you can't do the whole pair in a few days of straight working, at least do all of your uppers closing at once, last them together, sew the soles together, so the pair goes together roughly at the same time. With months in between operations, it's hard to make things match otherwise.

[marc]

My email time is kind of short today since I have to get ready to drive to Wisconsin tommorrow

There are two ways that I know of to do "spiral lacing", and I can't say for certain that either was used on medieval shoes since there are no extant examples that I know of with shoes that were laced and were found still laced. In the easy form, one end of the lace is knotted somehow at one of the bottom lacing holes, then spiral wound through the holes and tied off at the top. The second way is to take the same bottom end, make it longer and pull it behind to the opposing hole at the top of the laces and tie it to the end that's gone through the holes. (This latter, you will recall seeing on some modern shoes in the shoe stores.

At best we just have some illustrations that show what can only be some form of spiral lacing (sometimes called ladder lacing).

As for making exact repros, versus "inspired by" historical originals - I'm going to get really pedantic here for a minute. If we even assume that "exact repro" means something other than a reproduction of pile of archaeological leather, and accept that the interpretation which is needed to create a model of what that pile of archaeological leather looks like means its something more than just a Probably accurate reproduction, we are still left with the problem in terms. In short, without some specific questions answered that have not yet been, at best, even the most accurate reproduction can claim is to be "inspired by". "Exact repro" may be used as if it means "probable accurate reproduction", but that's not what the words mean (don't even get me started on the misuse of the term "authentic" versus "accurate" ).

Using that definition (Exact repro = probably accurate reproduction"), there are still very few people doing that sort of work (accurate leathers, correct last shapes, most likely techniques, and so on). There are more now than there were ten years ago, but I wouldn't assume right off that Michael has had the opportunity to try an accurate reproduction, and I certainly can't fault him for that (I know you weren't intending to sound critical but it seemed to head that way on my first reading). The businesses that are currently selling "medieval shoes" run a range from "pretty good" (i.e. there are some problems that like ten people in the world will even notice) to truly excrebal. OTOH, even the bad shoes are getting people out of worse modern shoes.

What he's come up with here isn't common, in the record, but it was done (Goubitz' winter shoes, and of course a batch of ecclesiastical shoes), and I'll be interested to learn how they work out.

If you have to respond to this, you might want to hold off and do it in person, since I won;y be reading this group again until next week.

Marc

[mephit]

About every three years since 1994 they've held the "Shoes In History" conference in Zlin, CZ--the home town of the Bata Shoe Co. and the Czech shoe museum [mostly antiques from c.1588-20th century, with some ethnographic stuff, with some questionable repros of medieval stuff on display]. Shoe museum-types, researchers, restorers, and other specialists gather for two solid days of papers on the latest shoe-research, etc. Everything from archaeology, to recent high-fashion exhibitions. It's a great venue for "East meets West". Friendly folks, good food and wine, and folk dancing.

Very cool. Perhaps someday I'll not be a poor printer with no time off and can travel more. It would be most interesting to see places like that.

On the "rand"/"platform cover" leather thingie around the cork, a bit of advice: smear the sides of the cork with paste and pull the leather cover over it tight and smooth like lasting uppers. Then "brace the loose edges underneath by sewing across zig-zag fashion with a single thread to hold it. Afterwards, put on the outer sole and do your stitching. That ought to hold it nice and smooth. If you cut it to overlap a bit where that vertical join is, and skive it, usually you can stick that down with paste as well so it's nearly invisible

I'm a bit confused about this. You said to brace the rand after gluing it to the cork by "sewing across zig-zag fashion". You mean across the sole from left to right, etc? I'm assuming this would be left just until the paste/glue is dry which holds the rand to the cork and then removed before attaching the outsole, correct?

Shoe-goo=no comment :-)

Hey, I said I was perfectly willing to cheat. Anything which makes these suckers last longer without standing out is fine by me. I enjoy leatherworking and woodworking and I enjoy learning the process, but one of the main reasons I'm making these is because I can't afford to pay someone else to do it for me. If I have to rebuild them every few months or so, I've hardly saved myself any money.

So it's loosely "inspired by several originals", just not a true repro? I guess you've tried making/wearing exact repros, and don't find them comfortable? If you wear them on medieval surfaces only, I'd bet they'd be okay.

Correct, it's a loosely inspired plausible interpretation. As to trying out accurate reproductions, I haven't, simply because I havn't found any I could afford. See the above reasons (Heh). I have worn moccasins quite a bit, however. I used to do Native American Dance in the Boy Scouts Order of the Arrow when I was a kid. When I was very little (5 or so) the family did Revolutionary War reinactment at Fort Massac, I did a little Civil War stuff in college, and now SCA. I've come to appreciate comfortable footwear. :-)

Marc can jump in anytime here, but I am under the impression that most medieval lacing of that type was done by spiraling a lace, knotted at the bottom to hold it, up the boot, tying it in a half-hitch knot, and that's it. The 1770s "high-low" laced boots we copy were still done that way too. I don't think "X" lacing gets very common on boots until well into the 1800s.

Interesting. I was aware of none of this. Thanks!

Well, for your first turn-shoe, you're doing great. Hope the other one matches. And don't worry about the speed--that only comes with time. Concentrate on neat, tight, seams, and refined finish work. Hint: if you can't do the whole pair in a few days of straight working, at least do all of your uppers closing at once, last them together, sew the soles together, so the pair goes together roughly at the same time. With months in between operations, it's hard to make things match otherwise.

Thanks. I'm just glad the stitching isn't very clear in those photos! I know I should have worked on both simultaneously and normally I would have, but in this case it was a calculated risk. This one was as much an experiment as anything else. I wanted to make sure it worked before I blew leather on the other one. It doesn't even match what I'd intended to make which were side=buckle rather than front lace. I didn't figure out I couldn't do the side-buckle with my current pattern until I had the vamp and sole finished. Now that I have the design firmly in my mind and the physical boot in front of me, I shouldn't have too much trouble making the second match closely enough for quick visual inspection.

[mephit]

There are two ways that I know of to do "spiral lacing", and I can't say for certain that either was used on medieval shoes since there are no extant examples that I know of with shoes that were laced and were found still laced. In the easy form, one end of the lace is knotted somehow at one of the bottom lacing holes, then spiral wound through the holes and tied off at the top. The second way is to take the same bottom end, make it longer and pull it behind to the opposing hole at the top of the laces and tie it to the end that's gone through the holes. (This latter, you will recall seeing on some modern shoes in the shoe stores.

At best we just have some illustrations that show what can only be some form of spiral lacing (sometimes called ladder lacing).

I think I may try one or the other of these out if for no other reason than it should look interesting and give even more of a visual differentiation from modern shoes. One question, however. Would the lacing holes have been set across from each other as they are now, or staggered?

Using that definition (Exact repro = probably accurate reproduction"), there are still very few people doing that sort of work (accurate leathers, correct last shapes, most likely techniques, and so on). There are more now than there were ten years ago, but I wouldn't assume right off that Michael has had the opportunity to try an accurate reproduction, and I certainly can't fault him for that (I know you weren't intending to sound critical but it seemed to head that way on my first reading). The businesses that are currently selling "medieval shoes" run a range from "pretty good" (i.e. there are some problems that like ten people in the world will even notice) to truly excrebal. OTOH, even the bad shoes are getting people out of worse modern shoes.

Don't worry about it Al. I wasn't offended or bothered by any of it. Criticism is part of what allows us to learn and grow.

As to things like accurate leathers and so on, can you even get alum tawed goatskin? I freely admit that the boots I'm making right now are using crome-tanned leather. it was simply the least expensive viable option.

Oh, and Marc? Leave my combat boots out of it, OK? :-D

What he's come up with here isn't common, in the record, but it was done (Goubitz' winter shoes, and of course a batch of ecclesiastical shoes), and I'll be interested to learn how they work out.

So glad to know I managed not to totally screw up the plausibility of my boots. :-D What are these ecclesiastical shoes to which you refer?

If you have to respond to this, you might want to hold off and do it in person, since I won't be reading this group again until next week.

No no! Feel free to respond here. I'd be interested if no one else is.