Shoe machines

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tmattimore

Re: Shoe machines

#51 Post by tmattimore »

tom
I would check with harris at pilgrim on the availability of spare parts they may be extremly difficult to obtain. I have a friend who swears by them but he has about a thousand pounds of spares. Almost any thing that can break or wear on a landis is available.
Tmattimore
Ant Stott

Re: Shoe machines

#52 Post by Ant Stott »

Hi

I have a second hand Pedersen Outsole stitcher model 308, which is causing me a few headache's!

I don't have a manual for the machine and was wondering if anyone knew where i could find one, hopefully on the net so i can download it :-)

Thanks for any help

Ant.
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Re: Shoe machines

#53 Post by dw »

Ant,

Welcome to the Crispin Colloquy. I really don't have an answer for you. Pederson is a good machine but not that common in the States.You might try calling Pilgrim Machine--do a "keyword" search for "Pilgrim Machine" on this Forum to get a phone number and address (I don't have that info on this machine). The guy you want to talk to is Neil, I think, and if nothing else he can maybe point you in the right direction.

Good Luck

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Re: Shoe machines

#54 Post by jake »

Ant,

I don't have the catalogue at hand this moment, but I'll check tomorrow. I believe I have someone who handles those machines.

Until tomorrow.......
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Re: Shoe machines

#55 Post by jake »

Ant,

I would try the following people:

Campbell-Bosworth Company
Pilgrim Shoe Machine Company

Or call International Shoe Equipment, Inc. @ 888-303-0078. Ask to speak to Kees Kalb.

Hope this helps.
tom knowlton

Re: Shoe machines

#56 Post by tom knowlton »

Thanks Tattimore for the information, however , I ended up getting ahold of a Landis 12 E. It does ok so far. Also, If anyone knows about a finisher made by the Progressive Machine Co. Minniapolis, I need some help in putting it together as I bought it all disassembled. It is a flat belt drive type of machine and has one 1 h.p. motor. Thanks again everyone for such open sharing of knowledge.
tomo

Re: Shoe machines

#57 Post by tomo »

Does anyone know anything about an outsole stitcher called a No.2 Victor it was made by Whitfield, Hodgson & Brough(?) Ltd in Kettering UK.
The friend of mine that owns it said that the thread is run through a hot wax bath.
I think the machine was originally used by the orthotics department in a local hospital here.
Are they still made? Or does anyone know anything about the machines?

More power t' y'awl.
Tom
tomo

Re: Shoe machines

#58 Post by tomo »

For those interested in parts or a supplier, I received the following email about the Victor No.2 Outsoler

"The Victor
was one of the very few outsole stitcher ever designed specifically for the
repair trade and the small shoemaker.

Although WH&B of Lawson Street, Kettering was bought out by the BUSMC in the
early 1900's (I think), their purpose was to gain more casting capacity
which was available at Kettering and they largely left the company alone to
pursue it own path. WH&B was probably the major UK manufacturer of
machinery for the shoe repair and small shoemaker trades and their hey-day
was just before and just after the Second World War. They produced a whole
range of equipment from all type of heavy stitchers through finishing
machines and down to hand operated bench machines.

WH&B modified the machine about the mid 60's
and reintroduced it as the Model 75. This was basically the same head but
with a fabricated straight-sided column stand as opposed to the cast,
tapered one of the original. I believe the idea was to contain the cost.

The company was sold to Standard Engineering about 5 or 6 years ago. They
are now called Standard Cressal Ltd. Evington Valley Road, Leicester LE6
5LZ. This is now the only major shoe repair machinery supplier in the UK
and I understand they sell a full range of spare parts including those for
the Victor. I have seen Victor Stitchers in various parts of the old British
Commonwealth and a few in the US. I am not sure if Standard still actually
make and sell new machines. I doubt it.

It is a good machine and very adaptable to variations in work, much more so
than most outsole stitchers which are all derived from the early models
designed for the first footwear factories. The factories all moved over to
higher speed machines in the 1920's and 30's but some of the earlier models
were adopted by the repair suppliers.

You are absolutely right in that the Victor has a heated waxpot for the
bobbin thread, together with a heated bobbin case. The means the thread
goes into the stitch with hot wax on it and only cools down within the
soling material. Really traditional shoemaking."

It's contributions like this, and peoples generosity and willingness to pass on their knowledge that make learning so much fun and kindle the fires of desire.

A lifetime ago -seems like it anyway - I approached a collar maker here in this country to see if he would show me some of the finer points of collar making. After-all Haslucks book, although detailed, can't replace real life experience. I offered to pay him, supply any materials; whatever he wanted. His reply was "I spent 6 years doing an apprenticeship. If you think I'm going to teach you in six days you've got another thought coming!"

He was 86 years old. I hope he rests in peace.

More power to y'awl
Tom.
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Re: Shoe machines

#59 Post by das »

Tom,

Great post. Thanks.

Here in the US I've never seen or heard of a Victor. And even tramping around in the UK, they've eluded my notice. It sounds very interesting. Can you post some photos so we can see this beast?

All the smaller repair machines I've seen here, were Frobana'Gritzner (needle, separate dog-feed) hand-cranked, distributed through New York City someplace in the '20s-'30s(?). Carl Lichte in Texas turned up around three of these out west, oh, maybe 14 years ago. I bought mine off him. It had a gas jet converted to electricity for heating the bobbin (thread was pre-waxed), as well as for the top thread (wax pot). I did buy a c.WWI Junker & Ruh (needle-feed) sole-stitcher off a friend in Gloucestershire for 20 Pounds UK--the lever-operated stitcher. This had a little spirit lamp you'd place under the bobbin to keep the waxed thread warm. I wrapped it in dirty tee-shirts, and carried it home in my carry-on luggage. Doubt if they let us on a plane with a shoe machine these days. Pedersen of Denmark were/are repro'ing this very same machine--last retail price I saw, likewise 14 years ago (Goetz catalogue) was around $4,500 US!

Unlike the high-speed "Goodyear" type curved needle stitchers, both of these machines stitch the shoe right way up, piercing down from the welt, so the stitches are a bit neater I think. The needles have chisel-points which emulate the slits made by a stitching awl.

Also, the last Goetz catalogue I saw still listed needles for both the Frobana and the Junker & Ruh, and Pedersen parts fit the old Junker & Ruh too. These must still be in service in Europe. Olaf Goubitz (see HCC roster) knew a shoe-repair parts firm in Holland that had original NOS parts for both, if you go that way.

Good luck on your endeavor. Nothing makes better good old-fashioned shoes than the good old fashioned machines. And who needs high-speed stitchers?
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Re: Shoe machines

#60 Post by dw »

Tom,

Regarding the collar maker friend of yours...

I have been very fortunate in my life, I have lucked upon people who were generous with me and willing to teach. Some charged me, some gave from a love of the Trade. But your experience is and was all too common. Many of the older fellows grew up during the Depression when jobs were hard to find. Survival depended upon marketing yourself as a unique commodity. It didn't pay to share knowledge.

But the downside was that because many passed on without ever having passed on their knowledge, the knowledge began to disappear.

When I got into this business there was virtually no one willing to teach. At least it wasn't common knowledge who they were and where they were to be found. In fact, there was a whole segment of the Trade that considered itself...oh, I don't know...somehow separate from the broader traditions of boot and shoemaking.

I flatter myself (somewhat tongue in cheek) for having been a part...even if only a small part...of turning those attitudes around a bit. Since I began teaching, since I began writing, since the Colloquy was founded, there has been a renewed interest in preserving and passing this information to the next generation...or at least those people who are interested enough to pay for the info (either way it is a net gain). In any event, I do believe, that in my lifetime that downward trend has been reversed. Whether it came too late or not, only time will tell. Thinking about it, it's probably less me than my generation. I began teaching about twenty years ago, the Guild was formed about twenty years ago--...and most of its "founding fathers" are of an age.

Either way, it's a net gain... Image

Just some musings....

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Re: Shoe machines

#61 Post by das »

Echoing what DW's expressed so well, I had the good fortune of finding a master who took me on as an apprentice. He'd started in the 1950s, and was able to pick the brains of geezers from the generation before, here and in his native England. His master, Frederische Engleke, who died before I could meet him, family's bootmaking firm in Germany made boots for the Kiser! Largely I've been "taken in" kindly by old hands too, but I recall one guy I approached early on. His father (in his 80s) thought it was so wonderful having this young fellow interested in the trade--he was helpful, taught me tricks and gave me the tools he humped over to NY from Italy in 1912, etc. His son (doing repair only), however--probably 40-something in 1973--told me once, "why don't you go learn this trade where I learned it...in prison!". He meant it too. Not exactly a chip off the old block there.

I think it's only that middle generation--the Depression-era kids--that have the attitude you spoke of. Their fathers knew better, like us, there's more work than any one guy could ever do, and several logs burn more brightly than one. I guess we're just turning things back the way they were, which is needful if we're even going to have a trade in another 25 or 50 years.

==============
"the Guild was formed about twenty years ago--...and most of its "founding fathers" are of an age."
==============

Hey DW, I resemble that remark! But just remember, no matter how old you get, I'll still be ten years younger *bwahahahaha* Image
tmattimore

Re: Shoe machines

#62 Post by tmattimore »

One of the great satisfactions I have is the young people I hire. Running a semi hand made production shop I hire part time help, mostly students from the university. I always tell them that they get a dollar an hour raise when they make their own shoes that look and fit well. Few if any will ever become full time shoemakers but when they move on in life they will have learned what little of the old ways I can teach and an appreciation for for a good pair of shoes. Hopefully they will trade with the next generation of custom makers. Too many skills of the hand have all but dissapeared and I feel a duty to pass on anything I have learned.
Tom Mattimore
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Re: Shoe machines

#63 Post by dw »

Without getting too florid here, I am struck by one other thought...there are people who can teach you the mechanics of a thing. And that in itself is a great gift. Had I never met Mike Ives, had he been as stingy and closed off as some, who knows if I would ever have become a bootmaker?

But there are a few individuals you run across in your lifetime that can give you something far more precious. Sometimes without consciously trying.... And that is the love of, in this case, the Trade. It involves more than the knowledge of how to cut a pattern or stack a heel, instead it connects you to a community of like minded individuals that literally stretches back beyond reckoning. Shoe/boot making is truly an "honourable " Trade and the traditions (from the same root word, perhaps) and traditonal skills that we honour and that take secret delight in, are almost more important than the singular skills themselves, simply because they bind us together, from one generation to the next....generation after generation. And without overstating it, I think that partakes of, or is nearly the same thing, as being connected to the family of all human beings.

I have to tell you that the person who gave me that great gift, is ten years my junior, and one of the most respected scholars of shoemaking in this country...maybe the world. If I have never done it before, let me just say...

Thanks, Al.

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Re: Shoe machines

#64 Post by das »

Aw shucks...gosh, gee, jolly DW...

I'm flattered as hell you think such things. One newspaper accused me of being the leading authority in the US--and as Peterkin *was*, and I'm his heir apparent, I ought to not feel so bashful, but it's just not comfortable for me to toot my own horn. I'm glad if I've been a positive influence on you, but believe me, from where I'm sitting (amidst piles of papers that need to be filed, stacks of correspondence that need answering) I feel like I'm trying to play catch-up all the time. Hardly the wheezened old...er, um, young, well, younger than you, sage Image

You bet there's "time travel" involved. The coolest look I got one day, I was in the shop, and had just set one of my apprentices to doing his first bit of "mock round-closing" on an upper. On the way out the door I admonished him: "be aware that your hands are now doing something no one alive has done since 17__". The cool-factor of that was enough, you could have knocked him over with a feather. The smell of that wax I sent you--that's the smell of centuries rolled passed. That bite you get when your threads lock-up just right... Who says the past is "dead"?

Whatever magic you're getting out of traditional bootmaking, you're getting it directly from those "ghosts" you say are "at your shoulder", not me. When the thread's right, the wax is right, the rhythm is right, you enter "the zone". "The Zone" just is man...far out (any hippy smilies?).
shoestring

Re: Shoe machines

#65 Post by shoestring »

Boys I am a victim of learn it the way I got mine and belive it I thank you all for answering my questions.And sending me in directions that will get good results,and the questions will still be coming.The knowledge I have gained here is worth it's weight in gold and I will "Never" hold back from someone searching more light in this craft.And to let you in on a secret I often brag of the help I recieved here.Between an elderly shoe repair man that studied shoe making in trade school and what I have geather here I think I am in the ball park.My hat's off to you all and I will continue to seek help when needed.Thanks
Ed ,In South Carlina
bultsad

Re: Shoe machines

#66 Post by bultsad »

For those folks who own the Model C Ideal Clicking Machine, here is a valuable contact.
I recently broke my clicker and I called Aaron Bauman for a replacemant part. He had the part I needed and has in fact, virtually every part required for the old Model C.
He has also reprinted in large type and clear pictures the manual for this machine which he sells for a very reasonable price. I found him to be a fair and knowledgeable individual. His contact information is:
Aaron Bauman Leather Shop
3518 Muddy Pond Rd.
Monterey TN 38574
Shop 931-445-3234
House 931-445-3045
Fax 931-445-7179
Cell 931-265-3335

For those of you who cannot or will not work on your clicker, he will come to you if you pay travel expenses and time.

Jim
tomo

Re: Shoe machines

#67 Post by tomo »

Al
I'll try and post a picture of the Victor outsole stitcher shortly. We've had massive flooding all round our region over the last couple of weeks - something like 350 homes can't be lived in. Although our place is fine, my ISP has had water up their pipes or something, and have been rerouteing me through I don't know where so it takes ages to hook up. Plus we had some tech problems with the camera, the photos once we'd taken them, were going to be emailed to me so that I could post them, but I'll get it sorted.
Thanks for being so patient
Kind regards
and more power to y'awl
Tom.
George Ball

Re: Shoe machines

#68 Post by George Ball »

Hi, I, making sport shoes, and I need a machine that will sew with thick cord, possibly 48lb hemp cord, similar to Clarks Desert Boots has. I know someone who has a Landis curve sticher, Mod G, and says he thinks this will do it. The equipment is sitting out in the elements. Any opinions on this machine? What should I look for, such as wear, ect? Yours, G. Ball.
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Re: Shoe machines

#69 Post by das »

George,

Are you looking for a sole-stitcher per se, or just a heavy class machine? I'd pass up any machine that's been left out in the weather, except as a potential parts-machine. Keep an eye out on eBay for used shoe repair machines.

There are others that will sew with heavy thread, like harness machines [which won't stitch soles], but the Landis curved-needle machines are one-trick-ponies--they only go around soles. A Landis "G" is pretty old, the letter suffix runs in order of production. I use an "L" myself, and some use "ancient" "K" models, but anything alphabetically before that is going to be a real antique. I think the "L" came out right after WWII, so that tells you something about the "G".
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Re: Shoe machines

#70 Post by das »

George,

PS--log onto the Pilgrim Shoe Machines website and see if they even sell parts, needles, awls, etc. anymore for a Landis G. If not, run, do not walk, away from that one.
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Re: Shoe machines

#71 Post by dw »

George,

I'd echo Al about machines left out in the weather. But I have a Landis "F"which is the model before the "G" (funny how that works) and even though it was made just as they were getting ready to switch to the "G", it runs like a bare-foot babe on hot asphalt. Image I've had it for 25 years, never had to replace a part...knock on wood...and never had it miss a stitch for no good reason. I can drop 10 stitches-to-the-inch into a channel every time and close that channel up so that it's nearly invisible. In fact, if I want to take the time, I can fill the channel with press cement before closing and when I close it, and it dries it *is* invisible.

That said, do be careful. If you're new to this and you can't run it or see it running, pass on by, as Al suggests.

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George Ball

Re: Shoe machines

#72 Post by George Ball »

Hi, D.A. Thanks. See, I don't know anything about sewing machines, even though I'm very mechanically inclined. I don't know the purpose of each one unless I'm watching it perform. I need a sole sticher primarally. I do have a straight seam around the top of the shoe and up the back but you say it won't do that? Is that right? What machine that you can think of would do both and also that I'd stand a chance of picking up cheaply? I'm going to look at this thing, possibly today, with the thought that if we can oil it up and get it to do my soles the way I want, I'd nurse it along for a couple of years till I have the capital to get something better. The guy wants 600 bucks, but since it seems it was destined for the scrap iron dealer, I think I can get it much cheaper. What have you had break on your machine? What should I look for? I'm going to check the source for parts you suggested even though I have no idea of what the part names mean. Thanks again, G. Ball.
George Ball

Re: Shoe machines

#73 Post by George Ball »

D.W. I've seen the beautiful fine work you folks do, and it's awesome but, whereas you're making like, Louis the fourteenth furniture, I'm doing craftsman style, and I'm looking for stiching that is reflective of hand stitching. Can your machine do that trick? Yours, G.Ball.
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Re: Shoe machines

#74 Post by das »

DW,

You're running an "F" ?! Geez, sorry, I assumed it was a K.

George,

The main thing is parts availability on the model. And DW's quite right, if the seller can't "sew it off" for you [demonstrate it works fine on a sample], I'd be leery.

The Landis curved needle machines will stitch soles great, and that's about all. There's no more than an inch or so of room in the throat area, even if you remove the edge-guide, and it'd probably eat uppers leather anyway--way too heavy-handed.

For heavy thread sewing in uppers, you probably need to look at the various cylinder arm Singers for harness work. The Singer 42-class flat beds for instance, if you'd rather a flat bed like a domestic sewing machine. I understand in shopping for these machines from dealers, you need to know your thread sizes, waxed or dry, number of stitches per inch you plan to do [a range], and how thick the material might be passing under the presser foot/roller. With that information they can tell you if they have the machine you need.

I can't think of a machine that'll do both. I've only been "mechanized" myself since about '96, and the main thing I've learned with these big beasties is, they will only do one thing well. If there was any one machine that could stitch soles, and close uppers, I'd have one Image

Happy hunting.
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Re: Shoe machines

#75 Post by dw »

Al, George,

Thanks for the sympathy. Image

Seriously though, they made those machines better than they make 'em now. And if the machine is oiled assiduously and the wax cleaned off regularly, they're stout enough that not much can go wrong. The parts that are vulnerable--like the thread looper and such--are usually available through Pilgrim.

Right as rain...most of the big machines won't do two different things, although the curved needles can be adapted with hardly any effort (modify the awl) to side seam as well. I know several fairly reputable bootmakers who use a curved needle machine for that purpose.

But generally speaking, any machine that is advertised, or looks like it might do two different jobs won't either very well.

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