miscellaneous tips, advice, and cautions

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DW,

Wasn’t it Tom Ridge we had to thank for the stack of Duct tape and plastic sheeting in the garage? Glad you found use for the tape. Any ideas for the plastic sheeting?

What is the reason to wrap the shank in Duct tape? Aren’t you afraid it will start squeaking if the boot gets wet? Do you normally “sew” the shank down in this way? I always sandwich the shank between the insole and a shank cover, leather or a man made thermoplastic like Thermit.

Nice welt, what do you use for filling?

Rob

[dw]

Robert,

No, but I think Janne might...he was using plastic to protect light coloured uppers.

I wrap the shanks in duct tape because they rust. I've seen insoles rotted out (almost burned, it seemed to me) under the shank because of rust. That said, I use an insole liner (that's what you're seeing and calling "filling," I think) that goes from the toe of the boot all the way through the shank of the boot...so the shank, even if it wasn't wrapped, would not be in direct contact with the insole. So...maybe the duct tape isn't needed, but it doesn't hurt. And no, it never...I mean *never*...squeaks. Why should it? It's not in contact with the insole, it's laced in so that it cannot move around, nothing to make it squeak.

Yes, I always sew the shank in like that...it's almost an "easter egg"...you know, with the programmer's name/signature there but not obvious. Almost a hidden trademark of sorts. Accept no substitutes!!

After I sew the shank in, I also put in a shank cover. But this was a photo taken before the shank cover went on--you can't see the shank when it's covered. And always leather...as is the insole liner itself (cream cow, but it can be almost any leather that is soft and...scrap). I'm not a big fan of plastic...or synthetics of any kind...in my boots.

The welt is horse strip from Horween. I make it up for each pair of boots.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[Anonymous]

The eyes do not perceive their own need for spectacles, the brain cannot detect its own senility, the lungs cannot feel the nicotine inflicted upon it from cigarettes, the skin doesn’t notice the severity of a sun burn until the day after and feet are not pressure sensitive enough to sense chronic forces exerted upon it by a life time of wearing deforming, inflexible and body tilting footwear. Shoes to the feet are like oral braces to the teeth and gums we crank them little by little with the slightest degree of discomfort possible until eventually they are forced into shape.

[cmw]

Gary

We advise people to avoid the crepe or sole protectors because they shorten the life of a shoe. They trap the moister in for a longer time. The sole has a harder time drying if there is only the inside of the shoe/boot to breath. Another thing is they cause the pointed toe high ladies shoes to bend in a bad way. the uppers show it right away. Then there is the fact that more layers cause more problems.

My cup is empty, work calls
CW

[shane]

To all,
I have a problem! I am working on a pair of boots with blue tops and an inlay of a white dove. When I turned the boots, the blue had stained the white considerably. Is there a fix. Will Dyo no.2 cover the blue stains? can anyone give me a brief tutorial on dyo no.2 or other refinishing products? I look forward to your advice. Thanks
Shane

[dw]

Shane,

Years ago, I worked for a shoe repair that did a lot of re-dying. We used Dyo #2 for almost everything. And from what I could see, when the boots went out the door, the dye was "fast" and there was never any problem. After I went to making boots, I had several occasions to use the Dyo both for "touch-ups" like you describe and once, to re-dye a whole boot. Never had any problem with any of those jobs.

In the past five years or so, I have had occasion to turn to the Dyo again. Dyes and finishes on leathers seem to have changed...probably because of environmental regulations...and have become notoriously unstable. Leathers that I've used for decades peel their finishes and bleed their dyes. I've complained...for all the good it does...and stopped using the most blatant offenders, altogether.

But as I said, in the last several years, I've had occasion to turn to the Dyo to remedy bleeding or peeling. Unfortunately, my experience is that the Dyo isn't sticking to the leather no matter what I do. The magic is gone! I've looked at the problem from every angle that I can think of. Tried cleaning the leathers assiduously. Followed the instructions for using Dyo to a tee. And ultimately the Dyo simply peels off as well. Something, maybe some chemical that causes the original finish to fail in the first place, is causing the Dyo finishes to fail, too. So, ultimately the best advice is to check each piece of leather for bleeding and peeling, beforehand, and eliminate those leathers from your repertoire that will cause problems. I'm down to about three suppliers of dress leathers (non-exotics) and paranoid as hell. (Using cold water to soak your boots will often eliminate bleeding, too...for what it's worth)

But you've got the right idea. Masking the dove will be your greatest challenge. You need to lay masking tape on the blue in such a way as it "folds" over the cut edge to make the job look professional--no white on the blue...not even on the edges. Mask the whole boot if you can. Wrap newspaper around the larger area and tape it down. Thin the Dyo according to instructions with Dyo solvent (I think the recipe is 5:1) and spray the dove (use an air brush if you have access to one) with a light coat of Dyo. Don't put it on too heavy. Several light coats are better than one heavy one. Let dry thoroughly between coats...overnight.

And pray that it sticks...if it works, it's nearly as good as the original finish. If it doesn't, well, then you might have to give the customer a discount.

Hope that helps.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[jake]

Shane,

D.W. beat me to it. I have a "pamphlet", forgot what it is called, that Dyo put out a few years ago. In it, it describes what D.W. has explained.

I'm curious though, on what leathers were the culprit? Where did you get it?

Good Luck!

[dw]

Shane, Jake,

PS...just be glad you don't have to mix to match. It's almost impossible to get the exact shade of some of these browns and bone colours. Even blacks...all those years of experience taught me that a black can have "undertones" that are predominantly red, or blue...or even green sometimes. And it can make a subtle difference.

And by the way, dying a small area like your dove where flexing will be at a minimum is at least a little more promising than dying a whole vamp, for instance. It's worth a try, anyway.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[shane]

Dw,
Thanks for your input. I am headed for Salt Lake today and am going in to my supplier to pick up some dyo.
Jake,
I have tried to get one of those pamphlets, but they don't seem to be around anymore. The blue leather that slipped its dye in my dove was from garland neuman. It is the first I have tried, it is called "pony". The white was some kangaroo from Hardke I have had for about 3 years. I think the roo was fine, any dye would have stained it. I knew before I soaked to use cold water and I usually put plastic sacks inside so the front and back can't touch each other. That is where most of my problem came from. the front blue laying on the white of the dove on the back and vise versa. I was just in a hurry yesterday and pow! right in the kisser.
as they say hast makes waste.
I will post some before and afters if it is a succesful venture.
I got about a 5 hour drive so I better hit the road.
thanks again
Shane

[jake]

Shane,

I'm pretty sure there's no copyright protection on this, but I would be willing to copy and mail it to you.

Adios

[Tex Robin]

Shane and DW,
The trick is to not need the dye in the first place. But I have only used dyo for small touchups and would not be without it. I would never use it as a whole coating on a boot and have never seen it used successfully that way.

When wetting boots for the sideseam rub I only dip the edge of the tops in the water and maybe wet the lining slightly with a brush. I would never submerge a whole top in water with colors
inlayed in it. This is a disaster bound to happen. But we all learn by making mistakes......TR

[dw]

Tex, Shane, et al,

A thought...for your consideration....

I agree completely with your statement about not needing the DYO in the first place, Tex. (I said it myself in a previous post in this thread).

It seems to me, in fact, that if we accept the idea that at some most fundamental level a boot is a tool and a piece of protective clothing, it stands to reason that at one time or another the boot is bound to get wet...from rain, from river water, from the wearer's own perspiration. Knowing this, it falls on us...as makers...to plan accordingly. To anticipate problems...even those that will occur after the boot is made and delivered. The customer is completely at the mercy of our knowledge, experience, and expertise, in that regard. In fact, it may be one of the central reasons a customer seeks out a bespoke bootmaker.

It follows that if the leathers we choose and use in the boot cannot stand to be wet...without bleeding, for instance...then we, as makers, have fallen short of our goals, and failed the customer in some regard....nevermind how pristine or beautiful the boot looks when it goes out the door.

I once saw a shoe in a magazine article that took the shape of a squid encasing the foot and twining around the ankle. The material used for the shoe, as I recall, was an acrylic plastic....so the shoe could not be worn. But it was beautiful. A real work of ART.

But as a *shoe* it misses the point, doesn't it?

The same could be said of a boot that cannot stand to get wet or go outside to play. As ART, it may be lovely, but as a boot it's nearly worthless.

We need to choose leathers that will not bleed, in the first place...nevermind how and when we choose to wet the boot. And BTW, if, in the process, we *support* those finders who bring us quality leathers...consistently...we will ultimately find that there's more quality leather available to us. Simply because we are increasing the demand for quality and suppressing the demand for mediocrity.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[Sharon Raymond]

Greetings, I would like those who use rubber soling on their footwear to know that I have been having success w/ Upaco #1812, a non-toxic latex cement (603-888-5443)that I first read about on the Colloquy. I have been using U.S. Adhesives # LG611 (312-829-7438) for cementing all seams before stitching, but this adhesive wouldn't hold rubber soling together. The process I use with the Upaco cement is - natural rubber crepe will permanently bond to sheet soling (I am using Vibram pyramid)and to itself - but sheet soling will not bond to other sheet soling using this cement. So, I cement a sole cut from sheet soling to a 3-iron sole cut from natural crepe (from Shreiner Co. - 800-772-9915). I use a heat gun on both surfaces before adhering, then press them with my little 12"Tippman clicker after they are adhered. At this point the layers cannot be separated. I go through the same process w/ the upper part of the shoe, leaving a sheet of natural crepe as the bottom layer. When the two pieces of crepe are bonded together, they adhere without the pressure being applied, and the shoe is complete. I use natural crepe wedge heels from Shreiners as well. I am a dealer for the Tippman clicker, and to me it has been the answer to a small shoemaker's dream - it fits in a small space, is run by an air compressor readily available at Home Depot, and is just the right size for cutting shoemaking components. Please contact me if you want more information on the soling process or the clicker. One last "tip" - for me, Sanford Uniball gel impact pens work wear as leather marking pens - I wash the marks off w/ water, or use a natural crepe eraser. Sharon

[dw]

Sharon,

Not that it's important, but Upaco told me that the 1812 was a water based *neoprene* cement.

In that same context, I was down at Home Depot the other day looking for the water based neoprene cement that was mentioned in a previous post. What I found was indeed a water based neoprene contact cement...but!!...it was *not*, repeat NOT non-toxic. Perhaps that is merely the company covering their backsides extra thoroughly, but I was a bit alarumed over their warning of toxicity.

The real value of the 1812 is that you can use it in the winter...when all the doors are closed...and not worry about fumes. and plus it's really the only thing that will work reliably with oily leathers.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[davidw]

DW,

You're correct about the Weldwood water-based neoprene from Home Depot. It is not non-toxic. It does still have a small amount of toluene I believe, and warns of vapors collecting in low areas. This was the same warning that turned me off the the Neo-weld synthetic latex being sold by Tandy/Leather factory. I just figured that all these "water-based" products still had some unpleasant characteristics, so I caved in, thinking it was still way better than the solvent based cements. Reading the MSDS of almost any product can scare the heck out of you. If the Upaco is really non-toxic and solvent free, then it may be worth the price and hassle. Sorry for any misleading information I might have given, and thanks for the update.

[Tex Robin]

All,

I am not sure about the Upaco cement yet. It still has a degree of some concern in the toxic department. It is on the container. But that is not my cencern. My concern is the way is acts when air hit it. It begins to sour. I have only opened my sample and am saving the gallon for the winter. I do like the way it works ,except on rubber it is lacking! But I think it will be welcome when I turn on the space heaters this winter. If they would only come up with a non-toxic rubber cement now. Has anyone tried Upaco on boot tops yet?.....TR

[dw]

Tex, all,

I have searched the labels and the supplied material (MSDS) that the government mandates must accompany any product such as the Upaco 1812 and I cannot find any indication of toxicity. Indeed, my understanding of the issue when I talked to Upaco was that it was not toxic. What's more, I was told directly that there is no formaldahyde in it and I cannot smell even a whiff of tolulene.

As for souring...I had some problems with it turning into cottage cheese especially around the metal of the brush that I came with one of those European glue pots I use. When I switched to a plastic toothbrush, that problem went away. I still see some drying on the margins of the cement, but you'd see that with solvent based cement as well. I have used it for every part of the boot from soles, to uppers (oily), to heel stacks, to rubber top lifts and have been satisfied that it performs within a comfortable margin of the way standard all purpose would. Not exactly the same (sometimes better, as in the case of oily leathers) and it's probably not exactly as strong a bond as AP on non-oily surfaces. But, if all solvent based neoprene cement were to be banned tomorrow, I would not feel alarmed in the slightest regard.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[Tex Robin]

DW,

On my sample container the Upaco 1812 reads Health-1, Flamibility-0, Reactivity-0, and personal protection-B. It says avoid contact with eyes and skin. If exposed to high concentration of vapor , remove to fresh air. I take this to read that it is not completely safe from toxics.
I use the stick on rubber heels and I find that unless you wipe the Upaco off with a shop towel to get all the little puddles out it will take all day to dry. I do not nail my rubber caps on any more and do not have any trouble with ANY of them coming loose till I pull them off. but this is using regular Neoprene cement.
Jake and I are going to miss you at WF. We will have to talk about your hat now that you are not going to be there ......TR

[dw]

Although I am waiting on a call from Upaco for details, I have the Material Safety Data Sheet in front of me...as well as the Technical Data Sheet.

The Technical Data Sheet Says:

DESCRIPTION

UPACO 1812 is a water-borne neoprene contact cement that may be used on leathers, EVA's, rubbers, foam, formicas, etc. for combining or laminating.

The cleaner is water when wet, and mineral spirits when dry.

APPLICATION

...UPACO 1812 must be dried prior to combining to give maximum bonding properties. Adhesive will change color, from off-white to clear, when fully dry (any color remaining indicates water is still in product)> Surfaces may be heat reactivated at 120-130 degrees F (49-54 C) if there is not enough tack present to hold parts together before pressing.

From the Material Safety Data Sheet:

REPORTABLE COMPONENTS
No toxic chemical(s) subject to the reporting requirements of SARA Title III, Section 3134.
No hazardous ingredients in reportable concentrations per OSHA 190.1200.

HAZARDOUS DECOMPOSITON OR BYPRODUCTS
Carbon Monoxide and Carbon Dioxide

INHALATION HEALTH RISKS AND SYMPTOMS OF EXPOSURE
Inhalation: Vapor or mist can cause headache, nausea and irritation of nose, throat and lungs.

SKIN AND EYE CONTACT HEALTH RISKS AND SYMPTOMS OF EXPOSURE
Eyes: Irritation to the eyes given and burning sensation.
Skin: Prolonged or repeated skin contact can cause slight irritation.

SKIN ABSORPTION HEALTH RISKS AND SYMPTOMS OF EXPOSURE
Skin: Irritation to the skin may occur with signs of itching and/or a rash.

INGESTION HEALTH RISKS AND SYMPTOMS OF EXPOSURE
Ingestion will cause discomfort and internal irritation. Stomach acid may coagulate the latex. Call a physician immediately.

HEALTH HAZARDS (ACUTE AND CHRONIC)
If the product contains ammonia, a loss of breath or fainting may occur if inhalation of ammonia is sufficient.

CARCINOGENICITY: NTP CARCINOGEN: No IARC MONOGRAPHS: No OSHA REGULATED: No

I have no problem believing that there is Ammonia in this product...at least a little...and that would explain many of the health warnings. Of course, we certainly will never know what all is in the cement--that's the recipe, isn't it? But until I hear otherwise (and I'll let the Forum know what I hear) I will fall back on the original statement at the head of the MSDS: "No toxic chemical(s) subject to the reporting requirements of SARA Title III, Section 3134.
No hazardous ingredients in reportable concentrations per OSHA 190.1200."

I hope this helps.

BTW, my hat is typical of the Northern Range, esp. circa 1900. You fellows down along the border have to resort to wearing straw hats (not real hats at all...just simulations made of dead grass)


Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[Tex Robin]

DW,

Well your real hat would melt down here or catch on fire from the heat. The straws are much cooler and more practical here in Texas but most of us wear a cap and leave the hat at home till Sunday. actually I haven't had my straw hat on since last Roundup in WF.. I am hoping it will be cool enough this year to wear my resistol felt(non George Strait crease)actually it is a replica of the one Chuck Norris wore in the first series of Walker Texas Ranger. Jake and I had some surprises for you at WF. Guess we will have to wait till another year .....TR

[Tex Robin]

DW,

I am not really worried about the Upaco. I like it with few reservations. It is probably the amonia they are referring to as a precaution. I guess the price is still what is sticking in my craw.......TR

[dw]

Tex,

I am disappointed that I cannot make it to WF this year. I had planned to. I even started three pair of boots to bring along. I have one pair done and the other two nearly ready to go onto the last but no way will I get them finished in time. But that's not the real hang up anyway. Simply put, it's wherewithal...chink...couter...push...rhino...money. After building the shop and moving in this year, I simply can't afford it. I'm not hurting for money, particularly, but I don't want to be, either.

I am hoping that I can make it next year and have talked with a friend about sharing a booth/table. Problem is, I'll have to start a whole 'nuther pair (or two) of boots to put on display, come the first of the year if I'm to have any hope of having them done by October.

The fact that you and Jake had some surprises planned for me makes me nervous. Please tell me none of them had dental drills, or tooth pulling pliers involved...or those hay bonnets you call hats, either


Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[Tex Robin]

DW,

Well, Jake and I will just have to save it till next year.......TR

[davidw]

DW,

I looked at the MSDS for the DAP Weldwood cement. It's got 1-5% toluene and another ingredient that is listed as toxic. It is advertised as non-flammable and VOC compliant, not non-toxic. It also doesn't heat activate by design I'm sure; otherwise there'd be formica coutertops popping off everytime you set a hot casserole down. (Not important for my "goop" soles, but a quality you all would need for resoling I'd guess.) I also looked at the Barge cement MSDS. The Weldwood sounds safer by comparison, but definitely not a benign substance. Sounds like you have a winner with the Upaco.

[jake]

D.W.,

Tooth pullin' pliers? Naw! They were just plain old Black & Decker pliers with a little rust on them!

By the way, I stayed at Redmond for three full weeks, and I NEVER saw another hat just quite like D.W.'s (grinning like a possum).

I'm with Tex, I would definitely hate to wear a felt hat where I live in June, July, or August. You would MELT!