DW,

From Websters the definition of *inaccurate*:

Not accurate,not exact,containing mistakes,inexact,erroneous,faulty,and incorrect.

Maybe your word was *inaccurate* or something because I believe that mistake, erroneous, faulty , and incorrect mean WRONG. Maybe you used an inaccurate word....TR

Riley,
This is probably a more appropriate place for this disscusion. I appreciate the complament on my lace ups. I don't use a jerk needle when I inseam. I use nylon bristles ( split) on dacron tapers. I also use a curved awl. Basically I do everything the same as in DW's book, except from the outside. I don't pre-punch any holes, I just start sewing. Like you I feel I have more control in getting my welts to lay in the feather. I tried sewing from the inside out quite a few times, but the awl came out in different places on the vamp, even if I came right out of the corner of the feather. It seems to me that you have to be very consistant and precise with the angle you start your hole. I guess thats why alot of people are pre punching the holes. Any way I feel very comfortable with my method, and I get a tight inseam that is straight and right against the feather.
Shane

Shane, Riley,

It is always gratifying to me to see someone take my books and learn from them and then run with the concepts. That has always been my purpose. Your packers over in the Gallery are very beautiful.

With regard to sewing from the outside in, as I have pointed out, I make a habit of analyzing every technique that I run across. At the risk of starting this now sadly debased conversation all over again, all I can say is I hear you. Getting the welt to lay in the feather flat and consistent has engaged my interest for a long time. And my experiences echo yours. Maybe when you get down to it, it just doesn't make any difference if the awl comes out in different places on the vamp--but it always seemed important to me. If you come up with some way to address the issue of the holes in the vamp being to big when sewing from the outside in, I'd say don't change a thing. You've understood the concepts...and the problems inherent in each approach...and as long as you don't deny them, how you solve those problems is totally beyond judgment. Certainly beyond mine...or anyone else's, for that matter.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

G'day Everybody,
A wild pig shooter I've talked to up in Queensland is going to send me some bristles to muck about with, with a view to purchase a bunch.
Would any of you like me to send you, say, a dozen or so (if I think they're up to scratch) to also play with. And if you like them I can pass on your details to him (or pass his onto you).
Also, what is the usual purchase price per weight you guys pay and we should be able to get a better deal (even if it's just a bit).

Cheers
Duncan

DW,
Thanks for the complement.
Shane

Hi All

Not to get things fired up again on inseaming but I just finished a couple of pairs of boots. During the discussion from a few weeks ago between some of the members of the forum there were some ways of inseaming that were talked about at great length. These were along the lines of prepunch, don't prepunch grove vs channel. Well anyway I took a chance and used a channel like DW talked about and prepunched the holes. Also I used an awl that I purchased from DW. The inseaming was unbeleivably easy and the boots turned out great. I think that the channel is by far better than cutting the insole. I felt that I had more control of everything. I guess my point is, try new things, you might like it.

The awl that I was using is the best one I have used by far. It fits in my hand like a dream and was very smooth. If you get a chance, try one of DW's awls. I think you will find they are the finest money can buy.

I'm learning a lot from all of you so keep those discussions going.

Mike,

Did you work from the inside out or the outside in?

I know a maker that, I believe, is probably one of the best boot makers alive today. When visiting his shop he took an insole and cut it, as I assume you are referring to, and how he did that without losing a thumb I'll never know. I also don't understand how that method could work as well as the channel, but it does...at least for him.

I use the channel and recently started pre-punching. Sure makes a difference, as far as I can tell. Soooo...you are right,trying new methods is good sometimes.

Good Bootmaking,

Riley

Riley

I did the sewing from the inside out with the toe of the boot facing me.

Mike

Mike and all,

Just a quick note to tell you that I don't make the awl hafts for resale ordinarily. I make a few to sell to students and mostly for myself as a hobby--wood turning. The guy you want to talk to about awlhafts is Dick Anderson.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

Mike Strong

"Quote

"I think that the channel is by far better than cutting the insole. I felt that I had more control of everything. I guess my point is, try new things, you might like it."

Mike, what is your basis for your statement, The channel is by far better than cutting the insole?

I have inseamed Hundreds of boots cutting the inside channel of the insole with a knife and without prepunching. And I personnel have never seen a hand made boot with this method split the innersole along this cut. Control come from experience using the awl.

Not wanting to open a big can of worms, as this topic is old hat. Just wondering about your statement. I know quite of few Bootmakers that inseam the same way you do. It's just a different technique.

"Riding For the Brand"
Brian C. Thomas

DW

I'm glad as always for being one of your students.(big grin). Hope Dick understand I wasn't trying to take work from him. Thanks

Mike

Brain

My statement comes from cutting the channel the way that I was taught. Which I used for years. I just tried making a channel the way that DW had described early in a posting and found that it seems to work better.

Mike

Roger that Mike

To All,

Just a follow-up to our discussion weeks ago. I've been experimenting trying out everyone's techniques. Have to tell ya, I've gone back to doing it like I've always done it.......pre-hole and work from the inside out. In my opinion, there's nothing more reliable.

As I mentioned, occasionally I stray away from techniques taught to me. I consider this a part of learning. Exploring "why" we "do" "what" we do. But as I also said, I always come back to my roots. Techniques which are not unique to my mentor, but handed down from Boot Gods years ago.

DW,

After speaking with you a few days ago about the difficulty of locating twisted bristles, I tried what you suggested. I bought some PL.009 steel guitar strings, twisted them as prescribed, using 9" lengths, and they work! I'm just in the process of learnig to inseam from the inside out, and the .009 are a little to lightweight for my liking, but the .001 is really nice, when twisted properly.

Good Bootmaking,

Riley

Riley,

Amazing, isn't it? Best twisted steel bristles you can get and probably at less than 20 cents apiece. And you can get them almost anywhere.

But did you mistype? They're .01, not .001, aren't they?

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

DW

Yes, they are .01...can't imagine what a .001 would look like!

Good Bootmaking,

Riley

Riley,

I don't think they make them...actually I don't think they make anything smaller than .008. I tried to get some .007 for a specialized application and was told that they weren't available from any source....that they didn't exist.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

Riley, try the fishing line it makes excellent bristles. The old stuff is not as slick as the new stuff. You can ruff it up with sandpaper if needed. Try the thirty pound test it's about right.

"Riding For The Brand"
Brian C. Thomas

Jake, all,

Re-reading some of the discussion from last year about inseaming inside out vs. outside in, I recalled a phone conversation I had with a fellow some months ago. We were talking about the pros and cons and as I sometimes do when I'm in conversation, I picked up an awl to just sort of let the awl itself speak to me. As I looked at it, I realized the primary, first and foremost, reason why I inseam from the inside out.

An awl is generally tapered, with the finest part of the blade at the tip. Sometimes that tip will almost be needle thin and needle sharp (as in the case of German sickle awls), But no matter what kind of awl, you don't have to go back very far from the tip...half inch or so at max...before the awl starts getting thick.

Now, if you inseam from the outside in, the point of the awl pierces the welt and then the lining and then goes into, and through, the holdfast. And as it goes through all these "layers" the thickest part of the awl is being forced further into the welt, and the vamp...and the hole on the outside of the boot is soon actually larger than the hole on the inside.

The reverse is true when inseaming from the inside out. The last layers to be pierced...with the narrowest part of the awl...are the vamp and welt. And when the inseaming thread is drawn through the hole it will fill the hole and the inseam will tend to be tight and waterproof especially if a good handwax is used.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

DW

As a beginner, doing it outs./in makes for a cleaner line when finished. It looks like I'll have to find another way to make a clean line: practise. Your reasoning has convinced me.

CW

Chris,

I understand what you mean about a "cleaner line." But if you "hole" the insole ahead of time, you'll end up with as clean a line as any you can get going from the outside in. Maybe cleaner...and certainly tighter, and not just because of the thickness of the awl but because you can control to a minute degree where the awl pierces the holdfast and the feather.

Some makers object to holing the insole because it slows down the process. But I have taught bootmaking for near on to 20 years now and I have always had one rule that I passed on to my students, but which applies to experienced makers as well:

"When you look at the finished product you never see the speed with which a technique was done... but you *do* see the care with which it was done."


Speed and care (quality) are natural antagonists. It's always a compromise...for every increment of speed you introduce into your work you lose a tick of precision...and vice versa. No, it's not one to one, especially with practice and experience, but the fundamental relationship is there, nonetheless.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

DW.

I guess you knew I would disagree with you on the speed factor, didn't you. Well, I do. I believe that speed comes after accuracy. At least in my case. When you have inseamed thousands of boots
you can almost do it blindfolded and the speed comes gradually. It has no effect on how well the job is done. Skill and accuracy comes with repetition.....TR

Tex,

Of course I did...I'm a fisherman.

But believe it or not, I agree with you...up to a point. Tell me, though, after 30+ years of making boots, what do you do when you really, really want to do a good job? When you really, **really** want to impress? When you are going for the "Professionals Choice" at WF? Do you speed up? Or do you slow down?

I can't answer for you but you know what my response would be to that question, don't you? And I've never been fast...imagine if I slowed down.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

Tex,

PS...getting "up to speed" is not the same as "speeding up."

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC