"the water of life..."

This off topic area is a place where, while you are visiting the Crispin Colloquy, you can talk about beer, whiskey, kilts, the latest WWII re-enactment, BBQ, grandsons, shoes in the media, and even the odd meandering essay on "why we make shoes."
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"the water of life..."

#1 Post by dw »

In another thread we are discussing beer. I thought it would be appropriate to discuss livelier spirits in a seperate thread.

As many of you know I am a fan of certain single malt whiskeys. Right now my favourite is Laphroig 15, but in the past I have (and still do) enjoyed Lagavulin, Talisker and a few others.

So to the central issue...there are any number of folks here who bring more expertise to the task than I do and who have keener palates as well.

At Guthrie this last month we had a tasting of sorts brought on by a few generous folks who shared their precious stashes---Terry Burgess and Nasser and Marc Carlson. We might have had an even dozen to taste.

What I encountered (and I have encountered it before in other whiskeys) was a lingering taste...maybe a taste of raw grain...in some of the malts--especially the lowland malts. But almost never in Island malts and seldom in Highland malts. Sometimes it's there in the front of the palate and then slips away. Sometimes it stays long past its welcome as a sour aftertaste.

It is not a taste that I am particularly fond of. I first encountered it with some very highly recommended bourbon that was supposed to be "characteristic" of what bourbon was all about and redolent of the rye that supposedly makes early and high class bourbons so alluring.

I then encountered it again with some single malt Irish from a famous maker.

The latest was some Bruichladdich 10. The offending taste was there initially, although at a very low level, and then it faded to leave a taste of figs in the back of the mouth. So the "Laddie" was at least drinkable.

But I have never detected that...to me..."sour" aftertaste in the malts I mentioned at the beginning of this post, and I don't taste it at all in the Laphroig 15.

So...I'm wondering if anyone else is familiar with this and can explain to me what it is and why it should be in some whiskey and not in others.

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Re: "the water of life..."

#2 Post by corvin »

Perhaps the peaty novocaine flavor of the Laphroaig is masking the "sour" aftertaste. Have you tried another Islay or tried the Bruichladdich after some dental work? ;-)

(Message edited by corvin on December 02, 2008)

(Message edited by corvin on December 02, 2008)
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Re: "the water of life..."

#3 Post by jask »

How else would you describe sour? acidic,bitter, or metallic .. or more akin to the astringency of Tannin?
My first thought was that you are picking up the grain husk flavour as this is an astringent taste many people describe in Rye or Jameson Whiskey.
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Re: "the water of life..."

#4 Post by dw »

I like Lagavulin, Talisker, Caol Ila, Bunnahabin and, of course, the Laphroig...these are all island malts...but I don't like all island malts across the board.

Maybe the peat is masking the sour taste. But I really like the smoke and the peat and I think it is the distinguishing characteristic of scotch. I wouldn't associate the peat with novocaine, however. If the anesthetic properties of the alcohol, itself, wouldn't mask the sour taste I doubt anything else could.

And yes, I think you've hit it on the head, jask, but why do some whiskeys have that taste and others do not? Why do I pick it up in almost every thing but the malts listed above?

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#5 Post by jask »

The answer is easy in the case of Jamesons- they actually use a portion of unmalted grain in the mash. I do not know that this would be the case or not in "our" single malts. A lowland might be light enough in body and flavour to reveal this, whereas a Lagavulin with its clove and phenolic notes could mask a lot of things. I am sipping a Lagavulin now (lucky me!!)and its mouth feel is a little dry and tingly as a tannic wine might make the front of my mouth/pallet feel...so it may well be there; but not a flaw to my taste.
Many people dislike real Rye; it certainly has a LOT of grain astringency in the aftertaste, and I can see how it would be unpleasant to you as it really tends to linger. I find a similar problem with some Bourbons in that they are so syrup sweet they feel like a liqueur vs. a liquor.
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Re: "the water of life..."

#6 Post by dw »

Jask,

So...in "fine malts" is this residual unmalted grain a result of careless malting or commercial haste? Or is it always a factor when making whiskey but some products manage to cover it up or subsume it in complexity?

In other words, if we compared a hand-made single malt (if there is such a thing and I assume there is)...where the maker can control the malting to a precise degree (or can that even be done?)...to a single malt made in a big operation, and all things were otherwise equal, would we see/taste a difference with regard to grain husk flavour?

Thanks for taking the time, BTW, it's fascinating...

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Re: "the water of life..."

#7 Post by jask »

DW, I could not say with any certainty.
From my own experience of beermaking I would wager a guess... Malting is the process of moistening and germinating the grain then drying or roasting it to develop the desired profile; I know that this is a fine science and a good maltster can develop subtle and sometimes surprising results from control of ;time, temperature, humidity, and air circulation. Mashing is the stage when the grains/adjuncts are wet out and held at temperature to activate the fermentation, I am assuming the distillery is adding unmalted grain for flavour and body. The husks of the grain in both brewing processes are used to help form a filter bed during sparging or "washing" of the mash. Oversparging is a common cause of the "huskiness" in beer and I would guess that a distillery that did the same or overblended with the feints, or final runnings from the still might have this same taste.
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Re: "the water of life..."

#8 Post by dw »

Jask,

Thanks. I have actually done everything in making beer (ales) except malting the grain (I started with malted grains). So I know what you are talking about when you mention "sparging."

It's interesting, I wish we could get a bunch of people together...even here in this thread...and compare notes.

Maybe some folks don't taste it even when it is pronounced. Maybe some actually like it.

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Re: "the water of life..."

#9 Post by dw »

I read and occasionally post to a Scottish/kilt forum that, I believe, is sited in Europe somewhere (probably not Scotland). The "owner" of the "forum" is Scots but currently lives in Holland I think and feeling homesick, I suppose, he started this forum.

In any case, one of the more prolific members is the owner of Ferintosh--an ancient Bread and Breakfast/Inn in Dumfries--and quite the single malt afficianado.

I posed my question about the sour taste on that forum and got this interesting answer from him. [Note, whether from a natural inclination or by virtue of his position as Laird of Ferintosh, he speaks and writes in a quasi(?)-Scots dialect. It takes a bit to get used to but I think you can extract the meaning.]
DWF-

I think I can help ya...

fierst- let's cover the easy things...
whisky frae Scotland (Scotch) is spelled whisky (no E) and the plural is 'whiskies' [snip]

noo... your query (an a damn guid query by the way!)

all single malt (whether Spey, Island, arr lal'lan...) is made frae 100% malted barley...

ainly blended Scotch contains grain whisky... sae- ya are no tastin "raw grain"...but ya arr very close in yur guess...

check the whiskies ya arr tastin' this note... I bet they are maistly unpeated arr very lawly peated...I bet they were aged i' auld bourbon casks... 2nd fill, 3rd fill arr older casks...an I bet they arr fairly young (under 12 years)

I think whit ya arr describin' is...a very common taste i' lal'lan malts (like Bladnoch 6, 10 & Glenkinchie, Loch Lomond, Littlemill), Irish whiskey,

young Speyside whiskies aged in bourbon casks (like Glenlivet 10, 12, Cragganmore 10, )

licht arr unpeated youngisland malts (like Bruichladdich 6, 8, 10, Jura 8) ...

it is a combination o' flavours made frae...

Raw Spirit- that has no had enough contact wi' wood in the cask... some lal'lan and almaist all Irish malts arr triple distilled... that makes a purer cleaner spirit… this spirit has less o' the oils and impurities (it is these impurities that often make the whisky taste sae guid!) this is typical o' young whiskies...

Malt- ya arr gettin a stronger malty, cereal-like taste (often stated in tastin' notes as cairdboard arr cereal box flavours) the malt flavours arr often masked by peat arr sherry casks...

Bourbon Cask- some aulder bourbon casks (arr a cask that has been used several times o'er...) gie a straw, hay, raw wood taste tae whisky...

Noo… some people LUV these flavours… in Italy 4-6 year auld malt whisky is all the rage....

But tae many folk these arr no pleasant flavours… and maist folk prefer sweeter sherry cask whisky arr peated whisky…

Hope that helps….


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Re: "the water of life..."

#10 Post by dw »

I am posting a bit of information that I find interesting (and more than a little disheartening)...sorry it come on Christmas Day, although maybe it's not such a bad time to post this after all.

On another forum there is a fellow who is posting a series of (magnificent) photos that he took on a recent holiday around to various scenic parts of Scotland and the distilleries in Scotland.

His last excursion was to the Isle of Skye and to the Talisker distillery. Taking the tour he found out (was told by the guide) the following:

Talisker has been taken over by a large corporation, Diago--"the biggest drinks company in the wolrd." They have fired the distillery staff and now only 3 people are employed (round the clock)...everything else is computerized.

None of the grain used at the distillery comes from Skye (maybe not such a big deal) but now even the peat that is used and was such a distinct part of Talisker's flavour, no longer comes from Skye.

Only 40% of the malt that is made at the distillery is used in Talisker, the rest is now used in blends.

Most of the malt is aged Speyside rather than in Skye.

Talisker is now bottled in Glasgow with Glasgow water.

Talisker is now chill filtered (as I understand it, filtering is kind of contrary to what single malt is all about).

But worst of all, Talisker is now artificially coloured!!

There is a lesson here...not only about whisky but about all old and traditional Trades/crafts and the product they create. I don't know how many wonderful, one-of-a-kind, hand engraved gun makers have to be destroyed, and lost forever by some bright-eyed (but blinkered), over-ambitious, over-funded, CEO of some faceless corporation who knows next to nothing about smithing or the skills and the philosophies involved in doing exceptional work (as if would matter anyway) and doesn't even have the sense (if not just simple respect) to learn or understand; I don't know how many old and venerable tanneries, shoemakers...and worst of all, distilleries...have to be lost to speed and greed, and expedience, and modernization. But as long as we still...even in some secret place in our hearts...harbour some benighted notion that faster is better, it won't end until they (we) are all gone.

"Shoemakers stick to your lasts!!"

Tioreadh...

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Re: "the water of life..."

#11 Post by sara736 »

hi it is really very nice and informatics information.you did very good job keep it up
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Re: "the water of life..."

#12 Post by nickb1 »

Can't believe nobody has posted on whisky since 2008!
But some reflections on the comparisons being drawn between whisky and shoes. I've been to a few distilleries and I think the observations concerning Talisker are general. Look at Highland Park, another great malt that has been to some extent ruined by the marketing men. One bottle was so bad I literally had to pour it away, and all the time the name is changing and the packaging getting more fancy.
I believe this has to do with the organisational form. The distilleries tend to be owned by regular business corporations, and their job is to make money not whisky, except in so far as the latter is necessary to make money. Therefore you get all the hype on the back of very little of the actual tradition. Like with high street shoes. And it's getting worse as time goes on, with the ultra commercialisation of particular whiskies as high value items. Like with posh brand shoes, actually made in the same questionable way as the cheaper ones. Historically, nobody but the distillers would even drink single malts, everything was blended. Best value still has to be blended scotch; it's easier to make a blend with the correct balance of flavours, sweetness and acidity, than a single malt. Grants family reserve for me. What's not to like? But now that single malts have been marketed to dizzy heights people are often dismissive of blends.
I used to drink Macallan 18 year old, now I can't afford it! It costs nearly 10 times what I used to pay 20 years ago. And is no longer being produced with malt coming 100% from locally grown Golden Promise barley. Neither is the 12 year old, which is still just about affordable, as a treat, but is masked in a swathe of cheaper imitation 12 year olds which taste nothing like the original, which are a waste of money. Thanks again, marketing men.
My current favourite of the single malts is Ardbeg, the 10 year old is affordable and the special offerings are really a bit special. I hope it doesn't go the way of some of the other brands but probably it will, unless the organisational form is different. Well I see it is owned by the Hennessey group, a regular corporation listed in the Paris stock exchange. (they also own the scottish malt whisky "society" now, too!) So I'd better buy it now while it is still good. Tastewise anyway, can't speak for the authenticity. There is no caramel anyway. :) Yet.
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Re: "the water of life..."

#13 Post by dw »

I agree with you across the board. I call it the 'factory mentality' and we have all bought into it, whether we acknowledge it or not. It is why the Trade (hand welted shoemaking) is dying--the shoemaking industry is in it for the money. That's job one. Maximizing profit is job two. And no other jobs are worthy of distinction. Quality ain't in it.

It is why skill and craftsmanship and the very concept of 'objective quality" have no currency in our society. It is why Goodyear welted shoes are the Gold Standard...soon, inevitably, to be displaced at the top by cement sole construction. And perhaps the real problem is that once we commit to mediocrity...or even just accept it as the best we can afford...we are lost. There is no going back. I can think of no historical example of a shoemaker 'industrializing'--switching from hand welted to Goodyear welted with all the consequently 'slippery slope' decisions that are generated--switching back to HW. Once the devil has us, he doesn't let go.

I still like Highland Park 12--just enough peat reek / smoke without the iodine. And I recently received a special bottling of a port barrel (?) 15 that was very, very enjoyable. But I am massively disappointed in the way the company is going. Their old American oak barrel 15 is no more.

I like the Macallen 18. And as I recall the Craggenmore 12 gave the Macallen a run for its money at a very affordable price. But in general the Speysides are too sweet for me. If I want sweet, I'll drink Redbreast Irish. I still want some smoke...that's what Scotch is about, IMO. Most highland malts are distilled in sealed vats so there's no smoke in the whisky at all.
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Re: "the water of life..."

#14 Post by nickb1 »

Ardbeg is an Islay, so there's enough peat, I think it's more subtly done than in Lagavulin or Laphroaig though.
Handsewn shoemaking has been dying for a long time (since messers Blake and Gooyear came along) and is still just about alive, so I think it can survive. There is a lot of interest as people are dimly aware of the corporate industrial problem, but the interest is sadly not backed by ability to pay for the genuine article. What worries me more than the demand side is that there is less and less opportunity for anyone to train (apprenticeships). Closing is similarly dead here, outside of factories. There are just two companies I can use to get uppers made, one of them orthopeadic so the uppers are not so "refined", or I have to pay top dollar for another shoemaker for them. No politician is interested in helping crafts survive, they just think it's old hat. Several have gone extinct already. And young people are more interested in CAD CAM processes for shoes ... I don';t get this, for me the attraction of making is that it's *not* that!
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Re: "the water of life..."

#15 Post by nickb1 »

Incidentally, I'm not sure about the vats precluding the peat. As i understand it the peat gets in via the malting process. ie peat is used to as fuel to provide heat to dry the sprouted barley grains, traditionally, as they were turned by hand over a heated surface in the "maltings" area of the distillery. After that everything was done in vats. (But maybe nowadays a peat taste is imparted by molecular biology, a la cad cam..? Seems to be the way things are going in wine production...)
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Re: "the water of life..."

#16 Post by nickb1 »

dw wrote: Sat Nov 29, 2008 7:04 am Sometimes it's there in the front of the palate and then slips away. Sometimes it stays long past its welcome as a sour aftertaste.
A big issue with scotch has been the use of sulphur sticks to fumigate sherry barrels. This derives from some potentially well-meaning EU legislation, whereby "sherry" has now to denote wine bottled in Jerez, Spain .., protecting their traditions (and market ...). So, whereas sherry for the English speaking market used to be bottled elsewhere including England, with the casks immediately shipped to Scotland for maturing whisky, it's all now bottled in Spain. There, the casks lie around in the sun and can go mouldy, so they are often fumigated with sulphur sticks to avoid this. :uhoh: To anyone sensitive to sulphur, apparently a sizeable minority of people, this imparts a sour taste to the whisky. That's me (can't eat duck or goose eggs for the same reason, high content of sulphur compounds), I've had to throw bottles away because of sulphur. For a while I switched to bourbon, where this is not an issue. Anyway, if this is what you were tasting, it's fairly random in relation to region, it depends if any of the casks used for the bottling had been sulphur sticked. The only way to avoid for sure is to get a malt that has not been matured in sherry casks.
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Re: "the water of life..."

#17 Post by dw »

I sent some variation of this earlier but it got lost--probably I didn't hit the 'send' button.

In any case, some years ago, a shoe customer gave me a bottle of Ardbeg Airigh Nam Beist for my birthday. It was one of the finest single malts I have ever had the privilege of drinking, But that said, most Ardbegs are a little too bold and harsh for my liking.

As regards shoemaking and this whole question, you might be interested in this discussion. It deals with a lot of the same ideas. Starts some pages prior to the post linked but like a lot of forum posts some redundancy is involved.

I was interested in your thoughts on the sour cereal taste. I had an acquaintance who was a well regarded member of the Single Malt Society, as well as a hotel and pub owner in Dumfries, tell me that all single malts younger than 12 years old will have that to one degree or another. I don't know...I am not an expert on single malts, but his advice has never failed me yet.

That said, he was also the one who told me that no Speyside and very few Highland malts will have smoke in the flavour profile. Again, in my limited experience, and my forays...questions and posts...on Single Malt forums, he has been proven right repeatedly. But I am a keen reader of flavour profiles....as subjective as they may be, and I find confirmation over and over again. Whether that's because the barley in modern, corporate single malts is no longer dried over natural peat fires above the malting floor, I cannot say. YMMV.

And FWIW, I can't eat duck eggs either--I am severely allergic although I can eat duck meat.
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Re: "the water of life..."

#18 Post by nickb1 »

Enjoyed the Styleforum discussion, thanks. I would add that regarding mechanisation (and now computerisation, which is similar but on steroids), it is actually dependent on the manual and anologue processes it displaces and digitises. How else can someone skilfully program, judge or adjust an algorithm (or mechanise a process), synthesise a taste? As a society we are sawing at the branch we are sitting on, which explains why the last company ultimately had to go cap in hand to a traditional shoemaker. Unfortunately they don't need very many of them. RIght, Off now to savour a Glengoyne 18, it's as rich as the Macallan 18 though not as sherried, and less than 20% of the price.
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Re: "the water of life..."

#19 Post by carsten »

dw wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 10:03 am That said, I feel compelled to point out that shoemaking, as a Trade, goes back for 10,000 years. If there were an easier way it probably would have already been discovered. Thing is...and here I digress into speculation...it is ultimately fruitless and frustrating trying to come up with faster, easier or newer ways to approach or replace ancient and venerable techniques. Think about what you're really trying to do...make it easier on yourself? I can't believe that any real or significant uptick in accuracy is really and truly in the offing unless critical skills are so wanting or so unachievable by human hands as to be non-existent.

Every time you (he/they) cut out a pattern from the manila folder, you exercise your eyes and your perceptions and your fine motor skills. If nothing else, it's practice--and you know what they say about practice. The same is true with the broguing: If you do it in manila folder before you do it in leather, you'll better understand the limitations or difficulties of the pattern and, simultaneously, you'll increase your fine motor skills. Consider it 'practice' for the real thing...and you know what they say about practice.

(...)
I'm sure all this sounds rather highfalutin' and maybe even pompous--you have to make your own way in this world/Trade. But perhaps it is well to remember that the Traditions...all traditions ...evolve and become traditions for a reason and almost always after many wrong turns are taken, much hair pulled and a certain necessary dedication and experience based persistence of vision applied.
I guess, ultimately, it depends on what your goal is.
Thanks for sharing your perspective DW. I thought some more about your point and read through the Good Year Process discussion. Please remember in the following that English is not my mother tongue and all is supposed to be expressed with the greatest deal of respect for you and the trade.

I am sure you have carefully chosen your approach and philosophy. And over all, I think you are making a very good point here: somebody how wants to master a certain trade, be It shoe making or anything else should always give the very best to achieve the best possible result. In terms of shoe making, (if I understand correctly) the old masters achieved a high point in terms of quality and techniques, and it has been going downhill ever since. Due to financial constrains people invented machines, new glues etc. so that an objective analysis of todays and those good shoes reveals: After walking X miles- my feet are not sore, the shoe is still in tact after wearing them for Y years etc. Back then people were stitching with X-SPI, while now it’s only this SPI.

So the old shoe wins – objectively no matter if it might be fashion that they are green now and back then they were only brown or black – so this is what I want (as a goal setting exercise): Get back to the old quality and realize/achieve what people were able to achieve before.

Now, one can say: How did the old masters do it? Well they had the techniques a-z, so by applying those I might with due practice get there if have the right set of talents / skills. Personally, I think, it is very important to know those techniques and have always been interested to learn them.
The question to me is, however, did not the true masters also use all tools/techniques that were available at the time?

While I totally agree that, the proven skills sharpen mind and hand when one is executing a certain work, which will serve also other aspects of the work, was it not that Michelangelo let his students polish the marble figures – and in a way thereby outsourced his work, in order to achieve more of what he was really trying to accomplish?

When the question is, which tools and techniques are legitimate, where does one start and where does one stop?

Do I need to sit next to a candle sewing the shoes or is electric light ok -because it makes me see better and control a better SPI? Is a sewing machine still a legitimate tool or not? What about Dacron thread, when hemp or linen was the way to go? Fact is that some techniques were simply not available in the past or may have even been forgotten – like e.g. the early forms of concrete the Romans have used.

Did maybe Michelangelo think on his death bed, I was a master in my field, knew the available techniques to perfection and did what I was able to do in life but it would have been so great if only I would have had a power chisel. That way I might still have been able to carve Madonna in that other biblical scene and thereby pleased more the eye of god? Or, knowing that there is a power chisel would he have condemned it and said this is devils work? Did Beethoven maybe think if there would just be a technique available that lets me record what I am saying so that I can still finish my unfinished work with my last breath? I don’t know the answer.

If one says “If there were an another way it probably would have already been discovered.”, what would have happened if those generations before Michelangelo would have said the same? We may have never enjoyed the Sistine chapel.

Don’t get me wrong. Of course I am not trying to compare myself to any of the great masters, but on my level to me this means: If I know how to drill a hole with a hand drill and know how to sharpen a drill. Do I always need to do it this way or will I use an electric drill and buy another drill once in a while? Or if I want to make a mirror image of a brogue pattern do I punch the holes in a folded manila folder or mirror image one half using a computer program, when mirroring is the task that I am after? If my time is limited and it is good to change shoes daily, do I need to follow suit using the traditional methods exclusively and thereby slow down production or use an electric light to extend my working hours?

To me this is a choice one is given and while of course the final goal to achieve the best possible quality has to be maintained – I personally find it legitimate to at least explore a newly available approach if exactly the same result is achieved. If the result is worse – Ok then its time to switch back to the proven method. Maybe there is more than one way to heaven.

Again everything with all due respect and for what it is worth, Carsten
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In Memoriam

#20 Post by carsten »

Since I can't post in the in Memoriam section I put it here:

What a great loss!

Unfortunately, I never met DW in person, but I am very grateful to him.

I am fascinated so see how dedicated he was to shoemaking and how he was able to form a whole community of people who shared his interest.

He really knew about his subject in depth and always strived for the best, while still being always kind, open and helpful to us in the forum. He shared his profound knowledge without expecting more than a "Thank you".

Shoemaking or nor, I wish I would have had more teachers like DW in my life.

My sincere condolences, Carsten
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Re: "the water of life..."

#21 Post by das »

Thanks Carsten. Let's continue to keep the great energy D.W. infused into The Crispin Colloquy he created for us in such a spirit as he brought to the Forum.
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