"...a great way forward?"

This off topic area is a place where, while you are visiting the Crispin Colloquy, you can talk about beer, whiskey, kilts, the latest WWII re-enactment, BBQ, grandsons, shoes in the media, and even the odd meandering essay on "why we make shoes."
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Re: "...a great way forward?"

#51 Post by dw » Thu Feb 07, 2013 7:01 am

Al,

We're on the same page on all this I think. But I thought your comment encapsulated many of the ideas presented here, very well. On a par with Richard's comment about advice being "given to newbies by people who haven't even mastered the fundamental skills associated with shoemaking or leatherwork."

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[center]Without "good" there is no "better," without "better," no "best."
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Re: "...a great way forward?"

#52 Post by das » Thu Feb 07, 2013 7:04 am

Poor Boy,

I enjoyed that. You are lucky you found the charitable teacher you did. If you’re using veg/oak-tanned insoles, soles, and heels, the drywall screws may be risky. If the leather gets/stays wet the tannic acid and the steel screws will chemically burn it to black brittle crumbs, especially the insole seat. It sounds like you’re mending reenactor Civil War footwear?

“. if you feel that you are an expert or master or call yourself either then you are gravely mistaken”

*OUCH* Expert is a bothersome term, yes. “X” is an unknown quantity, and “spurt” is a little squirt. But be mindful, lest some start tossing out prerogative terms like “Jack-legs” and “cobblers”—let’s keep it civil. At least you didn’t fling out the, “those who can do—those who can’t just teach” bomb. I show plenty of folks how to make shoes for free, share my sources openly, and my last 7 apprentices (5-7years each) have been paid, 40 hrs/wk—they didn’t pay me. When I did evening classes once a week, in the ‘70s-‘80s, I only charged the student minimum wage at the time, because it was after my working hours and they were broke. I helped a friend cost-out a weekend shoemaking class recently, and with tools, materials, lasts, “lab fees” for stuff they’d get to take home, it was barely a beak-even proposition. Add in the countless hours afterward corresponding with students, advising and instructing for months or years. Nobody’s getting rich.

TEOTWAWKI Shoemaking (the end of the world as we knew it) might be an interesting new thread. If only armed with a Singer patcher, staple gun, 550 nylon cord, some hand tools, and the materials out of an old car, like upholstery, floor mats, etc., make a passable shoe like the WWII prison-camp clogs made from salvaged scraps of this and that. Footwear for fleeing a Zombie apocalypse? Slippers for your Prepper Bunker? It might be fun.

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Re: "...a great way forward?"

#53 Post by dw » Thu Feb 07, 2013 7:13 am

Jon,

You make good points.

If it could be done collegially, many points could be made about the superiority of bristles, but no one can gainsay you for using needles...simply because you have tried and mastered (hopefully) both techniques.

As a shoemaker, I look at your work and admire it. Regardless of how you got there, your shoes are worthy of note.

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And without the recognition that there is a hierarchy of excellence in all things, nothing rises above the level of mundane.[/center]

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Re: "...a great way forward?"

#54 Post by dlskidmore » Thu Feb 07, 2013 7:29 am

Alasdair,

Thank you for those links. I'm finding your website very informative.

Denise

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Re: "...a great way forward?"

#55 Post by poorboy » Thu Feb 07, 2013 7:36 am

i build boots for workers. many of which stand for hours ands days in feed lots. when it is time for new soles and heels it is rare that i cannot use the insoles again. i am able to use the same heel blocks without trouble. i use drywall screws on the suggestion of a worker who sometimes pulls the heels loose on his whites boots and nicks boots. he no longer buys those boots he buys my boots. alot of my clients are working cowboys. some of whom buy my boots because after i rebuilt their old ones from other makers they where more comfortable and better reinforced. i have worn a alot of boots in alot of different trades before i turned to shoemaking. mostly out of frustration with other makers. and the feeling that i had been ripped off. the leather was never thick enough. the fit was sometimes horrible. i have spent alot of money on boots only to be dissapointed. since i have been makig boots only a few have been brought back with such issues. i dont know if my techinique is better than anyone elses but i know that it works. it works so well that i stand behind it with everything that i have.

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Re: "...a great way forward?"

#56 Post by dw » Thu Feb 07, 2013 7:40 am

BTW, for those who are relatively new to the Crispin Colloquy, relatively disengaged, or who suspect they are being persecuted because this whole discussion arose when they were online, all of this is an ancient discussion on the Forum.

Years ago we talked about what celastic brought to the party that a leather toe box hadn't adequately addressed since time out of mind.

My answer has always been nothing except possibly speed. Celastic doesn't make a better toe stiffener; it doesn't have anymore structural integrity than a properly made leather toe stiffener; it won't last any longer; and it increases your exposure to toxic chemicals and drains your pocketbook needlessly.

We went through a similar exercise with regard to iron lasting tacks and shoe nails.

I bring all this up to suggest that when we look at any of these nifty but "experimental" techniques/innovations, we have to ask ourselves "What is gained?" "What is lost?"

The sad thing...as in the case of third-party utility knives...is that often what is lost is something fundamentally critical to the Trade and even the idea of Craftsmanship.

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(Message edited by dw on February 07, 2013)

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Re: "...a great way forward?"

#57 Post by dw » Thu Feb 07, 2013 9:45 am

Poor boy,

Everything you say about your boots, I could say...Jesse Lee Cantrell could say. Every late 19th and early 20th century bootmaker could say.

I make boots for working cowboys. I repair those boots. They come back to me over and over again and the customers tell me they've never had a better fitting or a better wearing boot. I use 10-11 iron insoles and best quality bark tanned (not synthetic tanned) outsoles. I stack my leather heel bases one layer at a time for perfect conformity to the bottom of the boots.

It almost comes down to "he said, she said."

I don't doubt that you make boots for working cowboys. I don't doubt for a minute that it takes a lot of effort to get your heels off. I suspect you are driving a heel puller in between the outsole and the stack with mighty blows of a hammer. My teacher liked finishing nails (same idea)for his heels stacks. In fact, I began my career following his ways.

Over forty years of making boots full time as my sole source of income (for the most part) has seen me abandoned the nails. Why? Because the thing that makes nails hold so well is the very interaction that every bona fide expert on leather chemistry will tell and even common sense real life experience will confirm--the reaction between tannic acid and iron begins a oxidative process. The nails rust and rust is a "slow fire."

I can't count the many, many times I've torn apart a shoe or boot and found the heels seat so brittle and carbonized that it literally crumbled in my hands.

Do you doubt that?

I also found that when I pulled rust bound nailed heels off a boot I was exerting so much pressure and stress that I feared damaging the boot. Especially when the original last was not available or in the boot.

Someone once asked me why I didn't use super glue to build heel stacks or sew my inseams with stainless steel wire.

Part of the devilishly brilliant appeal of traditional techniques is that they optimize the chances of the boots being repaired back to near original quality...even by people who have never made a shoe or boot...and that in itself promises a longer lifetime and greater satisfaction.

Using super glue or stainless steel wire to inseam or iron nails to attach heels makes such consideration more difficult to achieve if not moot.

At a certain point (not saying sheet rock nails are a direct example) every argument we make for cutting corners makes the next argument for cutting even more corners. To the point where the whole notion of leather shoes or boots becomes almost ludicrous. Why not plastic boots with unit heels and soles. Fast, durable, great profit margin (there's that "hunger" issue addressed) and when they wear out, cheap enough to buy another pair.

There's a certain "cognitive dissonance" at work in some of these approaches.

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[center]Without "good" there is no "better," without "better," no "best."
And without the recognition that there is a hierarchy of excellence in all things, nothing rises above the level of mundane.[/center]

(Message edited by dw on February 07, 2013)

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Re: "...a great way forward?"

#58 Post by elfn » Thu Feb 07, 2013 9:54 am

DA, I don't think you're knocking me or what I'm doing. I have physical limitations so I have to take advantage of alternate methods if I'm going to get shoes made at all, even if in a very "hire the handicapped" way. Rick's press idea was exactly what I needed to move my work along and it came at a perfect time. I was working for 10 minutes punching by hand, then I had to stop and pick it up again the next day. There's no way I was going to get a pair of shoes made that way.

I understand the difference between cutting a hole (chisel) and punching a hole (awl, or in my case, crewel needle). The press is replacing my hand and arm and adding leverage to the mix. I still get the same hole as with an awl (spreading the fibers, not cutting them) and I'm comfortable with that. I'm so comfortable with it I'm considering finding or making a small chuckable press I can use on my lap or my work table instead of having to run down to the shop in the wet and cold to use a big piece of motorized equipment I'm not even going to turn on.

As to history, you're correct in saying I haven't studied it in detail. I've studied enough to get the big picture but am not very interested in the chicken/egg discussion. Because I've got an extensive history in sewing, woodworking, leather and physics and come from a family always trying new things and inventing new stuff, and because I'm only doing for myself, I feel comfortable trying different things to see how they work. The above single piece shaper (replaces the various counters in a shoe - see photo of crewel needle in drill press poking holes) is a brilliant example. The resultant glue down/stitch down hybrid shoe is light and flexible yet supportive. It's also so ugly it borders on cute. And it's brilliantly waterproof, the stand in a mud puddle kind of water proof that's essential when you live in the country and walk through wet grass on a regular basis. I've already worn through one set of soles and it's apparent these shoes are going to last a long time.

Are there things I will do differently in the next pair? Absolutely. Did I learn a lot in the process of construction? Definitely. Could I have done it without the support and collective knowledge here in the forum. Not a chance. Did I pick the right materials? Fortunately yes, which is pretty surprising considering materials is the area where I know the least. Will I repeat this set of circumstances? With happiness.

With that said, I'm always thinking of new things I'd like to try. That doesn't mean I'm going to try them all. Life is just too short but I'll spare the traditionalists here heartburn by not sharing the majority of them here.

I can tell you one thing I need to change in pursuit of improvement. I need to soak my leather before I do the stitching. In using dry leather I'm not getting the stitching seated the way it needs to be for best longevity. I'm always mentally adding bits and rearranging my order/method to improve the result, sometimes to the point of killing progress, another detail I need to watch.

Please feel free to not like what I do or how I do it. I know I'm a rebel but I'm a rebel with a clue who enjoys the path less traveled.

Nori

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Re: "...a great way forward?"

#59 Post by elfn » Thu Feb 07, 2013 10:06 am

DW, the work you do truly is art. I'd love it if it were art I could wear, but sadly, no. I have to settle for appreciating what you do and respecting your art.

I'm using stainless to avoid the iron problem when lasting. It took a while to find them, but now that I have, I won't go back.

Nori

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Re: "...a great way forward?"

#60 Post by poorboy » Thu Feb 07, 2013 10:19 am

all of the methods that i use i do so because i feel that they are the best available method. not because of speed or expediency. i put a one piece liner in the quarter panels of my packers not because it is faster or that i feel i am cutting corners. i do because it is comfortable and durable. also because their are not many that can. i make a boot in a boot not because i feel it is faster but becasue i feel it is the best. not every pair is a boot in a boot only the ones that pay for it. some folks i make boots for dont want to spend the money for anything more than a comfortable durable boot. is it cutting corners to make a boot for them and not put a lining in the tops? the foot must be lined. the heel counter must be heavy. the insole heavy but flexible. such boots i build for the price of material alone. mostly to keep one more pair of factory boots off the market. i have no doubt that the craftsman on this forum are of the highest order. when though are you a workingclass shoe and boot maker or a crafstman. one could argue that being workingclass makes you a craftsman but i have found that this isnt allways true. the techniques used in 19th and 20th century shoe are i am sure the best they had at the time. they where also working class and had the sense to look outside of the standards in their trade and seek tools and techniques used by other tradesman in other trades. all in the interest of better more efficient technique

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Re: "...a great way forward?"

#61 Post by das » Thu Feb 07, 2013 11:21 am

DW,

I know you’ll never try them, but others might. D. B Gurney makes solid brass 2 and 2 ½ oz. seat-lasting tacks (same as iron “tingles”, just brass); 10/8 wire nails for heels, so there’s no need for any iron back there even if you use iron heel-plated lasts, and like to nail your seats and heel bases. They even do shorter brass wire nails for knocking-on your rubber top-piece, if you use the ones with holes and washers inside.

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Re: "...a great way forward?"

#62 Post by dw » Thu Feb 07, 2013 11:35 am

DW, the work you do truly is art. I'd love it if it were art I could wear, but sadly, no. I have to settle for appreciating what you do and respecting your art.


Nori,

I appreciate the sentiment and thank you for it.

That said, it almost doesn't signify...if you see what I mean. I have never tried to create works of Art (especially when spelled with a capital "A" ).

I have striven for excellence and refinement in my work...focusing on technique and line and balance and harmony. Transitions, consistency, refinement in the sense of being the opposite of crudeness.

Years ago El Jefe (Dan Freeman) either made a presentation at AGM or somehow passed on to me a maxim that has stuck with me...I don't remember it exactly but it it was all about balance--the balance inherent in a four (?) legged stool.

If I recall correctly each leg represented some critical aspect of making a shoe--longevity, aesthetics, weight, maybe appropriateness to use. It doesn't matter because to some extent you can almost swap aspects in and out of the analogy as long as you bear in mind that it is a four legged stool and each leg is needs to be the same length or the stool will be out of balance and wobble.

All shoemaking...at least on the professional level is like that. Simply because...and this is what a lot of people ignore...shoemaking has been evolving for 10,000 years specifically to meet those criteria. That's not an insignificant consideration.

It is not now, nor ever has been, simply to make the stoutest, most rugged boot you can. Steel or concrete would be the logical choice if it were.

It is not just to decorate the boots so gaudily that eyes bleed.

Or to make it so quickly and cheaply that while you're eating cake, the customer is patching leaks.

That's the almost fatal attraction of making shoes or boots---it begs you to understand and master its complexity and eclecticism.

And when you do it brings out the best in you and prepares you for the next level.

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Re: "...a great way forward?"

#63 Post by dw » Thu Feb 07, 2013 11:46 am

Al,

Silly you! Of course I know about brass lasting tacks as well as "extra brass clinching nails". I often use the latter in lieu of waist pegs when a repair customer doesn't want to pay for re-pegging (never in new construction). They are probably the best of the "dodges" (wasn't that your word?).

If I couldn't get good pegs (I may just have a lifetime supply considering what I have left...pegs and years) I'd switch to brass and never look back. No, I take that back, there'd probably be a lot of heavy sighing for a few years.

For both my shoes and my boots I stitch the waist and heel seat...and have never used lasting tacks for final construction purposes.

My question is, however, what does a brass rivet bring to the party that hardwood pegs don't? Sydney Brinkerhof addressed that issue in his monograph on Frontier Boots...and the torn socks and bleeding feet when the rivets worked their way up into the interior of the boot.

My poem "For want of a Nail..." speaks to the same issues.

So, in some regards, I think brass nails are the answer to a question that never needed to be asked.

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[center]Without "good" there is no "better," without "better," no "best."
And without the recognition that there is a hierarchy of excellence in all things, nothing rises above the level of mundane.[/center]


(Message edited by dw on February 07, 2013)

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Re: "...a great way forward?"

#64 Post by elfn » Thu Feb 07, 2013 11:52 am

It truly is a case of art being in the eye of the beholder, isn't it. I see what you do as art. It doesn't need to be gaudy but it is quintessentially the four legged stool in perfect balance. Art.

Nori

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Re: "...a great way forward?"

#65 Post by dw » Thu Feb 07, 2013 12:23 pm

Nori,

Well, thank you again.

I might qualify my above remarks by quoting myself from a PBS program that was done about me some years ago...

"Art is really about communication. It's a language being used to spread a message or tell a story or pass on an idea. As for myself, I've got nothing to say. All I want to do is make beautiful boots."

(Didn't Kris Kristoferson have a song about "that old silver tongued devil" and where'd he come from?)

Image

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[center]Without "good" there is no "better," without "better," no "best."
And without the recognition that there is a hierarchy of excellence in all things, nothing rises above the level of mundane.[/center]

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Re: "...a great way forward?"

#66 Post by das » Thu Feb 07, 2013 12:26 pm

DW,

Ah, but Brinkerhoff was talking about crummy army boots made by prisoners in Leavenworth, and how the leather desiccated in the desert, and the pegs fell out.

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Re: "...a great way forward?"

#67 Post by elfn » Thu Feb 07, 2013 12:57 pm

I've got a comparison for you that will resonate and give you a bit of insight as to why I consider what you do as art versus what others might see as art.

You've seen the Cydwoq line of footwear, haven't you? On the surface, it's VERY arty but it's a superficial kind of art, the difference between silk roses and the majesty of what mother nature produces. Sure, it looks trendy and cool, but it's imitation art.

When compared to the footwear Cydwoq produces, can you now understand why I consider what you and the other masters on the list do in respecting the four legs of the stool, art? There's a depth to it that can be imitated but not faked. You live it and you breathe it. There's a tremendous amount there to respect.

One more story and then I'll quit picking on you.

There is a equestrian sport called dressage. I've studied it for years and it's a passion for me, not the tepid competitive stuff that is passed off as dressage, but the art. The masters can put a horse on the outside rein and completely drop the inside rein while completing a perfect circle. To me, that's always been the essence of dressage, that level of connection and control. Not the dominance held up as the ideal by the German school, but the collaboration between horse and rider of the Spanish and French schools.

While I can't ride (it's the handicap thing), I CAN drive, and I drove competitively for many years. Not the tame around and around in an arena stuff but the bust ass (pardon my French) cross country stuff where they won't let you play until you can perform a test to prove you're safe and capable. If you follow the horse world it's the driven version of three day eventing. The euphoria from reaching the pinnacle of having my horse on the outside rein in impossible to describe.
15168.jpg
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Are you telling me you don't have that same sense of accomplishment and satisfaction when you complete a perfect pair of boots, that you don't get an intense glow of satisfaction when people who wear your boots sing your praises? I laud you for being modest about your accomplishments but you need to know we understand even if we can't or have no desire to do what you do. I will never be a shoemaker because the need for the art of it isn't in my soul. You will never be anything but an artist because it's integral to your soul.

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Re: "...a great way forward?"

#68 Post by elfn » Thu Feb 07, 2013 1:08 pm

Wince. Sorry. That was the wrong image. That's Niki at Hayfork in CA. This is Niki at Happs.
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Re: "...a great way forward?"

#69 Post by dw » Thu Feb 07, 2013 1:55 pm

Warning...awkward personal revelations ahead.

Many years ago I read a book about the "games" that people play (although I don't think that was the title). The premise was that in life we all choose role--like picking the token we will use to play Monopoly.

IIRC, there was the Hog at the Trough--the person that is focused exclusively on acquisition and making money. The Star of the Show--the person fixated on notoriety and fame. The Game of Power--politics, control, etc.. And about a half dozen others.

One of the games was the Master Game...not master in the sense of being the boss but of mastering techniques, disciplines, skills. The person seeking enlightenment is one of those.

I was young...anything was possible. But it seemed to me that the Master Game was the only one worth playing. And even if I didn't realize it at the time I made my choice. In everything I have ever attempted I have tried with every fiber of my being to become good at. To master it. Sometimes I was wildly successful. Sometimes I failed...although never dismally simply because I had invested so much of myself in it. Learning to play clarinet was one of my failures. I could play. I could even hit notes in the high registers that many far better musicians could not. But I could never relax into the music.

But the important point...the one that bears on this discussion...is that if I have been, to any degree, successful in making beautiful boots it is not because I have ever tried to bypass/dodge the Traditional techniques. To the contrary, every single technique that I worked hard to master, no matter how arcane, has augmented and bolstered my overall understanding and facility with the Trade. It's all of a piece. It's just that simple.

There are not many things in my life that I can speak to with assurance--fly casting/fishing, Single malt Scotch, and shoe/bootmaking. And, of those, I am by no means jedi level, although there are times when I'm making boots and/or shoes, that I "feel the force".

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And without the recognition that there is a hierarchy of excellence in all things, nothing rises above the level of mundane.[/center]

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Re: "...a great way forward?"

#70 Post by dw » Thu Feb 07, 2013 1:59 pm

My apologies for all that. As James Lee Burke said....

"There's no worse curse than approval."

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Re: "...a great way forward?"

#71 Post by elfn » Thu Feb 07, 2013 2:03 pm

there are times when I'm making boots and/or shoes, that I "feel the force".

and may the force be with you . . .

N

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Re: "...a great way forward?"

#72 Post by kemosabi » Thu Feb 07, 2013 5:29 pm

QUOTE: "BTW, for those who are relatively new to the Crispin Colloquy, relatively disengaged, or who suspect they are being persecuted because this whole discussion arose when they were online, all of this is an ancient discussion on the Forum."

DW, I almost can’t tell you how much this statement means to me right now.

The words grief and anguish best describe my feelings of the past few days. Not because I felt picked on, but in my mind the thought that I had demeaned this forum even by accident was unbearable… and unforgivable.

If I don’t have a home here, then where else? Other than my mentor/teacher, this forum is the only place I can express my passion for bootmaking. I’m so sick of that glassy-eyed look I get from folks who just don’t understand that I’ve pretty much quit even telling people what I do.

It’s a great thing to be around folks that already get it…

BTW: I place myself firmly in the “serious student” category. Still got plenty to learn, but it ain’t no hobby for me.

With best regards and a much less burdened mind,

-Nat

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Re: "...a great way forward?"

#73 Post by dw » Thu Feb 07, 2013 6:06 pm

Nat,
but in my mind the thought that I had demeaned this forum even by accident was unbearable… and unforgivable.


Never think it. Never.

Sometimes I feel the same way. Simply because I've never been a "gentleman". Fact is, I'm a rough old cob and pretty black and white in my beliefs. I don't think I really understand the meaning of the word "tact" or "subtle". Not that I wouldn't like to. But even when saying hello, I suspect I come across pretty strong.

And I tend to get on another plane, if you will, and think and speak as if it were all just an impersonal intellectual exercise. Which, if the truth were known, is probably close to an accurate description where I'm at mentally in these discussions. Not that these issues aren't real to me or powerful concerns or that they aren't important to the Guild and the Forum. But sometimes other people just don't share that particular privileged perspective. And I forget that.

And I guess that makes me seem remote sometimes. But you can always PM me. If there's a problem I'll let you know.

So my apologies all around, too.

And no worries, ever.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[center]Without "good" there is no "better," without "better," no "best."
And without the recognition that there is a hierarchy of excellence in all things, nothing rises above the level of mundane.[/center]

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Re: "...a great way forward?"

#74 Post by dw » Fri Feb 08, 2013 7:16 am

So...I suspect this conversation is winding down. In passing a few thoughts:

I'm certain that some thought my allusion to the jedi and "the force" was silly, maybe even off-putting. And maybe it was. But the concept is old, old, old, and very much valid.

I recall an episode of MASH that had a great impact on me. Hawkeye Pierce is just coming off a long stint in the operating unit and he tells a reporter that there are times when they do things in the surgery that are not possible.

Similarly, there are times, that I have done things while making boots that I literally did not know how to do. That I did not think were possible. I suspect....I believe...that if you create the right conditions--striving for understanding and mastery, opening yourself to, whatever you want to call it--God, the divine, the universal creative impulse, the force--it will move through you and change you and allow you to do things you did not think possible.

The reference to the jedi comes from a Speycasting forum where, with wry humour, the rods are equivalent to light sabers and you literally feel the force of the cast being transmitted down the length of the rod.

But it is all of a piece, as I have said. You have to "start as you mean to go" to quote an old British aphorism. If you begin your journey taking shortcuts you will continue to take shortcuts the rest of your life. If you dismiss or ignore the Traditional techniques, the chances are slim to none that you will ever be able to duplicate or even approach the kind of excellence and quality that the "old guys" achieved. And I guarantee you if you look...really look...you'll realize how awe inspiring such work is. I don't know many today, in shoemaking or bootmaking, who are even coming close. I suspect it's simply because we have lost touch with the forces--the materials, the techniques--that generated such work.

A quick example...people think of me as a "Tradtionalist." And in certain circles those people are using the word as a pejorative. No matter, I take it as a compliment despite the fact that I am, in some ways, as contemporary as it gets. I believe that I invented the technique to split a piece of monofilament fishing line to make a bristle. I believe I pioneered, if not invented, the method by which Teklon thread can be tapered to create a Traditional taw. In fact, I was among the early adopters of synthetic inseaming thread, for that matter, and certainly one of its leading proponents. There are any number of other innovations that I have introduced to the Trade...most minor, admittedly but perhaps significant for all of that.

The bottom line, however, is that whether I invented them or not, they are all derivative. They could not exist, no one could have come up with them without a firm and thorough grounding in Traditional techniques. Without all that has gone before.

That said, not every "innovation"/dodge/shortcut/fake is significant, noteworthy, or even really innovative no matter who comes up with them...and the simple reason for that is that they're not connected. Not connected to the history, the intentions, Traditions, or philosophies that inform the Trade.

Start as you mean to go. And go as you mean to end.

That's my advice...to all newbies, all "seekers", all serious students of the Trade....I doubt there can be any better.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[center]Without "good" there is no "better," without "better," no "best."
And without the recognition that there is a hierarchy of excellence in all things, nothing rises above the level of mundane.[/center]




(Message edited by dw on February 08, 2013)

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Re: "...a great way forward?"

#75 Post by farmerfalconer » Fri Feb 08, 2013 1:33 pm

First, I apologize if my much earlier post seemed at all rude. it wasnt meant to be and if it did seem it then I certainly apologize.

Second, What Nat said above pretty much sums up what I wanted to say for the past few days but didnt know how.

The Crispin is great and has helped me a lot.
So, thanks to all,
Cody

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