The Crispin Colloquy

DW,

I had already looked at leatherandgrindery located in the UK, but I was unsure if the bends and pre cut soles they sell were the "real" stuff or if they were 1st grade quality from rendenbach. Also, do you or anyone know if Rendenbach has a minimum order? I heard Lisa Sorell received an unrolled shoulder a while back from rondenbach that she thought worked out good for insoles. Do you know what her final thoughts were on it and if she carries rendenbach?

I didn't realize that leatherandgrindery was in the UK...although with the name it is obvious in retrospect, as no one in the US calls finders "grinderies". Sorry about that.

But a fair number of shoe repairs in the US use Rendenbach so the wholesalers are carrying it...some of them, at least. B. Nelson in New York uses Rendenbach and might be able to sell you a pair or perhaps even point you to their finder.

Try here

Or here

I don't use Rendenbach outsoling myself...I think it is too "flinty." I get Masur chestnut bends from Milton-Sokol. And the insole shoulder I've seen from Rendenbach was not only too flinty but a little thin for my tastes--I like a 10 iron insole (or even a little bit better).

The best insole shoulder in the world is, IMO, Baker (UK) but there again I like it a bit heavier than what is commonly available in the US. Baker will deal direct and ship to the US and can often supply cut insoles or insole shoulders that are heavier than they advertise. But it takes some perseverance and a wait.

I have used some insole shoulder from Warkov-Safeer in Winnipeg. It seems a little soft at first but firms up when it is wet-shaped to the insole. I generally buy it at 16 ounce and split it to my needs...which, from the margins, can also be toe and heel stiffeners. It makes a terrific footbed. Nassar Vries, a shoemaker in Toronto (?) introduced us/me to it.

All the really top notch, cachet stuff, however--Bakers, Rendenbach, Garat--comes from overseas.

I'm getting back into shoemaking (as a hobby), this time hopefully with proper tools and materials. I'm trying to source insole shoulders and sole bends in Europe and having a hard time. Most don't sell to private customers and the ones that do, take 2 weeks to answer a single simple question, while disregarding the rest of my questions (looking at you, Baker).

At the moment I have 2 choices. Baker in England and Fages&Aiglon in France, who supposedly sell Garat&fils insole shoulders (according to Janne Melkersson, they make fantastic insole leather). Again, it seems very hard to get replies to questions about the products from the sellers. I'm almost tempted to buy from Lisa Sorrell, but it would be silly to buy European materials from the U.S.

Does anyone know of any other tanneries/suppliers who will sell to private customers? I'm looking at buying one shoulder and one bend (or pre-cut insoles and soles) and maybe some welts.

I'm getting frustrated as I really want to make shoes, but getting quality materials seems to be ridiculously hard.

It feels good to be back on this forum, it's definitely one of the most interesting corners of the internet.

I ordered from Baker successfully. I am a beginner and individual customer. I say just give them another try or phone them - don't give up. It didn't take too long to deliver to Ireland.

I suggest phoning Bakers; speak with Andrew Parr, the co-owner who runs the tannery. I have found that to be far more successful than trying to email them.

You should also be able to find Rendenbach somewhere. I believe their ortho insole shoulders are softer and less flinty than the regular insole leather, which can be a challenge to hand-stitch.

Also, A&A Crack (Northampton leather merchants) list insole leather as a product they sell; I don't know whose leather they sell, but they are easier to do business with than Bakers.

But, I say give Bakers another try.

I thought I would share this resource with folks here: From what I can see this is a US base grindery that is trying to cater to high end shoe and bootmakers rather than shoe repair. Some beautiful European upper leathers (including vegs) and some unique tools and interesting adjuncts (cement, etc.). And while this may be old hat to some, it is new to me and I respect them for catering a bit upscale, as who should say. I hope they thrive.

Rocky Mountain Leather Supply

Interesting, thanks for sharing!

FWIW,...While this may not be "Great" leather, it is better than most of what is available, esp. in the US...

I have been looking for a good source of insole shoulder for some years...most sources / tanneries sell 'insole bends' rather than the shoulder. Lots of reasons for that but suffice it to say shoulder is what you want.

Sure, you can import insole shoulder from England or France or even Germany. But it is not only a hassle and a wait, it is often dear.

Years ago I bought a lot of Marfil (Mexican) shoulders for my boots. It wasn't Baker but it wasn't bad--it was long fibered (strong for inseaming) and soft enough to make a good footbed--critical characteristics (IMO) that insole bend does not share, even if it is not rolled.

And then my supplier went tips up. I been making do ever since.

Recently, I ran across an outfit that was handling Marfil shoulders--Berger Company. They carry a rolled shoulder and an unrolled shoulder and both can come in a boot weight of roughly 15-16mm...which can then be split for thinner insoles or toe stiffs, etc..

I've used both the rolled and the unrolled. I like them both although most makers would probably prefer the rolled. Both inseam well and make fine insoles. I think I would prefer to make heel and toes stiffeners from the rolled stock, however.

A word of caution--the unrolled is a little softer and has more 'fluff' on the fleshside than something like Baker...but personally I've not found that to be a problem...leave that fluff on there and call it a better 'cork' filling.

Anyway, I am all but retired and cannot create the demand to keep Berger carrying it. I hope this recommend will generate some interest and provide a source for makers that have been as frustrated as I have been...way things are going, good insole shoulder will be a thing of the past before too long, along with the concomitant skill of handwelting.

And after that, y'all will be using leatherboard or paperboard insoles and gemming...just for the lack of a suitable alternative.

Just fired off an email. We'll see how they do!
Thanks for the contact Dee-Dubb!

Adios, Jake

did you get a response? I tried and haven't heard back after about a week.

Try calling. 913-367-3700

bcFour.....nope....will call today!

Thanks for the phone # Dee-Dubb!

Well....follow-up with the Berger Company.

Called to order a couple of the rolled shoulders. Maddie said she would have to check, and would call me back that afternoon. No phone call. So, I called this morning. Now, she says she will have to check with her supervisor.....it's a special order item. She said they were out of the heavy weight shoulders. Bottom line, I ain't impressed. You know they're not going to "special order" two shoulders unless a bunch of us call in and request it. Anyway.....

Guess I'll have to learn the "Goodyear" gemming technique! What is this world coming to?

That's my report! Sorry ladies and gentlemen!

Have a great week!

Jake

Jake,

This ain't the end of it. The owner told me minutes ago--on Tuesday at 11:30AM pacific time--that he would call you to clarify and update you on this. Bottom line is that you may in all probability get your two shoulders. Beyond that, Reed Berger (the owner) needs to solidify the ways and means. He needs to contact the tannery, and he needs to establish a conduit for moving small orders. So hang in there.

In the end, this may turn out to be a wild goose chase but I am hopeful. If it does end up being a dead end, it will be for the same reason it always is--no one, from Hardtke to Milton-Sokol, wants to deal with small orders and futurities and individuals who will not be constant. I saw this coming years and years ago when I tried to establish an HCC Buyer's Consortium. But without something like that, the demand for what we need as bespoke makers will go away permanently.

Shoulder update! Reed Berger just called me and we had a good, long conversation.

He is ordering 16 bundles (two double shoulders per bundle.....and that's the way they will be sold) of the unrolled 9-10 iron (5mm) double shoulders. If the market bears it, he will order more. He seemed like he was sincerely interested in helping us out. Leather will be here in a couple of weeks. Sounded like a nice guy! I may look around the website and see if I can use any other of their leather. Make sure you talk with Maddie when ordering. Boss-man (Reed) does other duties! (913.367.3700)

So.....come on now! Purchase a bundle and let's keep this ball rolling. I don't know what/where everyone is getting their insole leather, but from where I'm sitting, it's getting might slim Pickens!

Thanks again to Dee-Dubb for keeping this rolling.

Unrolled?!

That surprises me...I thought you wanted rolled....

??

Dee-Dubb,

Yeap.....I did.....but he said that you liked the "unrolled" better. I asked him if he was sure about that. Since you had talked with him this morning, I wasn't going to argue. I've never minded that "fluff" on soft shoulders either. We'll see how I like it.

Jake,

Well, I think he heard what he wanted to hear...like most of us...if only because (from what I heard) it is easier for him to get the unrolled than the rolled, esp at 5mm.

As for the fluff...I don't know what all the fuss is about as long as it's not excessive and the 'meat' of the shoulder substance is good. Most makers who worry about this, end up using thinner shoulder and insoles. And/or meticulously paring the loose fiber off and then, after inseaming, filling the forepart with granulated cork. Which, even if it is in a resin or cement matrix is far more 'fugitive' than the fluff. I might be just a dumb old bootmaker but it don't make any sense to me.

Dee-Dubb,

Yes sir....I hear ya! By the way, never met a person who thought you were a "dumb-old-bootmaker"!
Well.....let's get this order and see how we like it! We can always demand "rolled" next time.
Have a good weekend!

Jake

Any word on the price per bundle?

homeboy wrote: ↑Wed Oct 30, 2019 11:46 am Dee-Dubb,

Yes sir....I hear ya! By the way, never met a person who thought you were a "dumb-old-bootmaker"!
Well.....let's get this order and see how we like it! We can always demand "rolled" next time.
Have a good weekend!

Jake

Well, while I'm sure that there are some who believe that (and worse) I did say "might be." No worries, it's just a saying...a sort of inside joke, as who should say. Goes back to Band of Brothers, the movie....

George wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2019 8:56 pm Any word on the price per bundle?

Well, that's the question, isn't it? Two double shoulders won't be cheap, though. But perhaps cheaper than ordering from across the pond.

It's worth noting, however, that because the HCC is a non-profit organization talk of prices is a touch-y subject and while perhaps not absolutely verboten (except in cases where personal profit is involved) it's a subject best broached cautiously.

No mention of prices. When I hear something, I'll post that I know. People interested can then email me. Like D.W. mentioned, prices are a NO-NO!

Jake

To All.....Our shipment of Marfil shoulders finally arrived at Berger Company. They are "rolled" shoulders, so they're gonna be firmer than you're used to most likely. I do not have a price yet! They are sorting and weighing bundles as we speak. I'll have some more information very soon.

Thanks! Jake

homeboy wrote: ↑Tue Dec 10, 2019 5:40 pm To All.....Our shipment of Marfil shoulders finally arrived at Berger Company. They are "rolled" shoulders, so they're gonna be firmer than you're used to most likely. I do not have a price yet! They are sorting and weighing bundles as we speak. I'll have some more information very soon.

Thanks! Jake

Jake,

I don't mind either one--rolled or unrolled. I think the rolled might be marginally better for heel stiffeners, but I split shoulders for all kinds of purposes and use 'as is' for insoles. Glad you hung in there.